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Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Shin-Ra
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Posted - 2008.08.19 10:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 19/08/2008 10:32:56
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 19/08/2008 10:32:29
can1 some1 plz explain me fast why any1 should use turrets over missiles when it comes to long range fightng?
this is more a PVE question.
been in a few lvl4 missis yesterday with a mate. we were fighting sanchas and somehow i hated to see his cruise missiles doing pretty nice and "regular" dmg with just a few misses (due to defender missiles) while my 1200 scout arties producing random damage and missis one after another.
jeah i know ... this seems like another whine thread but its realy just a question. whats the purpose of using large arties?
i remember alpha strikes before the armor buff came. my arties seemed to be far better back the old days. did they change anything else after the armor buff?
PS: just reactivated my account 1 month ago. |
MeGrand
Gallente
Life INC
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:11:00 -
[2]
Hum...
1) instant damage - kind of situation dependant - quite handy for poppuing mw drive frigs in PvE
2) Longer range.... i think (don't know after new missile skills)
3) Damage is heavily dependent on the skills you need lots more gunnery point to equal fewer missiles points (odd but still true, even if less so than it was)
hopes this is a start... |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:37:00 -
[3]
Yes, all advantages of turrets are mostly negated in mission grinding, where tactics are virtually non-existent. Missile platforms are much more efficient in this.
Plus, you compare missiles to the worst of the turrets. Artillery, which used to be an alpha-strike shock weapon was not a good choice for PvE, even when alpha-striking was viable. It has lowest optimal, tracking and DPS of all long-range turrets.
If you were fighting those Sanshas in Abaddon, you could probably see better results. Still, missiles PWN NPCs, because NPCs have no brains to evade or warpout.
PvP is completely different though. |
Yarpen
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:37:00 -
[4]
Well jsut like previous poster replied: for gunnery to be effective you need WAAAAY more skill points! Tracking is an issue with artillery so if you dont have a tracking computer or dont know everything about the tracking (read the guide as it is really good) you wont be able to hit often. Another thing is that if you fight sansha then you dont have the means to deal pure EM/Thermal dmg like your friend in a raven.
I love my artillery ships but to be honest I would prefer to use a raven for missions due to tracking. I can outdmg raven in some cases but when enemies come too close or too fast I am still a sittin duck waiting to be killed. Artillery has some serious tracking issues if you dont know how to use them and are the toughest type of guns to use in Eve.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:21:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Derek Sigres on 19/08/2008 12:26:57
As a rule, to get by in PVE you don't need many missile skills (you really only need standard missiles until you can use HML's and then you use those until you can use cruise missiles). Missile ships often do less damage than turret ships but they make up for it in PVE with a flexible damage type (often masked by the caldari preference for Kinetic damage - the raven's ROF bonus means any missile can be used effectively). While missile ships generally won't the be "best" choice for any particular group of rats they often represent the second best choice. As an example, Amarr battleships are the best choice for level 4 missions against Sansha/Blood but the raven and it's cousins (The Raven Navy Isue and the Golem) are distinctly the second best.
All of that goes out the window in PVP though. It's fairly easy to spec for a specific role for a specific ship thanks to the lack of requisite T2 skills for smaller missile classes. The downside is, short of rockets you will pretty much need T2 of every launcher type if you hope to fly all the ships in the caldari lineup effectively. In PVP the assertion that you need less SP to be effective with missiles is an incorrect assumption made because of PVE. The realities are it takes twice as many SP to train the missile line through to T2 (to battleship) as it does to train any other weapon line - support skills to level IV (More than 7 million SP for missiles versus under about 3.5 for guns). Those support skills (often ignored by people making the assertion that they take less SP) are incredibly important with missiles since your only options to increase stats like explosion velocity/radius (the missile equivalent of tracking) are rigs and skills. Not to menotion getting those oft quoted figures (40km torps from a raven?) require maxing out your range skills whereas many turret ships don't absolutely need the falloff skill. |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Shin-Ra
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 19/08/2008 12:44:50
i got quite good skillz in gunnery i think. just missing large proj. and sharpshooter lvl5 for my tech2 arties. so i cant be that bad in gunnery skillz ;)
ok, guess i realy throw the maelstrom away and do my missions in my phoon aggain.
t2 autos, barrage and 4 crusie missiles should gimme enuff range to deal with those pesky 45km orbiting NPCs. |
Dr Sheepbringer
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:47:00 -
[7]
I just tried rails again after a period of blaster + drones and found out that even my small rails are killing machines now! Compared to when I last used. Gunnery skills, lot's of them.
Thus...also helps that now i have the same range with antimateria's than I had with iron in the past. Suprisingly you get more damage done :) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:48:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
In PVP the assertion that you need less SP to be effective with missiles is an incorrect assumption made because of PVE. The realities are it takes twice as many SP to train the missile line through to T2 (to battleship) as it does to train any other weapon line - support skills to level IV (More than 7 million SP for missiles versus under about 3.5 for guns).
This should automatically be entered into every nonsense post that whines on about missiles being easier to train. In PVP, it's a complete myth and the opposite is actually true. I have 8.5 mill SP in missiles and I still can't use T2 HMLs or T2 Cruise.  |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
In PVP the assertion that you need less SP to be effective with missiles is an incorrect assumption made because of PVE. The realities are it takes twice as many SP to train the missile line through to T2 (to battleship) as it does to train any other weapon line - support skills to level IV (More than 7 million SP for missiles versus under about 3.5 for guns).
This should automatically be entered into every nonsense post that whines on about missiles being easier to train. In PVP, it's a complete myth and the opposite is actually true. I have 8.5 mill SP in missiles and I still can't use T2 HMLs or T2 Cruise.
I'm in the same boat - except I can't use T2 torps yet. I assume you must have a few of those long train support skills to V or have fully spec'd in a missile class or two. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:36:00 -
[10]
Yeah, I've been working on support skills lately. Warhead Upgrades V was a drag, and Missile Projection V wasn't much fun either. Now I'm on Missile Bombardment V to get as much range on Cerberus as possible - although I'm using Jav HAMs right now because I don't have T2 Heavies yet. 
The only "irrational" SP investment there is HAM Spec V... although it is nice to know that my Drake's HAM damage output cannot be surpassed.  |
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:54:00 -
[11]
I'm going to keep it "clean" for all you e-stalkers out there
In short, artillery is a high alpha, low DPS gun with awful tracking and clip size which makes it not such a good choice in PvE, ever.
Missiles do the same damage every time, have no tracking issues, and sport a somewhat larger clip where you can change your damage types appropriate to the rats. Flight time certainly doesn't play a huge factor in PvE. They're also loads easier to fit.
Basically, missiles have, and always will, rule PVE*.
*Denotes amarr laserboats pew pewing amarr rats |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:59:00 -
[12]
having highest alpha ... *noted
sux for PVE ... *noted
go missiles for PVE ... *noted
dislike ccp for crappy arties *done |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:10:00 -
[13]
It sucks for pvp too, lowest DPS long range gun with bad tracking and low clip size = fail.
Small ones can be marginally useful, medium and large = shit. |
Queen Margaret
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:20:00 -
[14]
missiles do so much damage, most people never have to switch from cruises. they use cruises for everything and anything. contrast that to long range guns, they are good only for ships more than 40km out.... or large ships with 0 transversal |
Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:24:00 -
[15]
quick answer is he was hitting them against their lowest resist you werent.
If you were using lasers you'd have been hitting them against their 2 lowest resists for pretty decent damage. If you were using mega pulse in an apoc you'd have done significantly more damage than you were doing using arties. arties suck against sansha. |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2008.08.20 03:37:00 -
[16]
Just a shout in defense of artillery. I fly a mael for pve w/ 1400 II and a TP. Yes, a target painter. I teamed up with my friend in a golem and was able to kill the targets only slightly slower then he could. I held my own. I have roughly 7 million sp in gunnery.  |
Annowyn
Domini Umbrus
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.20 04:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Just a shout in defense of artillery. I fly a mael for pve w/ 1400 II and a TP. Yes, a target painter. I teamed up with my friend in a golem and was able to kill the targets only slightly slower then he could. I held my own. I have roughly 7 million sp in gunnery.
I do pretty well in mine as well, but on the same note I skilled up for a lolerskates raven, just to try. Yeah. I feel like a tool for ever defending the maelstrom in PVE vs a raven. |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.20 04:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Just a shout in defense of artillery. I fly a mael for pve w/ 1400 II and a TP. Yes, a target painter. I teamed up with my friend in a golem and was able to kill the targets only slightly slower then he could. I held my own. I have roughly 7 million sp in gunnery.
Golem has so many advantages over any Matar ship that I don't really buy it.
I have a good bit more in gunnery, maxxed on projectiles except for spec's at 4, and I wouldn't even fly one in a mission over a raven-variant ship. They work, but they don't compete with Golems, heh. |
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