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Who's for confineing caps to 0.0 only?

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Author	Topic
kiteraaa	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:31:00 - [1] Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol
Tiuwaz Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:03:00 - [2] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 20/08/2008 01:03:27 I wouldnt shed a tear if they removed them althogether and yes i do possess caps myself. But just barring them from lowsec is a bad idea imo. it would greatly harass cap players while not really improving the gameplay of others. There must be a better solution to it tough.
Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:23:00 - [3] Hotdropping in 0.0 is appropriate because?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:27:00 - [4] Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang
Kailiao The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Alex Salas Hotdropping in 0.0 is appropriate because? Well the fact that that let's say %75 of all cap warfare pos killin, lag fests happen?
Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Kailiao Originally by: Alex Salas Hotdropping in 0.0 is appropriate because? Well the fact that that let's say %75 of all cap warfare pos killin, lag fests happen? assuming you 75% figure is correct, adding the other 25% accomplishes what? should lag only be the province of 0.0 and jita? i am sorry but if you see a cyno that is not yours i believe its time to cut losses and run unless you have cap back-up as well. or is that the real heart of the matter, the lack thereof?
Kailiao The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:32:00 - [7] The Op has a point, even tho it doesn't delve into detail. This will be a semi-long post, to explain my point of view. I started playing eve just over 3 months after beta, have 56m skill points, i took a total of about 8 months off to get my rl shit together, anyway back to the point. I was there for the duel ab, mwd nerf, the dam mods nerf, that crazy torp nerf, the sniper nerf, the nano typhoon nerf, the warp to 0 change, ect ect... But nothing made as big an impact as the addition of capital ships, witch resulted in a surge in large scale pvp, the need to move fast (nano), a need to support big expensive slow moveing ships, with all kinds of smaller ships, thus creating blob warfare on a massive scale, and quite frankly the lack of inovative ship layouts, that once made you feared or an easy kill. I remember a time when going into low-sec to hunt, was a big thing, where piolets and pirate corps, and anti-pies or the like made names for them selves, with unimaginable ship lay-outs, with how the ** did i die so fast skills, and the rush of the small scale slug fests, the honor of the duel, and element of surprise. Gone are the days of jumping into a rifter, or af, for a couple of hours of hunting miners, or outher pirates in belts, knowing that each fight would be a good one. Gone are the days of a good duel between rival pirate corps, where the corps best 2 piolets proved who was to be feared around that region. Gone are the days of increadable videos of small scale/solo bs mayham. I think you get my drift heh. Now my low-sec life consists of fiting my faction fitted abso, astarte, mega or geddon, i say faction, becouse i want to survive for more than 30 seconds against, let's see, my last abso loss consisted of 2 thano's, an archon, 13 mixed bs's, 3-4 ew support ships, and some frigs and cruisers, i was out solo, and yes i was the intended target :( There was nothing i could do to fight back or even offer a challenge, and i accept that, said GF and went back to re-fit, only to lose a little more respect for the players i fight against. It's rare that me and my mates have a good 5v5, 10v10 fight anymore, i don't really know why except for the fact that, i guess players have gotten lazy in thinking of ship-layouts, fit the fotm nano fit, or just train and save up for that capital ship, that takes little skill to do well in. Players don't relize that a little time and effert, on lay-outs some core skills, and the will to just say ** it, and lay it all on the line, and rip shit up, could lead to some amazing fights, and respect to be given and had. In outher words you don't need a capital to take out that bs, you don't need 20 mates to take out 2, and you don't need massive amounts of ew, and or nano fits to survive a battle. I love this game, i really do, but it's going down-hill, but i will ride down with it, becouse wow sucks ass, and it's clones are even worse So if you see me and my mates flying, with-out capital support, with out or very little ew, in a small gang lookin for trouble, or even solo, get some of your mates or come at me solo, and let's see what all that time, isk, and skill, you possess is all about PS i trained for, and saved for a thanatos, got 10 kills, flew it 3 days, then sold it, god that was boreing lol, so no you have never flown one flames :)
Kailiao The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Alex Salas Originally by: Kailiao Originally by: Alex Salas Hotdropping in 0.0 is appropriate because? Well the fact that that let's say %75 of all cap warfare pos killin, lag fests happen? assuming you 75% figure is correct, adding the other 25% accomplishes what? should lag only be the province of 0.0 and jita? i am sorry but if you see a cyno that is not yours i believe its time to cut losses and run unless you have cap back-up as well. or is that the real heart of the matter, the lack thereof? See you have proven my post, i don't run, i fight and win, or die, and warp my little pod home, why play a game when all you do is spend your time running, and none of it blowing shit up, isn't that what eve is all about? All i'm saying is that i want a little bit of a challenge, a little bit of reward for my down-time makein isk, my alliance has 20+ caps, it's just we never use em, lol, well that's not true they make excellent shooting dummies, for our lay-outs. Haveing 10000 caps proves nothing mate, geting into a bs, or something smaller, to make a corp cut and run, takes skill. And why the jab at me? At least we are a little creative about our corp name, how long did it take you to come up with that, lol.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:41:00 - [9] I'd be okay with limiting them to 0.0 or just removing them completely.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:07:00 - [10] Edited by: Soporo on 20/08/2008 03:07:37 I really can't see many people arguing hard against this ide, tbh. All things Cap/Pos/Sov generally blows, imo. Know why all these caps are popping up all over? Naturally more peeps are able to get into them of course, but mainly I suspect it's the root cause of SOOOO many problems now: Overcrowding. We, everyone needs more freekin room.

Alex Salas BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Kailiao Originally by: Alex Salas Originally by: Kailiao Originally by: Alex Salas Hotdropping in 0.0 is appropriate because? Well the fact that that let's say %75 of all cap warfare pos killin, lag fests happen? assuming you 75% figure is correct, adding the other 25% accomplishes what? should lag only be the province of 0.0 and jita? i am sorry but if you see a cyno that is not yours i believe its time to cut losses and run unless you have cap back-up as well. or is that the real heart of the matter, the lack thereof? See you have proven my post, i don't run, i fight and win, or die, and warp my little pod home, why play a game when all you do is spend your time running, and none of it blowing shit up, isn't that what eve is all about? All i'm saying is that i want a little bit of a challenge, a little bit of reward for my down-time makein isk, my alliance has 20+ caps, it's just we never use em, lol, well that's not true they make excellent shooting dummies, for our lay-outs. Haveing 10000 caps proves nothing mate, geting into a bs, or something smaller, to make a corp cut and run, takes skill. And why the jab at me? At least we are a little creative about our corp name, how long did it take you to come up with that, lol. caps play a tactical role in this game. I am personally not fond of hot dropping because its erroneous judgment to be utilized in such a fashion, but if that is they want to play... the people that liberally hot drop might get caught with their pants down against an opponent. Confining caps doesn't resolve the issue, you still have nanos, and blobs. I see you are nostalgic for BS fights, i have no answer for you. you want quality fight, unfortunately quality players are slowly trickling out. at the end of the day CCP caters to the masses and it is unfortunately at 4-9 month players that get a hard on because they can just fly a BS. And I didn't come up with the corp name, it was through a merger process that i had to accept.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:45:00 - [12] When I first started this game I couldn't wait to partake in a fleet battle. The IDEA of fleet combat seems so magical with dozens of ships tearing into another, support and counter support doing their best to turn the tide and so forth. Then I actually went to a fleet battle and found out that my entire idea of what a fleet battle is was a load of crap. Fleet warfare sucks, and it sucks HARD. In smaller scale battles individual players can swing the tide of the battle one way or another and your own ship fitting can be the key between living and dying. In a fleet battle your survival or destruction has nothing to do with what you fit on your ship, how many friends you have with you, what sort of support you have or anything of that nature - instead it's luck. If you get called primary you die, if you don't you live. It's russian roulette with spaceships. To top it all off, the game prohibits the use of any fancy tactics that might make fleet combat the least bit interesting. Lag means the best you can hope for is locking a target, mashing F1-f8 and hoping for the best. Eve PVP truly shines at the 1v1 - 10 v 10 range - and by and large a good chunk of PVP happens in this happy zone. I'm willing to accept that it's going to be hard getting a fair fight to ever happen (Because, as the mantra goes if you find yourself in a fair fight your doing it wrong), but anything that naturally pushes required numbers past this ten man fleet range is silly. Capital ships tremendous firepower to take down, and for every capital ship that takes the field you need a support fleet. Capital ships are, by and large necissary only because of POS's. Dreds kill POS's, a support fleet keeps the dreds alive, carriers support the fleet, titans BBQ the universe. Fleet warfare is little more than a display of wealth by alliances and 0.0 warfare amounts to little more than wars of finanical attrition anyway. Soverignty and all that jazz is just meaningless fluff - it doesn't really change how the system works. But it appears my desiers are silly - when I started Eve solo BS fights were common place and when I got jumped by a pirates it was by one or two pirates (not the half dozen or more that I see when friends and I decide to head into lowsec). The Developers frown on the idea that Eve can (or even should) be played solo and brick by brick they have removed the components that allowed solo PVP to truly thrive (Just since I Started playing 2.5 years ago it's been Nos Nerf, ECM nerf, Damp Nerf, sensor booster nerf and coming shortly the nano nerf). Being a caldari player I have never been able to really "solo" effectively but these days it takes a 3 man gang just to cover the angles (Ewar, DPS and tackle). So, I'd say that yes, the entire cap ship line might as well be fully restricted to 0.0 pvp. Their real purpose lies in the dark and scary regions where POS's need to be popped and placed and blobs are required to conduct legitimate business. In LowSec (and FW) they do little but unbalance the last bastion of all that is "good" about eve PVP.
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 20/08/2008 01:03:27 I wouldnt shed a tear if they removed them althogether and yes i do possess caps myself. But just barring them from lowsec is a bad idea imo. it would greatly harass cap players while not really improving the gameplay of others. There must be a better solution to it tough. Qft. I'd like to see a short range cyno blocker tbh.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Derek Sigres Beautiful post. That's a beautiful way to sum up the issue.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Liang Nuren Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang I remember pre-T2 even. . .but ya, it would be an improvement. . .however, my carrier is so so useful - living in 0.0 would be a real pain without one.
Ambrosious Martin Son of Man	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang Almost cant agree more. I just think they need to get rid of Soveriengty, and conquerable systems should not be determined by the number of POS's you have... The whole POS blob effect is lame, super lame... Who wants to do a POS repping OP? Just have conquerable stations and control bunkers in 0.0 like FW does for system Sov.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Derek Sigres Nice Post Seriously. Great post. -Liang
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:26:00 - [18] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/08/2008 04:26:37 Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I remember pre-T2 even. . .but ya, it would be an improvement. . .however, my carrier is so so useful - living in 0.0 would be a real pain without one. Then buff jump freighters and make capital ship bpc's (very rare) faction drops from lvl 5 missions. Mothership/Titan BPC's come strictly from top officer spawns (and even very rare). -Liang
Scathain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:35:00 - [19] I dont think removing caps is the smart thing todo, a total redesign would be best. Titans get a super weapon that deals massive damage to one target, POS, other Cap ship, bs or frigate, up to your titan pilot. They also become mobile stations requiring some upkeep. Carriers and Moms i dont care if they got removed, yes susport ships are good, but the hot dropping is a pain in the ass. a change needs to be made here. Dreads, dont have a problem with POS busting. POSes and 0.0 claims need to be addressed, POS warfare is ruining eve.
Relicc Caldari House InVisus	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:26:00 - [20] I wouldn't mind getting rid of caps either, but they're here. I have thought for a while now that caps are just too affordable, even though Iv never had enough money to buy one. The only thing I really like about them is their logistics ability, and maybe I would like them more if there weren't so many of them. I remember when seeing one actually meant something.

Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:27:00 - [21] Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol assault frigate!??!?! are you kidding me? cant you warp before he locks you :\|... gawd it would take him a minute... and even if your fighting another AF, one of you would be dead before the carrier locks on :P also.. hells no, i wish more people hotdrpped carriers in low sec!!! woot to carrier kills
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:50:00 - [22] I'm all for it but it should be accompanied by a small change to the way they are fitted (eg. let all capital ships fit on themself, in space)
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:24:00 - [23] They could just limit the ability of caps to interfere in sub-cap fights so they wouldn't really be useful for hot dropping. It does seem like carriers in particular are starting to encroach on small scale fights too much. Titans and moms can do it too but you don't throw that around without serious backup. Dreads on the other hand seem perfect. Their ability to fight sub-caps is quite limited out of the box and while there's some fun to be had with a huggin full of webs and lasers, you can't just throw the dread around as a sub cap fight ender.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Liang Nuren Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang wow, risky statement, but id have to agree x) i mean u cant get much more boring than pos n cap warfare
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Kailiao ---stuff--- I understand what you mean, but I think you're wrong about the cause of it. What caused players to blob? Players themselves. When there's a conflict between groups of players, the weakest side will seek allies to reverse the odds, the other side will do the same when he'll lose hte upper hand, and so on. This in the nature of blobbing, and this is a social trait inherent to human nature. Nothing will change that. What cause people to use excessive means to carry a goal (as in, using big hammers to swat a bunch of flies)? Human nature, again. You might say that using overwhelming numbers is an horizontal way of achieving superiority, while using bigger, more potent ships is a vertical way of doing the same. Capital ships aren't the cause of the woes afflicting pvp, they're only some of the tools by which those woes are expressed.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Derek Sigres When I first started this game I couldn't wait to partake in a fleet battle. The IDEA of fleet combat seems so magical with dozens of ships tearing into another, support and counter support doing their best to turn the tide and so forth. Then I actually went to a fleet battle and found out that my entire idea of what a fleet battle is was a load of crap. Fleet warfare sucks, and it sucks HARD. In smaller scale battles individual players can swing the tide of the battle one way or another and your own ship fitting can be the key between living and dying. In a fleet battle your survival or destruction has nothing to do with what you fit on your ship, how many friends you have with you, what sort of support you have or anything of that nature - instead it's luck. If you get called primary you die, if you don't you live. It's russian roulette with spaceships. To top it all off, the game prohibits the use of any fancy tactics that might make fleet combat the least bit interesting. Lag means the best you can hope for is locking a target, mashing F1-f8 and hoping for the best. Eve PVP truly shines at the 1v1 - 10 v 10 range - and by and large a good chunk of PVP happens in this happy zone. I'm willing to accept that it's going to be hard getting a fair fight to ever happen (Because, as the mantra goes if you find yourself in a fair fight your doing it wrong), but anything that naturally pushes required numbers past this ten man fleet range is silly. Capital ships tremendous firepower to take down, and for every capital ship that takes the field you need a support fleet. Capital ships are, by and large necissary only because of POS's. Dreds kill POS's, a support fleet keeps the dreds alive, carriers support the fleet, titans BBQ the universe. Fleet warfare is little more than a display of wealth by alliances and 0.0 warfare amounts to little more than wars of finanical attrition anyway. Soverignty and all that jazz is just meaningless fluff - it doesn't really change how the system works. But it appears my desiers are silly - when I started Eve solo BS fights were common place and when I got jumped by a pirates it was by one or two pirates (not the half dozen or more that I see when friends and I decide to head into lowsec). The Developers frown on the idea that Eve can (or even should) be played solo and brick by brick they have removed the components that allowed solo PVP to truly thrive (Just since I Started playing 2.5 years ago it's been Nos Nerf, ECM nerf, Damp Nerf, sensor booster nerf and coming shortly the nano nerf). Being a caldari player I have never been able to really "solo" effectively but these days it takes a 3 man gang just to cover the angles (Ewar, DPS and tackle). So, I'd say that yes, the entire cap ship line might as well be fully restricted to 0.0 pvp. Their real purpose lies in the dark and scary regions where POS's need to be popped and placed and blobs are required to conduct legitimate business. In LowSec (and FW) they do little but unbalance the last bastion of all that is "good" about eve PVP. Umm, i dont think anyone cldve ever put that better.. The sad thing is theres jack all ccp can do to fix this kinda thing nowadays..
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Relicc I wouldn't mind getting rid of caps either, but they're here. I have thought for a while now that caps are just too affordable, even though Iv never had enough money to buy one. The only thing I really like about them is their logistics ability, and maybe I would like them more if there weren't so many of them. I remember when seeing one actually meant something. lol yeah It was like eh look guys theirs a friendly chimera on the station! oohhh shiny
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:56:00 - [28] Actually I'll go contrarian here... What we need is the t2 pos's and the t2 capital ships... First, some of these are already in the database such as the t2 moon harvester arrays... 2nd we need the t2 tier 3 bs, the "anticapital" ship... These can come in two levels... The first will have a "anticyno mod" or "cyno-blocker" mod. The second will get large bonus's to killing caps ... NOTE: the t2 capital ships (carriers and dreads) don't have to have combat bonus's or uber resistances, just some type of niche role... By introducing t2 pos's (again, they don't necessarily have to have a combat role--perhaps they could be system bunkers with a small leadership role to the alliancemates in system), you can increase the output of rare t2 material such as dysprosium... Next, the t2 capital ships will extend the life of invention and manufacturing and R and D as they can only be invented from a bpc... Some suggested roles and ideas from t2 pos's and capital ships... T2 pos's only can be anchored in .4 systems and moon mine there... T2 pos's offer bonus's to alliance leadership to friendlies in the same system T2 pos's offer better rates of time for lab and manufacturing arrays T2 pos's offer better % on the refine rate for reprocessing T2 pos's have more cpu so large towers OTHER than caldari can fit max-reaction set-ups T2 carriers and dreads can jump farther at the cost of more isotopes T2 carriers and dreads get slightly better mass and agility, like 2.5% per level T2 dreads get an extra pos role destruction bonus so blob warfare is less as you can pop pos's faster T2 carriers get larger ship bays so you can move more ships to the battle T2 carrier and dreads get one more slot total than t1 counterparts
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:05:00 - [29] nah, t2 capitals is a little..creepy
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:20:00 - [30] POS, for me, was the worst thing CCP ever did. Sure, they have added a lot to the game. But i dont think CCP ever inviasged the scale of change they would create. As with a lot of changes, there not really thought out that well. There good ideas on paper, but when they get released, they spiral out of control. I dont think anyone thought there would be tens of thousands of POS. The same way they didnt think there would be a shed load of Titans when they got introduced. POS were too hard to kill with BS. It was doable, but sucked. I think limiting POS would have helped. So you didnt need to control 51% of the moons, or have a gazzilion POS. I mean killing 1 or 2 POS with BS is ok, killing 20-30 is a joke. With regards to how the game has changed, its only natural for things to progress. The good old days are long gone im afraid. But no change has had the impact that POS and CAPS have had. Where as most changes merely mean a change to tactics or fittings. They have made it so you HAVE to fly caps and have pos. You can kill caps with BS etc yes. But you cant kill a cap fleet with anything but another cap fleet. Well it would be possible maybe, but the system would never support enough ships to kill the cap fleet :) Small scale combat is all but dead. Caps and Pos are one of the big factors of this. However, banning caps from low sec will not change this one bit. This is the way things are, they will only get worse. After a ship that can decimate a non cap fleet...mayeb we will have a ship that can deciamte a cap fleet As much as i miss the old days of eve, its unavoidable that they have gone. We have practiacally the same amount of space as when the game started. But 4+ times the amount of players online at a guess? Pretty sure was around 5k players mostly when i started, 10k at a push. All we can do is adapt to the mechanics in play. I cant see CCP roolign back to 2004-5 somehow

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