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Who's for confineing caps to 0.0 only?

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Author	Topic
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Romulus Maximus I cant see CCP roolign back to 2004-5 somehow I wasn't even born back then :(
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Gimpb on 20/08/2008 12:40:49 Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Liang Nuren Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang wow, risky statement, but id have to agree x) i mean u cant get much more boring than pos n cap warfare That's for sure. I know I've often wished I was in the cap fleet as opposed to the support fleet because the support fleet's boredom made the cap fleet's boredom seem exciting. I think there was a blog or post or something recently where they talked about a revamp they're considering for the sov system. It sounded like they were talking about changing the deciding factor from posses in system to some sort of control over the gates. If nothing else, hopefully that would at least remove the need to pos spam.
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Romulus Maximus I cant see CCP roolign back to 2004-5 somehow I wasn't even born back then :( Ok..a week beofre POS then
Sollac	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:44:00 - [34] Edited by: Sollac on 20/08/2008 12:45:34 Interesting thread and heres my point of view from living in low sec. In our little part of the EVE universe we play our role and protect those from the bad guys....(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) Now its very rare for a capital to appear as its only normally when we out number them. Mostly the BS and smaller ships are used to great effect, and recently we have had some good fights with losses on both sides. we have found recently that capital ships, mainly carriers are used in the middle of the battle when the killed player returns to scare us away from his loot. We do have our capital fleet in system but it is rarely used. I do thing that capital ships currently require either a blob of bs's to kill them or other caps. I do think that an anti-capital battleship would be a good idea, with a decent bonus to damage output and damage resistances. i think thou (using Amarr as an example) a t2 abaddon with the ability and cap/cpu to fit a full rack of tachyons would be awesome....but then i can dream...any one got any tissues.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:59:00 - [35] Eve forums deleted my first post because it took too long to write so I hope I donÆt sound complacent in this. In response to the two epic posts in this thread, I agree with your points, but I hope you will spend the time to read this too. The problems with eve today are nothing to do with CCP, the playerbase are alone responsible for the decline which we have seen. When solo battleship combat was around nobody had maxed skills and nobody knew which specific ship was the best. There were only 4k people on the server when I first played eve so these massive fleet battles we see today simply could not exist and you could fly solo because you werenÆt likely to meet a large gang of people, and even if you did, nobody had EFT then and the fittings on ships were insane, some brilliant some dreadful. But that aspect of the fun of eve is gone now, not because CCP have balanced everything, but because thereÆs too many people looking for the perfect fitting. There never was the æÆperfect shipÆÆ like there is now, people didnÆt moan about balance, people accepted it was the way eve was. Even removing the eve servers and replacing them with the 2003 servers with the 38k players we have today would not solve any of the issues, it would just make them worse. People would find the æÆbestÆÆ ship in the game and then everybody would fly it, I guess it did happen for a while with the gank geddons with 8 heat sinks, but it took longer for people to catch on with such a small playerbase. Addressing the issues about POS and capital ships: In the first week of playing eve, I remember remarking how it would be cool to own your own station, and while being only a very little bit closer to that dream, my desires were not alone in eve, people wanted to own their own stations and in the 2003 climate the playerbase was simply too small to support something like that but the desire for it meant that stations would come into the game one way or another. Also some stats on the minmatar titan, the leviathan, were released and people wanted that brought into the game, and it wasnÆt as good at combat as a battleship! Tbh it was basicly a rorqual, very large cargohold (round half a million m3 I think) and enough slots to easily cover a mining op in 0.0. Though I donÆt think anybody then could have imagined what capital ships would become today. Addressing the original post briefly: Removing capital ships from lowsec removes all 0.0 logistics, gate camps will go up on every 0.0 to lowsec/highsec gate worse than it is already and it will just lock all small time alliances or corps out of 0.0 completely to solve an almost non existent problem. I guess overall my point is that eve had to end up at this destination, but I feel safe in the knowledge that this is not the final destination of eve, so IÆll just say; IÆm happy to have played eve in 2003, somewhat sad that I wont ever play it again but glad to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
Relicc Caldari House InVisus	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:25:00 - [36] Edited by: Relicc on 20/08/2008 13:26:00 Yea, I remember when eve celebrated breaking the 15k people online at once mark. Maybe ccp could add a few..dozen new regions to spread us out.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:32:00 - [37] Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol LOL. While I agree with respect that hot drops are horrible, I do like the transport ability of Carriers in low sec. What if Carriers were just turned into giant logistics ships, like the dev post from long ago suggested? Problem solved. The real problem here isn't caps in low sec. Look at dreads. How many times does a dread get hot dropped on a BS? I'm guessing slim to none. Carriers just need to be nerfed into logistics and ship transport ships and thats it.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:43:00 - [38] Originally by: murder one Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol LOL. While I agree with respect that hot drops are horrible, I do like the transport ability of Carriers in low sec. What if Carriers were just turned into giant logistics ships, like the dev post from long ago suggested? Problem solved. The real problem here isn't caps in low sec. Look at dreads. How many times does a dread get hot dropped on a BS? I'm guessing slim to none. Carriers just need to be nerfed into logistics and ship transport ships and thats it. I would say let them retain their fighter and repping abilities, but maybe make them paper thin so one really wouldnt want to hot drop them.
Elhina Novae Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:45:00 - [39] Whenever I read these posts from veterans about "the old days" I wish i'd started eve much earlier then I did.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Elhina Novae Whenever I read these posts from veterans about "the old days" I wish i'd started eve much earlier then I did. Hell yeah :(

Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:02:00 - [41] Originally by: murder one Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol LOL. While I agree with respect that hot drops are horrible, I do like the transport ability of Carriers in low sec. What if Carriers were just turned into giant logistics ships, like the dev post from long ago suggested? Problem solved. The real problem here isn't caps in low sec. Look at dreads. How many times does a dread get hot dropped on a BS? I'm guessing slim to none. Carriers just need to be nerfed into logistics and ship transport ships and thats it. They ARE big logistic ships fool. They're the only ships in game to use capital logistics and a carrier fighting without capital reps/shield transfers is a fool because thats what keep the gang keeping the carrier alive alive - lol And if you don't remember or just weren't paying attention, carriers got nerfed so they could no longer be effective transport ships. This is 1 person whining about probably 2 or 3 people who drop carriers on **** all in lowsec. This is not an issue.
Artimus Mousimus Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:15:00 - [42] IMO they should take the cap age and take it towards planetary control not just POS sieging and use this as a opportunity to move the caps into 0.0 away from low sec, instead of claiming systems you have to capture planets and put those military units which have no value or use on them, the more u have there the more control u have. u could have a modual that drops troops from the caps onto the Terra fer ma thus x amount of time for them to be deployed, bit like capture the flag i guess.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:47:00 - [43] some good posts in here I don't think that carriers should be made weaker, or should be 0.0 only - as has been mentioned, that only cripples the small guys, not the jumpbridge array networked alliances or those with jump freighters. We use caps as logistical tools to relocate rigged ships when we move region, without them our play style could become a lot more difficult.
Meridius Dex Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:04:00 - [44] Edited by: Meridius Dex on 20/08/2008 15:07:25 Originally by: Ambrosious Martin I just think they need to get rid of Sovereignty, and conquerable systems should not be determined by the number of POS's you have... The whole POS blob effect is lame, super lame... Who wants to do a POS repping OP? Just have conquerable stations and control bunkers in 0.0 like FW does for system Sov. From what I've read, it seems that is exactly what CCP wants to do. Many discussions on changing sovereignty dynamics have already occurred and the mechanics of FW appear to be a 'dry run' towards overhauling it all. One dev mentioned having sov challenges based on defending several gates in systems using smaller, faster ships and a timer similar to FW. I spent a long stretch in a zero sec alliance doing POS warfare and blobbing and hated it. I joined Faction Warfare as a way to escape hot-dropping, bubbles and large, laggy blobfests. For the most part, I have not been disappointed. I've only been in a few 80-120 ship fights where lag reared its ugly head and - though I heard Outbreak was hot-dropping caps on people from the Minnie side - I've yet to see any caps in FW. The kind of fights Kailiao is reminiscing over seem to be far more common in FW. Although it's quite true that solo PvP is going the way of the dodo, I would say you have a better chance of finding it in FW than anywhere else in EVE at the moment.
Athrex Morel	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:38:00 - [45] If eveyone wants to go back to the old days where most everyone wasn't max skills. In addition to reducing server population and limiting the number of caps and the resources to manufacture new ones. Why not propose CCP make ..... a new server with only new characters allowed? I have always been a fan of the race over the finish in MMOs. In a brand new universe, who would be willing to establish their foothold. You could make it so you could only have 1 character skilling up per account too. So the Tranquility guy couldn't skill up if you are skilling your other server guy. Make the players commit to either server. /runs and hides from flames.
Kailiao The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol assault frigate!??!?! are you kidding me? cant you warp before he locks you :\|... gawd it would take him a minute... and even if your fighting another AF, one of you would be dead before the carrier locks on :P also.. hells no, i wish more people hotdrpped carriers in low sec!!! woot to carrier kills I think the op was being sarcastic to explain the problem in low-sec, you just didn't get it, it's ok it happends
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:54:00 - [47] Originally by: Liang Nuren Removing Caps and POS warfare in general would make Eve such a better place... IMO. -Liang Meh.
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:54:00 - [48] I think that Meridius and Derek nailed this issue down pretty well. The issue isn't capital ships themselves or their presence in LoSec, it's that current 0.0 mechanics favor their use in such large numbers which makes them fairly common. If sovereignty didn't rely on supporting or killing large numbers of POSes, dreads would be less 'necessary'. You'd obviously still need them to kill hostile POSes, but you could probably defend your space without them. The other classes of capital ships would still have their uses on the logistics side, but with large-scale dreadnought fights less common, they'd be less likely to be on the front lines. One thing that needs to be kept in mind however is that capital ships were designed to some extent with current POS/SOV mechanics in mind. If those change, dreadnoughts should be re-worked to be more versatile (and maybe less powerful) so that they can still be used after their primary mission (POS killing to gain sovereignty) has been reduced in imprtance. Titans, and Doomsday Devices in particular, would likely need to be re-evaluated as well: one titan dropping a DD would totally eliminate a FW-style fleet. And one other thing to keep in mind is that as EvE gets older, you will see more pilots able to fly capital ships with the means to do so. This is unavoidable and is also at least partly responsible for some of the current problems we are seeing. Who wants to fly around in a small gang when you're ever-more-likely to get a capital ship hot-dropped on you? Or better yet, why not get your own capital ship to counter the one getting hot-dropped on you? tl;dr version: Fix POS/SOV mechanics and balance capital ships accordingly and capital ships should be fine in LoSec.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Elhina Novae Whenever I read these posts from veterans about "the old days" I wish i'd started eve much earlier then I did. Hell yeah :( Hear, hear.. I mean ive gto command hsips to 4 and it still seems tiny in the comparison to vets.. at least sok has a wyvern to float about in to boost epeen status :P Plus eve-pre 2007 sounds so much better than post-2007, I reckon the big turn around from small fleet allainces to blob-fests was the first "proper" titan kill when a pilot was in it (bob killed by ra +goon) and its gone downhill thusfar. If that sounds like yesterday to vets and they think the decline was earlier than fair enough, but ive know nothing else! x)
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:07:00 - [50] Originally by: Meridius Dex From what I've read, it seems that is exactly what CCP wants to do. Many discussions on changing sovereignty dynamics have already occurred and the mechanics of FW appear to be a 'dry run' towards overhauling it all. One dev mentioned having sov challenges based on defending several gates in systems using smaller, faster ships and a timer similar to FW. I spent a long stretch in a zero sec alliance doing POS warfare and blobbing and hated it. I joined Faction Warfare as a way to escape hot-dropping, bubbles and large, laggy blobfests. For the most part, I have not been disappointed. I've only been in a few 80-120 ship fights where lag reared its ugly head and - though I heard Outbreak was hot-dropping caps on people from the Minnie side - I've yet to see any caps in FW. The kind of fights Kailiao is reminiscing over seem to be far more common in FW. Although it's quite true that solo PvP is going the way of the dodo, I would say you have a better chance of finding it in FW than anywhere else in EVE at the moment. You realise that those "discussions" have been going on for almost a year i think? im guessing ccp gave up lol

Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Athrex Morel If eveyone wants to go back to the old days where most everyone wasn't max skills. In addition to reducing server population and limiting the number of caps and the resources to manufacture new ones. Why not propose CCP make ..... a new server with only new characters allowed? I have always been a fan of the race over the finish in MMOs. In a brand new universe, who would be willing to establish their foothold. You could make it so you could only have 1 character skilling up per account too. So the Tranquility guy couldn't skill up if you are skilling your other server guy. Make the players commit to either server. /runs and hides from flames. Thats not the point :) As nothing would be differant. Everyone would just be newbs lol, the mechanics wouldnt change. I wouldn tsay EVE was better back in the day. Just very differant, as many ppl have said. In 3 years time, the newer players will look back on today as the good old days. When Vagas went 20k, and nano ships were cool. And there was no (whatever hated thing comes along) etc. Everyone adapts to what is dealt. And theres some very valid points in this thread. I suppose it is more the players faults than CCPS, as were the ones actusally flooding the game with POS, CAPS, Titans etc. CCP could never have dreamt how things would unfold i guess. There is always players who will push the boundaries, that will find the best way to utilise what they have. Fixing things in Eve takes time, if its not right first time, its a while before its fixed. By which time its usually too late, or there is some other problem come along. Carriers arent the problem. Niether is the ability to have Caps in low sec. Pos arent even directly the problem. Its more the mechanics to which they are / need to be used. Even if they change the way Sov is done, we will still have as many Pos for the isk they make, and reactions they run. Im not pretending i have any fixes, this is just how i see it. As much as ppl moan (not saying anyone here is!) A vast majority wont do anything about it. Every nerf theres a bunch of ppl saying if it happens there gonna quit. They will put up with it, like the rest of the sheep and adapt.
Kyusoath Orillian Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:37:00 - [52] Originally by: kiteraaa Edited by: kiteraaa on 20/08/2008 00:31:51 I mean really there are just so many times i can get a carrier droped on my af, lol YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES or reduce building cost and reduce HP down to faction BS levels. .
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Romulus Maximus Carriers arent the problem. Niether is the ability to have Caps in low sec. Pos arent even directly the problem. Its more the mechanics to which they are / need to be used. Even if they change the way Sov is done, we will still have as many Pos for the isk they make, and reactions they run. Dude, POS warfare = Crap. Like, really, really, really unfun. Alarm clock ops and POS repping is ****ing not fun. Eve is not a damn second/third job, and having repping fleets of 40+ Basilisks doesn't make me feel "uber" or part of something "epic". Hats off to Trouts for entertaining me with awesome music and booze last time I had to do this shit. -Liang
Altai Saker Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:45:00 - [54] Fleet battles back in the day were much more fun, and more interesting than they are now. Mostly because of the sheer number of people that have joined the game since then. Though I don't like the idea of hotdropping, its a part of the game, though i would love to see cap ships confeined to 0.0 and being only made in 0.0. That would elimate the noob in the capital and force him to learn some things about it and how to use it.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:00:00 - [55] POSes or Caps.. Poses or Caps... If I had one wish which would I remove from the game... a tough choice.
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:08:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren Dude, POS warfare = Crap. Like, really, really, really unfun. Alarm clock ops and POS repping is ****ing not fun. Eve is not a damn second/third job, and having repping fleets of 40+ Basilisks doesn't make me feel "uber" or part of something "epic". Hats off to Trouts for entertaining me with awesome music and booze last time I had to do this shit. -Liang Since when have i said differant. I hate shooting POS. But i do it because thats whats needed to play the game they way we play it. As i said, its not the POS so much as they way there utilised. If you didnt need to have xx POS to claim a sys, or a god knows how many to claim a region etc (i mean to know the system cant be spammed and taken etc) Imagine if there was only a handful of POS. It wouldnt be 'so' boring. Instead of month long sieges to rid constellations. There will always be parts of Eve that some dont enjoy. Station ping pong springs to mind. Just seems we have gone from one extreme to the other.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Romulus Maximus There will always be parts of Eve that some dont enjoy. Station ping pong springs to mind. Just seems we have gone from one extreme to the other. Do you honestly know anyone who really enjoys shooting and repping POS's for months on end? I mean, yaaaaay, I log in and spend another 8 hours repping POS's tonight! Don't forget to wake up a few hours early for work so you can bring your dread to shoot thier POS's!! Dude, nobody enjoys POS warfare... it's brutalizing and I've seen so .. very .. many friends leave Eve after being burned out on pos repping/attacking for a couple of months and then losing a few bil in assets in a lost station. -Liang
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Baron Primus Why stop at cap ships? Think about how radically this game changed after t2 was implemented. Before those days, 80+% resists were a pipe dream! Combat was faster and more furious! I think, to make eve more exciting and fun is to confine T2 to 0.0 as well. What sort of technological horrors might be hiding in the depths of space?? It'd be like our very own MINI JOVIAN EMPIRE!! 0.0's level of excitement would SKYROCKET! Lol ! Can you imagine the screams from mission runners. This idea is ever farther out there than limiting Caps to 0.0 CCP wanted to make combat longer. Thats why they nerfed huge amounts of dmg mods, thats why they added the HP increase.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:40:00 - [59] Originally by: Romulus Maximus That doesnt mean it should be removed from game. Noone enjoyed capping stations (except maybe dmZ). But it was what had to be done. Sadly, this isnt a game where everything is fun. Not if you want to play it to its fullest. No dude, I'm trying to say that the game should be fun. POS's and POS warfare are not fun, and thus should be scrapped. Find Another Way. Quote: Noone made them move to 0.0 and setup POS. Its what they chose to do, or who they chose to join. If only everyone just up and quit because they couldnt win or didnt want to put the effort in. Would trim the fat so to speak. Ok, so this is the way Eve works (you seem to be rather ignorant): - Highsec bully (wardec miner corps) - Lowsec pirate (Antipies do not exist, sorry). No targets. - 0.0 alliance warfare. So then you're like... ok, I'll go join a good roaming PVP alliance and PVP every night.. it'll be awesome! And so you do this for some time. Then your alliance gets targeted by the Bloballition and fights go from 5v5 and 20v20 to 800v800+ for a few months on end. And you can't do anything else because you've got billions invested in roaming PVP ships in some station. So you and your mates put your all into it and manage to hold off hundreds or thousands of people per night... good ***ing job! But no, you don't get to do this by shooting* your enemy. Nope, you get to do this by repairing **ing POS's. In the end, people aren't leaving because of winning or losing - they're leaving because Eve has become a second job that you'd rather sleep through. Hell, doing the honey dos on the homefront is even more exciting than watching POS hitpoints creep up and down. No dude, POS's and POS warfare being ***ing boring and frustrating is what makes people leave. The same thing could be accomplished so much better* in some other way. Find Another Way. So just in case you missed "my point": POS WARFARE SUCKS. POS LOGISTICS SUCK. FIND ANOTHER WAY. -Liang
Baron Primus	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:47:00 - [60] Edited by: Baron Primus on 20/08/2008 17:48:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren Ok, so this is the way Eve works (you seem to be rather ignorant): - Highsec bully (wardec miner corps) - Lowsec pirate (Antipies do not exist, sorry). No targets. - 0.0 alliance warfare. So then you're like... ok, I'll go join a good roaming PVP alliance and PVP every night.. it'll be awesome! And so you do this for some time. Then your alliance gets targeted by the Bloballition and fights go from 5v5 and 20v20 to 800v800+ for a few months on end. And you can't do anything else because you've got billions invested in roaming PVP ships in some station. So you and your mates put your all into it and manage to hold off hundreds or thousands of people per night... good ***ing job! But no, you don't get to do this by shooting* your enemy. Nope, you get to do this by repairing **ing POS's. In the end, people aren't leaving because of winning or losing - they're leaving because Eve has become a second job that you'd rather sleep through. Hell, doing the honey dos on the homefront is even more exciting than watching POS hitpoints creep up and down. No dude, POS's and POS warfare being ***ing boring and frustrating is what makes people leave. The same thing could be accomplished so much better* in some other way. Find Another Way. So just in case you missed "my point": POS WARFARE SUCKS. POS LOGISTICS SUCK. FIND ANOTHER WAY. -Liang Thats why npc ratting and wolf-packing is the only way to play. When the fleets converge, thats when you sneak out a jump-freighter with BILLIONS worth of equipment. Thus, you retire and live life as a FP grinder in highsec with your ill-gotten gains safely in a high-sec fortress of a station. There is no other way to play eve. God bless CONCORD

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