EVE Search - Why do Webs Exist? An Epistimelogical Question

Search EVE-Online forums for:

All Channels

Game Development Forum

Why do Webs Exist? An Epistimelogical Question

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Topic
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:36:00 - [1]
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:24:00 - [2] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/08/2008 02:25:20 Double post, and I somehow neglected to edit this one. :-/
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:25:00 - [3] http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+Epistemological&spell=1 Quote: Epistemology or theory of knowledge is a branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope of knowledge. The term was introduced into English by the Scottish philosopher James Frederick Ferrier (1808-1864). Just for the curious. -Liang
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:40:00 - [4] Yes, the study of what can be known and the mechanics of knowledge. Now that there are replies and you're expecting something to read If webs were gone, what would this game be missing? (Ignoring the lack of anything to give bonuses to the Mini recons for) Assume scrams stop MWD users (conveniently at close ranges where it's much easier and likely to go under the guns of a larger ship) from going five times fast. In a setting where weapons designed for one tier don't hit well at a tier they aren't designed for, what's the problem with this game? Seriously, if all tracking and explosion velocity mechanics functioned like we are playing the same game inside of 12km, what is wrong with this game?
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:06:00 - [5] Without webs the game would be missing a crucial "I caught you module" that is necessary since every ship is equiped with a "Get me an inifinte distance away from all of my enemies" button aka warp. Also there would be nothing to stop ships from reapproaching a stargate or station or POS shield. It would be even more trivial to get away from blaster/short range boats, etc. For being a hardcore PvP game, EVE allows quite a multitude of ways to escape combat (WCS, speed, mwd, ecm, warp, dock, jump, etc) webs are needed for unconsensual combt and pinning down ships so ships actually die instead of getting away.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Vaal Erit Without webs the game would be missing a crucial "I caught you module" that is necessary since every ship is equiped with a "Get me an inifinte distance away from all of my enemies" button aka warp. The module you are describing is a warp disruptor not a stasis webifier.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:22:00 - [7] The web is a key component in slowing the enemy ship down so he cannot get out of scram range and warp off. I know what a warp scrambler is, duhhh. Web and pt go pretty much hand in hand on any tackling ship that is not speed fit.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:46:00 - [8] Just a few numbers: A Medium Pulse Laser II at optimal and tracking speed is following a point on an arc at 1477m/s with no skills. A Mega Pulse Laser II (two tiers up) at optimal and tracking speed is following an arc at about 810m/s with no skills. Roughly half. Eve math and skills are what let you hit targets at speeds faster than these (and the faster speeds within the falloff range as the arc gets longer) but you get the idea. Two tiers worth of weaponry can be traversed by a simple 50% difference in speed of the target being tracked. Small rails will track a target at about 2x as fast at optimal as well. Haven't checked on other weapons systems and won't comment on missiles. Sig radius goes up by about a factor of two for each tier of ship. At the top, this leaves BS's roughly four times as big as frigates. A dual-painting Hugin will multiply sig radius by a factor of about two, raising the hit profile by one tier of weaponry. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 03:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaal Erit The web is a key component in slowing the enemy ship down so he cannot get out of scram range and warp off. I know what a warp scrambler is, duhhh. Web and pt go pretty much hand in hand on any tackling ship that is not speed fit. Evisophical question: Should a non speed fit ship be "tackling" in the first place? More specific question, should you be tackling an enemy in a ship that cannot keep up with the enemy?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:12:00 - [10] Originally by: NanDe YaNen Originally by: Vaal Erit The web is a key component in slowing the enemy ship down so he cannot get out of scram range and warp off. I know what a warp scrambler is, duhhh. Web and pt go pretty much hand in hand on any tackling ship that is not speed fit. Evisophical question: Should a non speed fit ship be "tackling" in the first place? More specific question, should you be tackling an enemy in a ship that cannot keep up with the enemy? Yes. Also please note that removing webs would remove all short range weaponry from the game (most especially blasters). Eve PVP 100% boil down to inties tackling for sniper BS's. -Liang

NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NanDe YaNen Originally by: Vaal Erit The web is a key component in slowing the enemy ship down so he cannot get out of scram range and warp off. I know what a warp scrambler is, duhhh. Web and pt go pretty much hand in hand on any tackling ship that is not speed fit. Evisophical question: Should a non speed fit ship be "tackling" in the first place? More specific question, should you be tackling an enemy in a ship that cannot keep up with the enemy? Yes. Also please note that removing webs would remove all short range weaponry from the game (most especially blasters). Eve PVP 100% boil down to inties tackling for sniper BS's. -Liang How does the web add short range weaponry to the game? Can my blaster Mega no longer function without a web? If my blaster Mega isn't outrunning its prey, has it by no great coincidence mistakenly chosen to take on another MWD BS that is fast enough to keep it at range?
El Mauru Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:30:00 - [12] Webs are needed to prevent a target to get back to a gate/station docking range.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:30:00 - [13] today my geddon popped an ares. I lold when he thought he would fly straight at me then fly away. I lold when my heavy nuet hit him, and i lold when my scorch crystals all hit him as he simply bumped himself away in a straight line completely on momentum. By the time he had moved 45km out, running away at 10km/s My second volley went off, and cut his ship clean in half. Speed makes you hard to hit, but when you do get hit, it hurts like hell. lol
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:48:00 - [14] Originally by: NanDe YaNen How does the web add short range weaponry to the game? Can my blaster Mega no longer function without a web? If my blaster Mega isn't outrunning its prey, has it by no great coincidence mistakenly chosen to take on another MWD BS that is fast enough to keep it at range? Actually, no, your blaster mega could not function without a web. It doesn't have the tracking to actually hit anything at the ranges where blasters are an effective weapons system. Webs don't necessarily add short range weapons systems to the game, but without them then there'd be no reason to at all, ever fit a short range weapons system. The shorter ranged, the worse they'd become. TBH, I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, and most especially I don't see why you chose to put it in Game Dev. I think that perhaps General Discussion, Ships & Modules, or Features & Ideas are all superior places to put it. -Liang
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:53:00 - [15] Oh, and I forgot: I like your HK-47 style questions. Originally by: HK47 "Retraction: Did I say that out loud? While it is true you are a meatbag, I should refrain from addressing you as such." -Liang
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:41:00 - [16] Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 10:45:19 Webs are needet for any kind of Short Range Weapon Systems(Even preaty handy for Torps, not so mutch on the smaller Missles). Blasters: Blaster ships nearly give up her Damage out of Web Range for a highter Damage output on very close Range. Large Blasters with Null or Medium with a Falloff Bonus can hit outside of Web Range, but are outdone by Lasers and on a equal Level like AKs up to 30-17km over this Range they switching very fast in a overall Disadvantage based on the nature of Blasters. ACs: By the greater Falloff the Weapon has a bigger Window of use, Fast ships use the Range to still do damage at high Speeds, slower ones to controll Range or go close to increase the Damage. Lasers: Lasers are more a out of Web Range Weapon, since the have the biggest Range(and the worst Tracking to make it up for this at Puls Lasers) they. Ships that get close can void her Range ability and use her Tracking disadvantage against them. The Web: Slowes the Taraget down, preventing it to moving away or use high speeds to counter Tracking. Also some kind of psychological effect prevents people from moving at all on the bigger ships. Also a counter to prevent a ship to get in Jump/dock Range/Pos Shield range. The Scrambler can shut down the MWD, but the base speed of a Ship alone will outdo the Tracking at close ranges. Even with the 60% Web most many ships can still reduce Damage against Ships of her own class. Ships of a smaller sice nearly avoid Turret Damage with the 60% Web. Also it is false that MWD + Web as it is now showes the same effect simply because the higher Signature will work against the Ship that tryes to avoid Damage. Without the Web, there is no real reason to use Blasters, because they fail out of Web range and start to do the same into Web Range. ACs do simlar, with a slight advatage at range but also start failing in close to. Lasers shine at Med Range can go without a web, in close they will be useless, but they allready outdown atm by ACs and Blasters there now, so they won¦t suffer this mutch. Missles at the other hand will be the only usable close Range Weapon left, because they don¦t suffer Tracking Issues. So a web is a Mod that tackles and make short Range Turrets usalbe. Scram tackels the same, but don¦t make short range Turrets usable. Killing 2/3 types of Turrets in her former field of use and making Missles the only choice at next to all Rages is bad for the game(while the 60% Web allready hurts to a point where ACs and Blasters loose her advantages atm). If Tracking get boosted this hard to work in Web Range again, it would shred anything outside od web range into pices quite fast. A Large Blaster allready can hit a Vage at 17-20km(not realy good but forcing it to leave over time) boosting the Tracking like(100-300% what would be needet with the 60% Web, leave alone no web) would nuke every Frig and Ceptor out of Web Range.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:09:00 - [17] If you're having tracking issues on blasters, your asking them to hit the wrong targets and for full damage. Just look at some damage curves for a BS at top speed. MWD, AB, whatever. Blasters outperform in an area that varies but usually happens at about 7.5k depending on the tracking situation. Pulses outperform at longer ranges going out to about 15k. Poor AC's just perform okay in all situations and underperform at anyone's optimal. The advantages of the blasters aren't apparent until you're at extreme close ranges of about 5k when pretty much everyone else's damage goes to shit and you're still popping along at about 500dps + drones. If you're having tracking issues, you're using them against the wrong ship class and doing a bad job of positioning your own ship. If you can't hold a ship in close range in a Mega, it's either the wrong class of ship and your asking large turrets to do too much or they have a MWD and you should either give up or get a warp in at point blank and shred them while they try to outrun you. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. As people have pointed out, because of the very nice falloff of large blasters, you can use a mega inside usual small skirmish ranges to be peppering up any smaller ship classes pretty effectively. Again, the mega won't be hitting for full damage. Once more, lasers will outperform at slightly longer ranges. Pretty much every BS class gun will perform pretty well near falloff against ships of a smaller class or at-tier ships going really really fast. That's assuming they're going full transverse, which is usually not true. It's mostly the same for cruiser guns. Interceptors...given the proponents of various inties, they seem to be the most balanced class already. Really want to see a blasterthron go crazy? Hybrid ambit extension I Done. As for the arguments about going back to the gate/station, I'm aware. Increasing undocking/jump in distance a bit and possibly making bubbles larger to compensate is the simple solution. Sorry if it seems like I'm intentionally dragging this question on. I've never understood why webs exist in this game when there is this very nice tracking mechanic that does a very good job of differentiating different weapons and ship classes against the things they are designed to hit. When I first heard of tackling, I thought it meant a bunch of small ships going under the guns at close range, thus wrapping up a ship that would be helpless until freed by the killmail path to nirvana. Boy was I wrong
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:20:00 - [18] This is going in dev forum because I fully intend to get on the test server and do some tests on the nerfed webs Right now my hdd is broken and the warranty part is taking forever to get here Furthermore I wonder if it's possible now with the capability to disable MWD (does sig radius stay high for any duration?) to have decent fights without webs or with severely nerfed webs. Are there T1 webs available at 30% strength or so? That should be plenty to drag a MWD-less ship into larger guns. Transverse is never 100%. Tracking formula doesn't need much of a nudge to get the effect of current tackling where there is no way (for tacklers) counter MWD and the web has to do it all. At less than base speeds, almost no ship in the game is truly fast. 1km/s is tactically standing still unless you're talking about BS's dualing in blaster range As far as getting back to gates and such, if it's a gatecamp where you can't melt a MWD'less target going half base speed before they get turned around and make it back, something went pretty wrong.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:54:00 - [19] Removing web's would be a horrible idea. Increasing bubble size to compensate for lack of webs is simply not enough. A Bubble does not slow anyone down in side of it, They can still MWD right out of it. Now if you were to propose making a stasis webification bubble/generator for Dictors/HAC's as well as deployables, then that would be a much more even compromise, but i think it would create more problems then it would solve. I dont see why its such an issue for my mega to roast a cruiser thats been pointed and webbed. Even with out a web on em, most cruiser pilots from my experince, simply try to just run away in a straight line, aka no transversal,so they go boom. Meanwhile a geddon or an apoc fitted with tracking comp and pulses can occasionally blow ceptors outta the sky, and thats with no web. Also what do we do with the minimatar recon bonus? what do they get for this underserved shafting? How do interceptors and frigs do their jobs as tacklers if they cant hold the target down. Bottom line and Main point, dont propose massive game breaking changes with out providing a clear cut solution.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Straight Chillen They can still MWD right out of it. Not when tackled by a tackler who, being a tackle setup, is fast and carries a scram to prevent the use of a tactical positioning module to be used as a tactical escape module. Originally by: Straight Chillen Meanwhile a geddon or an apoc fitted with tracking comp and pulses can occasionally blow ceptors outta the sky, and thats with no web. My point exactly. If a tackler can prevent you from leaving and prevent you from MWD'ng away, you're basically screwed enough without the web. Most guns will hit pretty good even outside of their design envelope, so the web is a huge overcompensation for tracking issues. Inties main job now is holding a point and getting that point very quickly. Who gives a shit about the web. When webbed back with 550% sig radius increase, prepare to die. Tacklers are as much hobbled by webs as they are able to make use of them. Anyway, no, this isn't a proposal. I'm just trying to identify all the sources of need for webs and figure out how much web is absolutely necessary, as every bit of web quickly trashes tracking mechanics. Give Matar webs. They've seen so much hurt. Nagfail, no more nanophoons, and now no nano's period. Matar recons already can light up a target like a christmas tree with two painters doubling sig radius. If they're the only race that can also cut velocity in half, I won't mind a bit.

The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:42:00 - [21] Originally by: NanDe YaNen yeah right look at me im a Troll As i have seen in another Tread you are mostly used to 0.0 PVP, that is not the thing i do and mostly not the thing where a Blaster Ship is usefull in general. Blasters have issues to hit the Target with the 60% Web if your target is not a Noob. Blaster Ships are plated or rigged for high Rep Power, they are not paticular fast and are affected by small range changes the most. Targets of the same size have no big problems to outmauver a Blaster Ships because they are generaly faster or worse kill it quite easy because of her bigger Range and simlar DPS(Abaddon, Raven, Mealstorm for example). Originally by: NanDe YaNen Really want to see a blasterthron go crazy? Hybrid ambit extension I Done. Quote for pure FAIL. Any deacend Pilot will Kill you in a 1o1 or Small Scale PVP. In a Blob it don¦t matter, but is only a poor solution for people that can¦t use Torps or Lasers. Any clue why this Rigs are used on many Minmatar Ships but not at Gallente Ships? I give you a Clue: 1. Powergrid 2. Giving up Tank/Buffer 3. Better Damage of other ships at this ranges 4. Atemt of using a Weapon at a suboptimal Range while voiding most of the advantages at her common range = very dead Blastership and very funny Killmail if you are don¦t in a 20 Man Blob or against a Noob. Stop Trolling kthx.
Somal Thunder	Posted - 2008.08.20 18:36:00 - [22] web = anti nano 2x web = better than nano
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 18:42:00 - [23] Hybrid Ambit == goofy setup like Straight Chillin running iron ammo on sisi during the first round of nano tests. Blaster boats are for starting off at zero using good recons etc. Find a sling where there's a lot of sniper setups vying for position on cap fleet xyz. Warp in load of blaster boats and short range setups. Watch them tackle and maim anything at the sling. Of all the short range vs long range combo's, blasters are the most problematic to sniper setups that get warped in on because a blaster boat is thinking "optimal == bumping" and you want to see some bad tracking? Beams vs blasters at 250m while molesting a tracking comp setup without a web, point, or really any other hope in hell. Arguing that blaster boats are bad in PvP is like arguing that smartbombers always lose because they don't have enough cap to run a MWD and are short range. The right medicine for the right job is always the best solution.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 19:20:00 - [24] Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 19:20:49 Originally by: NanDe YaNen Hybrid Ambit == goofy setup like Straight Chillin running iron ammo on sisi during the first round of nano tests. So you don¦t tryed it? Originally by: NanDe YaNen Really want to see a blasterthron go crazy? Hybrid ambit extension I Done. <- so this is a lie and you got no clue at all about Blaster Ships? Originally by: NanDe YaNen Blaster boats are for starting off at zero using good recons etc. Find a sling where there's a lot of sniper setups vying for position on cap fleet xyz. Warp in load of blaster boats and short range setups. Watch them tackle and maim anything at the sling. Ofc a ship that can warp a Blaster Ship at 0 to a Sniper Ship makes the Blaster ship good? Drop a Bubble, warp in Ravens\Gedons\Abaddons would be fare better. Originally by: NanDe YaNen Of all the short range vs long range combo's, blasters are the most problematic to sniper setups that get warped in on because a blaster boat is thinking "optimal == bumping" and you want to see some bad tracking? Beams vs blasters at 250m while molesting a tracking comp setup without a web, point, or really any other hope in hell. Blaster ships don¦t orbit, I allready sayed this but I think you missed the point, the Blaster ship don¦t orbit and don¦t moves in at 250m it takes full Damage even against a Sniper(what is not a big deal). Originally by: NanDe YaNen Arguing that blaster boats are bad in PvP is like arguing that smartbombers always lose because they don't have enough cap to run a MWD and are short range. The right medicine for the right job is always the best solution. I never sayed they are bad. Try to search for it and quote little Troll. You mentioned Blasters are fine without a Web, and this is simply wrong and everyone that uses one(ofc people that drop them at 0 at sniper Fleets will tell you diffrent ) knows this.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:27:00 - [25] oooooh! point by points! me luv point by points! Originally by: The Djego So you don¦t tryed it? Originally by: NanDe YaNen Really want to see a blasterthron go crazy? Hybrid ambit extension I Done. <- so this is a lie and you got no clue at all about Blaster Ships? It's always good to infer that a lack of positive affirmation is indicative of a need to avoid scrutiny. In this case, I'm doing something far more sinister by referencing Straight Chillin's similar setup of iron ammo + tracking comps, which he says works, and then leaving my own experience at the hanging chad stage. Ooh the suspense! Originally by: The Djego Originally by: NanDe YaNen Blaster boats are for starting off at zero using good recons etc. Find a sling where there's a lot of sniper setups vying for position on cap fleet xyz. Warp in load of blaster boats and short range setups. Watch them tackle and maim anything at the sling. Ofc a ship that can warp a Blaster Ship at 0 to a Sniper Ship makes the Blaster ship good? Drop a Bubble, warp in Ravens\Gedons\Abaddons would be fare better. Ravens would be the best if PvP mids didn't come straight from tanking slots. Debatable. Geddon needs an extra mid. Abaddon has not the tracking bonuses necessary for best bump'n'gank. Blasterthron ftw. But these are real ships only roleplayers use. If it's a real sling and you can get the bubble on when they all come out, smartbombing t1 ravens ftw Originally by: The Djego Originally by: NanDe YaNen Of all the short range vs long range combo's, blasters are the most problematic to sniper setups that get warped in on because a blaster boat is thinking "optimal == bumping" and you want to see some bad tracking? Beams vs blasters at 250m while molesting a tracking comp setup without a web, point, or really any other hope in hell. Blaster ships don¦t orbit, I allready sayed this but I think you missed the point, the Blaster ship don¦t orbit and don¦t moves in at 250m it takes full Damage even against a Sniper(what is not a big deal). Now this I have to see. A sniper BS with optimal scripts and sensor boosters doing any real DPS to a bumping Mega that is so close that 20m/s transverse will equate to a radial velocity akin to Jovian fit Vaga at the sniper's optimal. Bumping in a mega pits its far superior tracking at that range and relatively awesome DPS against the nearly zero tracking and so-so DPS of the sniper. That's all she wrote. It's not about maneuvering to optimals and maintaining transverse so much as simply putting both ships into a tracking nightmare to emphasize the extreme differences in tracking capability and reliance on drones. Originally by: The Djego Originally by: NanDe YaNen Arguing that blaster boats are bad in PvP is like arguing that smartbombers always lose because they don't have enough cap to run a MWD and are short range. The right medicine for the right job is always the best solution. I never sayed they are bad. Try to search for it and quote little Troll. Originally by: The Djego As i have seen in another Tread you are mostly used to 0.0 PVP, that is not the thing i do and mostly not the thing where a Blaster Ship is usefull in general. I just gave you a perfect example of how to use a blaster ship in a fleet setting of 0.0. Originally by: The Djego You mentioned Blasters are fine without a Web, and this is simply wrong and everyone that uses one(ofc people that drop them at 0 at sniper Fleets will tell you diffrent ) knows this. Me in a T1 Blasterthron and no web for argument's sake vs you in your webless, pointless, fleet whatever the hell at zero meters. Okay, escape! Go! What are you waiting for!? Don't you have enough cap and grid with your T2 guns to fit a MWD??? I thought I was supposed to be taking full damage!
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:01:00 - [26] Originally by: NanDe YaNen Hybrid Ambit == goofy setup like Straight Chillin running iron ammo on sisi during the first round of nano tests. Oh really? so how do you propose i engage at 13km, with anything BUT iron? stop being a troglidite jack ass, cuz your only making your self look like an idiot. Originally by: NanDe YaNen Blaster boats are for starting off at zero using good recons etc. Find a sling where there's a lot of sniper setups vying for position on cap fleet xyz. Warp in load of blaster boats and short range setups. Watch them tackle and maim anything at the sling. so basically your saying that blaster ships need to have a WTZ to be effective? that has got to be the most asinine statement ive ever heard. Why for what reason? just to simply kill off solo pvp? What do you have against blaster ships anyway? did a big bad mega touch you in your no no place? No body has said that blaster ships are bad in PVP, they have their uses. However with out a web, They will fail hard at PVP. Please, Stop Posting
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:08:00 - [27] Originally by: NanDe YaNen If you're having tracking issues on blasters, your asking them to hit the wrong targets and for full damage. Just look at some damage curves for a BS at top speed. MWD, AB, whatever. Blasters outperform in an area that varies but usually happens at about 7.5k depending on the tracking situation. Pulses outperform at longer ranges going out to about 15k. Poor AC's just perform okay in all situations and underperform at anyone's optimal. The advantages of the blasters aren't apparent until you're at extreme close ranges of about 5k when pretty much everyone else's damage goes to shit and you're still popping along at about 500dps + drones. If you're having tracking issues, you're using them against the wrong ship class and doing a bad job of positioning your own ship. If you can't hold a ship in close range in a Mega, it's either the wrong class of ship and your asking large turrets to do too much or they have a MWD and you should either give up or get a warp in at point blank and shred them while they try to outrun you. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. Blasters are not useless without webs against the targets they are designed to hit. As people have pointed out, because of the very nice falloff of large blasters, you can use a mega inside usual small skirmish ranges to be peppering up any smaller ship classes pretty effectively. Again, the mega won't be hitting for full damage. Once more, lasers will outperform at slightly longer ranges. Pretty much every BS class gun will perform pretty well near falloff against ships of a smaller class or at-tier ships going really really fast. That's assuming they're going full transverse, which is usually not true. It's mostly the same for cruiser guns. Interceptors...given the proponents of various inties, they seem to be the most balanced class already. Really want to see a blasterthron go crazy? Hybrid ambit extension I Done. As for the arguments about going back to the gate/station, I'm aware. Increasing undocking/jump in distance a bit and possibly making bubbles larger to compensate is the simple solution. Sorry if it seems like I'm intentionally dragging this question on. I've never understood why webs exist in this game when there is this very nice tracking mechanic that does a very good job of differentiating different weapons and ship classes against the things they are designed to hit. When I first heard of tackling, I thought it meant a bunch of small ships going under the guns at close range, thus wrapping up a ship that would be helpless until freed by the killmail path to nirvana. Boy was I wrong It's quite easy to miss another Battleship with blasters, because the tracking formula doesn't quite work at close range (currently takes no account of effective target size up close). Even with a tracking speed of 0.083 rad/sec (max skilled Megathron, Ion IIÆs, 5% tracking implant) you are reduced to 50% hits at transversal of 166 m/sec at 2km. Bearing in mind we are talking km-long Battleships here: at 2km they subtend a 115 degree angle of arc... you simply wouldnÆt be able to miss if you tried (and yet with the current situation we do). I'm not particularly fond of the idea of stasis webs as a module, and if the tracking formula worked properly at very close ranges, you might see less setups relying on them. But at the moment? Would be as well to delete Blasters if you removed the module.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:23:00 - [28] You've got me all wrong. I thought your setup was a crafty way to take advantage of a ship that has very good tracking just outside of web range by giving it just enough range to hit well at that sweet spot. I thought it was a good solution. I never said it was a bad solution. Goofy here just meaning "not the normal cookie cutter Mega." Extending the falloff is just another spin on that. Blasters don't really have a lot of optimal to work with, so I took the falloff direction instead of extending optimal through ammo selection. On the contrary, I love the Mega. Mostly Gallante spec even. I use a web because other people use webs and I need one to keep them from kiting me at 12.5km. Other than that, I track just fine at tier. So does every other gun in the game. The only blaster boat I don't quite love anymore is the Myrm since it's not the 1vs1 OMGWTFPWN mobile it was without five heavies and a Myrm with blasters has a lot of trouble in gang settings (heavy drones and blasters both have some trouble engaging primary). If anything, I'd like to see fewer web users as a mega pilot since webs are the only reason the mega's superior tracking inside web range doesn't show up as well. Hince you have to plow the hell over anything to make the tracking superiority work in your favor. Seriously, we have all these really nice damage curves that have been carefully balanced so that shorter range ships have more sensitivity to range but higher DPS at their sweet spot to compensate and much better performance at that sweet spot than other weapons systems. Then we take that system, and completely f*!& it up with webs and make all BS guns under 12.5km hit for usually 90% damage if you aren't right on top of the other ship. If you can't catch it with a web, you sure as hell can't catch it without a web, and without webs, the ships you can catch would be a lot more helpless to kite you or hit you at your "optimal." Again, I'm not particularly arguing against webs. I want to know what all people are using them for (mostly obvious, but for the sake of not ignoring the odd web-my-freighter-warp-align-faster usages, getting more opinions). Hence the incredibly relevant post title: "Why are there Webs?"
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's quite easy to miss another Battleship with blasters, because the tracking formula doesn't quite work at close range (currently takes no account of effective target size up close). Even with a tracking speed of 0.083 rad/sec (max skilled Megathron, Ion IIÆs, 5% tracking implant) you are reduced to 50% hits at transversal of 166 m/sec at 2km. Bearing in mind we are talking km-long Battleships here: at 2km they subtend a 115 degree angle of arc... you simply wouldnÆt be able to miss if you tried (and yet with the current situation we do). I'm not particularly fond of the idea of stasis webs as a module, and if the tracking formula worked properly at very close ranges, you might see less setups relying on them. But at the moment? Would be as well to delete Blasters if you removed the module. Go up on a Geddon in that situation (I prefer the closer the better) and you'll be on the steep part of your damage curve and he'll be in the toilet. That's the advantage of blasters, not the high damage you can do at your peak, because the geddon will be much less gimped at that range.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:56:00 - [30] Originally by: NanDe YaNen Go up on a Geddon in that situation (I prefer the closer the better) and you'll be on the steep part of your damage curve and he'll be in the toilet. That's the advantage of blasters, not the high damage you can do at your peak, because the geddon will be much less gimped at that range. You either don't understand the game or you're trolling. Either way, Stop. :) -Liang

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.