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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.20 22:06:00 -
[31]
Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 22:06:35
 Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Extending the falloff is just another spin on that. Blasters don't really have a lot of optimal to work with, so I took the falloff direction instead of extending optimal through ammo selection.
Read again what I written above why it is a bad decision in general(might be worth it if you are after shooting Nano Ships but other Ships allready work better at this)
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
On the contrary, I love the Mega. Mostly Gallante spec even. I use a web because other people use webs and I need one to keep them from kiting me at 12.5km. Other than that, I track just fine at tier. So does every other gun in the game.
Then you dooing it simply wrong. Even a BS can reduce a high amount of Damage from a Mega without a Web, any smaller ship gets next to unhitable. Btw I canŠt find any kill you are using a Mega, not even a halve deacend fitted Blaster Ship...
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
The only blaster boat I don't quite love anymore is the Myrm since it's not the 1vs1 OMGWTFPWN mobile it was without five heavies and a Myrm with blasters has a lot of trouble in gang settings (heavy drones and blasters both have some trouble engaging primary).
Myrmidon is not a Blaster Ship, in a Gang people fit Lasers or ACs on the Myrm anyway.
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
If anything, I'd like to see fewer web users as a mega pilot since webs are the only reason the mega's superior tracking inside web range doesn't show up as well. Hince you have to plow the hell over anything to make the tracking superiority work in your favor.
Seriously, we have all these really nice damage curves that have been carefully balanced so that shorter range ships have more sensitivity to range but higher DPS at their sweet spot to compensate and much better performance at that sweet spot than other weapons systems. Then we take that system, and completely f*!& it up with webs and make all BS guns under 12.5km hit for usually 90% damage if you aren't right on top of the other ship.
So in short you did never seen a or used a Mega outside of EFT?
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
If you can't catch it with a web, you sure as hell can't catch it without a web, and without webs, the ships you can catch would be a lot more helpless to kite you or hit you at your "optimal."
Again, I'm not particularly arguing against webs. I want to know what all people are using them for (mostly obvious, but for the sake of not ignoring the odd web-my-freighter-warp-align-faster usages, getting more opinions). Hence the incredibly relevant post title: "Why are there Webs?"
Did you read anything I posted? 
Yeah right, you can catch a ship that you canŠt hit right, you canŠt catch a ship that is a bit faster and you got the smallest range of all. Something in this sentence would be asume that you realy donŠt have a chance at all. |
Helios Hyperion
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.20 22:07:00 -
[32]
i think the game play would be even more interesting if webs were pulled from the equation. as it is.. i am so happy about the web nerf that's coming with the speed rebalancing (proposed). bubbles should not be able to kill solo pvp like they do, the speed rebalance and the lack of omgwthbbq webs will make this game... way better |
NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.08.20 22:53:00 -
[33]
Lol. Hitting a nerve on this whole blaster thing eh? Two weeks (new hdd) I'll be happy to make some runs against pulse geddons. We go one round with webs and one without. Goal being to illustrate how the tracking advantages of blasters at close quarters are in fact obliterated by webs, not helped. You don't need to do 100% DPS to win. An AC ship using it's massive falloff and kiting a mega will most clearly illustrate that.
And, yes Djego, I was using it to shoot nano ships. Nano gangs were making some embarrassing trips to TDE and it was a test to see what I could pull off with BS guns in a gimmicky setup. And yes, it works like a charm, but I left for Japan soon after and Geminate, well, to put it mildly wasn't the same when I got back . Anyway, you get so much more out of the falloff than the optimal on blasters. Rigs are a winner in that niche setting.
And, yes, I'm aware that myrms aren't really the best blaster ships anymore after the nos nerf and the loss of their extra two heavies, but before that they were excellent pirate gankers with massive DPS and sustainable tanks. Only after nos got whacked has the AC myrm been the clear winner in my opinion. I have a setup right now on my corp's forum for a passive shield tanking laser myrm with 110k EHP and cap stable Just a standings burner until I find a better use for it, but I'm aware the Myrm isn't what it used to be.
Relax. I'm an amazing breakdancer, but there are no videos of me on youtube. |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.21 00:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Lol. Hitting a nerve on this whole blaster thing eh? Two weeks (new hdd) I'll be happy to make some runs against pulse geddons. We go one round with webs and one without. Goal being to illustrate how the tracking advantages of blasters at close quarters are in fact obliterated by webs, not helped. You don't need to do 100% DPS to win. An AC ship using it's massive falloff and kiting a mega will most clearly illustrate that.
Mega vs Gedon, get in Range, shoot it, both ships wonŠt move since transversial will handycap both, Webs donŠt matter(without one the Gedon Pilote might try to get out of range slowly, but Gedons donŠt fit MWDs in general). You donŠt need a big Tracking advantage for this. I done this 3 Times vs a max Skilled Gedon(mostly equal to my Mega Skills) with about 50-30% Structure left in the end.
I personaly not fear a Minmatar ship that tryes to kite. I fear the ones that go in close. This is for a reason, try to 1o1 NightmareX for example...
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
You don't need to do 100% DPS to win.
Try agianst someone that is not a Noob...
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
And, yes, I'm aware that myrms aren't really the best blaster ships anymore after the nos nerf and the loss of their extra two heavies, but before that they were excellent pirate gankers with massive DPS and sustainable tanks. Only after nos got whacked has the AC myrm been the clear winner in my opinion. I have a setup right now on my corp's forum for a passive shield tanking laser myrm with 110k EHP and cap stable Just a standings burner until I find a better use for it, but I'm aware the Myrm isn't what it used to be.
Good for you. I never realy used BCs. They are like Destroyers, if you can fly a BS and a Cruiser well there is no real need for them. Also there is no solid reason to pasivetank a Myrmidon or Drake in PVP its simply a wast of slots. |
NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.08.21 01:02:00 -
[35]
No reason to passive tank in PvP? Well, good to know I'm using it as a standings burner since I'm a complete mission noob and have no agents and don't really care about the isk from anything else
If I can drive my enemies DPS to 40% and still come up with about 60%, that's a lot better than out-slugging him even if I know I'll win straight up almost purely because of better allocated base resists and damage types.
From the epistemological angle, the only reason we know it's best to go for 100% damage is because of tackling and focus fire etc etc. The existence of the web lets us aim for 100% damage as a goal. In a world without webs, there is no such thing as 100% damage and people try to massage their damage curves to give themselves the upper hand.
Chill |
BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.23 16:53:00 -
[36]
Without webs thered be nothing to make frieghters align faster
poudly annoying fc's since 2007
The pos debate:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=851738 |
marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:29:00 -
[37]
Edited by: marakor on 23/08/2008 20:31:31
Webs are the main anti nano module although nuets are also highly effective when used by a skilled pilot, in fact large nuets can be even more effective than a web when fitted on slow moving BS due to greater range than webs on all but mini recons, and the fact that they can take all thew cap from a nano turning off its MWD and making it very vulnerable and easy to kill.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:05:00 -
[38]
in space sims with no webs, small fast moving ships have a role, they spin and orbit so fast, that motherships have trouble hitting them
and heavy assault ships can not keep with the speed of scouts, so the scouts can engage and disengage, but not necessarily break the tank of the target.
if you really want to have a good impression of tracking, try X2 the Threat or X3 Reunion... there you need to aim your guns/hull manually, but you realize how hard it is to pop a small fast ship with big guns
webs essentially nullify the point of skirmish and speed...because every non caldari ship is capable of fitting them
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SERGI MANESTI
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: The Djego
Mega vs Gedon, get in Range, shoot it, both ships wonŠt move since transversial will handycap both, Webs donŠt matter(without one the Gedon Pilote might try to get out of range slowly, but Gedons donŠt fit MWDs in general). You donŠt need a big Tracking advantage for this. I done this 3 Times vs a max Skilled Gedon(mostly equal to my Mega Skills) with about 50-30% Structure left in the end.
i don't understand why you think neither ships will move.. that's pretty stupid when one weapon system is far less effective under certain tracking/range circumstances than another.. sure, you can get full blaster damage if both you and your target are stationary.. but the tracking on a Geddon is so bad that even a battleship w/o a mwd on can dodge a lot of it's damage if they are under it's optimal range.
yes, at a standstill the mega could potentially beat the Geddon.. but if the Megathron moved even slightly, the difference between the mega's dps and the geddon's dps actually gets LARGER. therefore, it would only benefit the mega to be in motion.
minmatar ships need to kite gallente ships and they need to get in tight and fast on amarr ships
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.08.24 07:11:00 -
[40]
Previous poster already beat me to the punch, but I'll go ahead and drive the point home for the sake of thoroughness...or trolling. Whichever you prefer
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
You don't need to do 100% DPS to win.
Try agianst someone that is not a Noob...
Well, I'll just hop in my AC Maelstrom that, because of CPU limitations, is almost undoubtedly going to have a little bit of speed gear in the ass with a decent shield tank + tackle in the mids.
It's not a freak of a solo ship as it can tank well enough to get back to gates on occasion. Good dps and sufficient tank with workable mids. Could pack it with fun rigs like ambit extension (makes incredible sense for mini AC boats with spare grid) and CCS etc etc. Not necessary here. The coffin is laid. (nothing to do with close range...where you get the idea that mini BS's are scary at close range against a mega?)
The battle goes something like this: The Maelstrom is faster and tanks a decent chunk of the Megas damage and leaves the mega in the dust. At best the Mega is left in a situation where it can't close range. Both ships are at zero transversal, but the Maelstrom's damage drops off a lot slower.
We'll be generous and assume the Mega pilot has some null and not make it a loaded example and assume the Maelstrom has barrage (forget about the incidental ton of explosive damage that comes with.)
Approaching the ~24k mark the Maelstrom just holds range and watches for any attempt by the Mega to turn back for disruptor range so he can warp. Overload is just a click away.
Neither ship is doing 100% damage here. But, oh wait! What's this! I hear singing!
Originally by: Matari Tribal Choir
'Tis the season to be jolly
Fa-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lloff
Deck the halls with boughs of holly
fa-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lloff
Don we now our gay apparel,
Fa-la-la-la-la-la-la-lalloff
Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
Fa-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lloff
Maelstrom absolutely creams the mega with cap to spare, and not by doing 100% damage Maelstrom might be able to tank the Mega (fact that it's a tier 3 BS hasn't escaped me) at close range, but it wins by a much larger margin by sacrificing a bit of DPS while kiting. I reiterate, if I can drop my enemies DPS by more than my own, I'm going to do it. If it takes range, fine. Transverse? Done. Maximum aggregate DPS is only going to be a goal in a gang/fleet situation where you want focus fire. The rest of the time, give a little, but take more.
I like hello kitty.
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