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Is there a point to Learning 5?

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Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:07:00 - [1] Edited by: Darkeen on 20/08/2008 04:07:56 Hello, Is there a point to training Learning to Rank 5 if your not sure if your going to be around in 3 years? One year, yes, I'll probably still be here... but 2+ - I dont know. I've got 7 skills at rank 4 and want to move them to rank 5. Working out the time to train learning to 5 is 7+ days. The total time saved by training all these skills to Rank 5 would be 33 hours (give or take an hour or two). Since I would be wasting almost 5 and a half days is there any point in doing the training? At what point do you say that it would be worth it? Training all Industry processing skills to Level 5? (why when you can go toa better station with better processing facilities...) When your training dreadnoughts with really high training times? When have you decided to get the Learning to 5?
Pedro Snachez 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:46:00 - [2] Well, considering it is a (relatively) quick train that boosts all of your attributes, I'd say it's definitely worth it. You might not think you'll train skills that make it worth it, but you'd be wrong. I don't even want to step into a capital ship and I've already got nearly 40 skills at level 5, with an endless string of them in the future. Use Evemon and literally set 365 days worth of skill training and see what it suggests. Moving 7 skills from 4 to 5 is really nothing, you'll probably want to do far more than that.
notaway Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:47:00 - [3] I think a better question would be "Is it worth it to take the advanced learning skills to lvl 5". I just installed Improved Implants and so I, of course, think faster training is a good thing but then, I don't scratch my head and wonder if I will still be playing a year from now since I buy the privlege to play a year at a time, not month by month.
Aesynil Caldari The Unit...	Posted - 2008.08.20 04:51:00 - [4] If your Learning skill takes 7 days to get to V, here's a few suggestions first. A) Make certain you have +3 Implants if at all possible. It makes a great difference. B) This is the usual path. Basic learning skills (Spatial awareness, learning, empathy, etc) brought to IV, then advanced learning (Eiditic memory, logic, etc) to IV. Then basics to V if you care to do it. Training Memory up first will make it go faster, as basics are obviously primary of memory. So training Memory to V, then Intelligence to V, then Learning to V is the best route. Half asleep, sorry if I make no sense. Moving on...My main point is that if it's taking 7 days, you need to work on your memory skill, if at all possible. Then, try to train your learnings in the proper order. 3 years is the payoff necessary for the advanced learning skills (The ones that take 15ish days). 1 year is the time it takes for getting All basic learning skills to V to pay off, I believe. Give or take, obviously. Ramble ramble ramble. Sleep now, hope that helps somewhat. P.S. Any skill to V later on takes forever. Download Evemon, and tinker with it if you haven't already. You'll see how useful it is.
notaway Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.20 05:31:00 - [5] Basically look at the areas u want to train and then see what attributes are best to train those areas and then train those learning skills and implants that will get u what u want the quickest... By the way, with rank 1 to lvl 5 and advanced to 4 taking Clarity to lvl 5 with improved implants is 11 1/3 days for me. Clarity improves the perception attribute which is necessary for the gunnery/space command skills etc and since I want faster training in those areas right now it makes sense to train Clarity and then Focus (willpower which is secondary attribute). When I get around to training skills that require other attributes will first train the advanced learning skill to 5 that increases the attribute for those areas...
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:46:00 - [6] Look at it this way: Learning is the only skill that you will use for every second that your subscription lasts.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 07:18:00 - [7] Originally by: notaway Basically look at the areas u want to train and then see what attributes are best to train those areas and then train those learning skills and implants that will get u what u want the quickest... Thats what I have done and I cant justify the time taken to learn it to the time it saves. +3 implants are not an option ATM (I only have 6 mill isk total) and I dont play 24x7 so I need to work my skills and training the best way I can.... If the time I saved with my 7 L4 skills (going to L5) was around 3 days then I'd consider it but only saving 33 hours (at best case) its just not worth it for me at this stage.... Never mind, I'll spend my time getting other skills trained. (I havent counted any learning skills as I'ver already got basic to l4 and most Advanced to L3 or L4 (barring charisma advanced)...
Elhina Novae Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.08.20 07:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Malcanis Look at it this way: Learning is the only skill that you will use for every second that your subscription lasts. ^This I say, Basics level 5, Advanced level 4. I just had my avarage "pay-off" on training that and I don't regret it a second
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.20 09:09:00 - [9] Edited by: Pottsey on 20/08/2008 09:09:46 I think Advanced level 5 skills can be worth it. Learning to Level 5 for sure is.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Avenging United	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:15:00 - [10] I don't think you see howmuch 33 hours saved actually is.

Miner Attribtest	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Miner Attribtest on 20/08/2008 14:44:43 Just look at it this way, Learning 4 to 5 will give you a 2 percent boost therfore take however long it takes to train and multiply by 50. It is not percise but it a good estimate. If that number you got is lower than you expect to be playing it will be worth it absolutly. Edit: Well apparently the forum doesn't like me today and switched my character.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:51:00 - [12] The basics to 5 are worth it, the Advanced to 5 it depends a bit more on your needs and gamestyle. I skilled only perception to the max, given the fact that i spend mutch of my SP in combat realted Skills. If you are more for Industry or Sience maxing out Inteligence can be usefull. On my 2. Char I maxed them all(exept Charisma, and no it¦s not a Achura), but this was in the beginning and you don¦t miss something because you allready got a char to work with. My main reason was simply to build the Char as perfect as possible(and after a year the char got nearly 20 M SP, not bad at all). This was a personal decision, I know it will not realy pay off in the end(if you got 40-50 M SP, it doesn¦t realy matter if you loose a day or two) but i was not in a hurry and maxed it out. Do 4/4 if you don¦t know how long you will play. Do 5\4 if you are shure that EvE is your game, do 5/5 if you realy want it in a special area(giving the Char an edge) or if you are purely after maxing out things. In some weaks a couple of SP won¦t realy matter any more.
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:36:00 - [13] lvl 5 basics, lvl 5 advanced +5 implants... there is big difference between 2200 SP/hour and 2700 SP/hour... this combo is very good for chars that you train offline/afk... for main chars, who PvP a lot use lvl 5 basics, lvl 4 advanced +4 implants and empty clones for 0.0 the difference is huge, you can't miss extra 3 points of attributes and invest money in faction stuff the difference between 5 4 4 and 5 5 5 is 3-4 points, because learnings give extra 5% or so... and that means more than 2 points
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Opertone lvl 5 basics, lvl 5 advanced +5 implants... there is big difference between 2200 SP/hour and 2700 SP/hour... this combo is very good for chars that you train offline/afk... for main chars, who PvP a lot use lvl 5 basics, lvl 4 advanced +4 implants and empty clones for 0.0 the difference is huge, you can't miss extra 3 2.2 points of attributes and invest money in faction stuff the difference between 5 4 4 and 5 5 5 is ~~3-4~~ 2.2 points, because learnings give extra ~~5% or so...~~ 10% and that means ~~more than~~ 2.2 points Well I fixed your post as best I could but where did those numbers come from... I dont have evemon here atm but I don't believe a 2.2 stat bonus gives a 500sp/hour increase fool!
Zechs Kushrenada Caldari Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 20/08/2008 09:09:46 I think Advanced level 5 skills can be worth it. Learning to Level 5 for sure is. Well not to be a big 'nudge' but for me with +4 implants it's not worth it to lvl the advanced learning skills to 5.....(they are at 4 right now). according to evemon skilling em to 5 won't pay off untill I make a 4 to 5 year skill list..... and then it only saves me like 10 to 20 days.... on 4,5 years......
Anne Perran	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:31:00 - [16] This is what you're looking for. Has all the payoff times for Learning 4->5, Basic 4->5, Advanced 4->5. Check the bottom of the first post.
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.21 23:38:00 - [17] Edited by: Opertone on 21/08/2008 23:43:18 for minimatar only amarr start with 17 willpower base, +5 +5 +5 x1.1 = 35.2 as opposed to +4 +4 +4 x1.1 = 31.9 - 3.3 and now we look at +4 +4 +3 = 30.8 - 4.4 and finally +4 +4 = 27.5 - 7.7 6 percetion +5 +5 +5, x1.1 - 23.1 so 46.75 - 2805 SP/hour on tech 2 ships - 5 5 5 or 43.45 - 2607 SP hour on tech 2 ships -5 4 4 or 41.8 - 2508 SP/hour on tech 2 ships - 4 4 4 or 40.15 - 2409 SP/hour on tech 2 ships - 4 4 3 if 35.2 - 2112 SP/hour on tech 2 ships - 4 4 0 every extra combined attribute point gives 60 SP/hour, this is why maxing out the attributes is essential in your career 5 5 5 is a 33% gain over 4 4 0 5 5 5 is a 16% gain over 4 4 4 5 5 5 is an 8% gain over 5 4 4 *only in case of maximized attributes
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.22 05:04:00 - [18] My understanding is that the return on investment is about 1 year for basics + learning to 5, and advanced to 4 (skip charisma if your not going to use it). To justify training advanced learning skills to 5 requires a about a 3 year time horizon to break even on the training investment. Whether you want to make an investment that will not pay off for 3 years is something only you can decide, for me its 5s/4s ç¦
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Zechs Kushrenada Well not to be a big 'nudge' but for me with +4 implants it's not worth it to lvl the advanced learning skills to 5.....(they are at 4 right now). according to evemon skilling em to 5 won't pay off untill I make a 4 to 5 year skill list..... and then it only saves me like 10 to 20 days.... on 4,5 years...... THATS is Exactly what I have found. Doing the Calculations using Evemon and EMSP I cant see learnign skils ot 5 as paying off for 4-5 years. Heck I cant see it even breraking even until 3-4 years at best - certainly not with the character and base skills that I have.. Maybe Caldari Achura but not with gallente / gallente... I realise that you are all trying to provide as much info as possible to help me/us make a decision as to whether getting the learnign is worth it. For 5+ years of skills, yes getting the learnign ASAP is defineitly worth it. But as far as I can see, with a Std character (not min maxed as Caldari Achura may be) the cost in time to train cant be justified by the time you save - they have to be equal to break even and you have to gain to get the benefit. Regards, Jason Brisbane
Clueless Alt	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:27:00 - [20] You can also train to lvl 5 primary attribute. l5 in basic learning, l4 in advanced (l5 in perc) for example. It pay off before 4/5 years. ;)

Atlas Elestra Titan Mining LLC	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:26:00 - [21] If ISK is a hurdle to getting the +3 implants I suggest doing some level 3 mission running. The storyline missions will most often reward you with a +3 implant. Plus your building ISK and LP to pick up the other implants you need/want. I'm at 4/3 +3 for all my skills except the Charisma skills 3/0, Learning at 4. I know I need to push them to 4/4 and bump Charisma up to 4/4 as well just kinda lazy about it... ôSalvage is as much an art as building the ship itself. We take rubble and make rigs, now that takes Talent.ö
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Darkeen Originally by: Zechs Kushrenada Well not to be a big 'nudge' but for me with +4 implants it's not worth it to lvl the advanced learning skills to 5.....(they are at 4 right now). according to evemon skilling em to 5 won't pay off untill I make a 4 to 5 year skill list..... and then it only saves me like 10 to 20 days.... on 4,5 years...... THATS is Exactly what I have found. Doing the Calculations using Evemon and EMSP I cant see learnign skils ot 5 as paying off for 4-5 years. Heck I cant see it even breraking even until 3-4 years at best - certainly not with the character and base skills that I have.. Maybe Caldari Achura but not with gallente / gallente... I realise that you are all trying to provide as much info as possible to help me/us make a decision as to whether getting the learnign is worth it. For 5+ years of skills, yes getting the learnign ASAP is defineitly worth it. But as far as I can see, with a Std character (not min maxed as Caldari Achura may be) the cost in time to train cant be justified by the time you save - they have to be equal to break even and you have to gain to get the benefit. 4 years? Learning adds +2% SP/level. Therefore the length of time taken to train to 5 x 50 ~ payback time (the exact figure depends on your stat balance). Generally 200-250 days, which is, what? 7-8 months. If you're planning to be in the game much longer than this, then it's a no-brainer to train learning 5. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Darkeen getting the learnign is worth it For a new player those long-training-time training skills should come only after you've trained the fun stuff. As generic path: - Train the fast learning skills (Learning + 5 basic skills) to level 2-3 - Train stuff so can you can have fun with missions etc - Join a corp. If you have anyone that knows you, ask him to donate or loan you 5x basic +3 implants, on promise that you won't lose your pod for a while (that is, you wont enter lowsec/0.0). Even If I don't want to spoil my RL friends starting experience by throwing them millions of ISK, I wouldn't hesitate at all giving them full implants. - Along playing, train Learning to lv4, Basic learnings to lv4, and Advancing learnings to lv3-4 -> you now train about as fast as everyone else - After some 3-4 months, if Eve still feels promising, try to find time to train Learning to lv5, and Advanced learning skills to lv4. Those pay of in time; and you'll only lose a bit training time (couple days) compared to having all of them from start.. - And if you eventually fall in love with the training concept, or want compete with the speed of training, get Adv.learning skill/skills up to lv5 too.. So although the 'optimal' learning strategy calls for getting training skills from start, it still might be far from 'optimal' experience for a new player. Thus the advice to newbie should be different than advice how you would train your new research alt.. -Lasse
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:49:00 - [24] people fail to realize that a char with 5 - 5 - 5 will have more SP in the final run than the char with 5 - 4 - 4 ... although some of the SP might be in the learning branch people also do not understand clearly that the initial choices dictates you specialization in eve... there two attribute combos perception will power, intelligence memory... the sum of two attributes affects how fast you train combat or non combat branch support skills, such as engineering navigation and mechanics basics are trained on both combat and non combat path, so there is not much difference (support makes up only a small part of the total SP) if you have to play the game right, you need to decide what you want more... or you will be forever lagging behind for combat choose maximum perception and willpower, for industry choose maximum memory and intelligence... these two branches have the most total SP to be learnt in other words, once you choose your profession you have to max out your primary attribute pair... not all 5 of them, 5 5 5 on perception and 5 5 5 on willpower gives you exactly 2.2 + 1.1 points of advantage which translates into 3.3 by 60 198 SP/hour in your profession you focus on only one branch, but you also train other branch to much lower extent... PvPers have to learn science skills to get advanced t2 ships adn modules but that is hardly 5% of their total training time. while for a PvPer spaceship command and weapon systems make most of the training time if you mix your attributes in a wrong way you will become a carebear and unable to compete with other PVP chars... or at least will spend much longer to focus on something... while other will be crosstraining to multiple races already
Loraen	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:20:00 - [25] Well, if the OP meant simply the skill named "Learning" from 4 to 5 and it's 2% increase.. Here's simple math. You start with 39 attribute points. If you've now trained all basic and advanced learning skills to 4 and you have a +3 implant set, that means 94 attribute points total. Thus each level in the skill "Learning" will give you almost +2 attribute points, although spread somewhat evenly to all your 5 attributes. On the whole, that's better improvement than the +1 from any other learning category skill.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:54:00 - [26] Edited by: Pottsey on 25/08/2008 10:54:34 "according to evemon skilling em to 5 won't pay off untill I make a 4 to 5 year skill list" There is one big flaw with payoff, people assume they know what skills they need in 4months or 3 years. People assume they can train a skill instead learning skills. Yet people have massive unplanned change of careers. Every time you have an unplanned change of career with a new skill set high leaning skills pay them self back right from day 1. People told me I was crazy in getting adv5 years back, then 10mill+ of gang assist and social skills came out and I trained them all. Then I had a change of ship type and weapon system so I got another 10mill in a new weapon system. I couldn't have trained those weapon instead of adv5 as I didn't know I would need them. According to payoff I was worse off, in fact I was way ahead in useful skill points. The day I started training new skills I was ahead in useful skill points. Not 4 years. Sure payoff is correct but only if you stick to a ridged skill plan and never get any new skills. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Cheru'bael Amarr Ordo Ministorum	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Darkeen When have you decided to get the Learning to 5? my philosophy is simple: only train learning skills when it would shave more time off the non-learning skill skill you really want to train. So if it took me a week to train a learning skill, i'm looking at a skill that would take a realllly long time. personally, the idea that long term planning pays off by maxxing learning skills in the beginning is somehow the way i want to encourage players to play the game, and have fun, is not for me. The only time i'd counsel someone to go for broke with training basic learning to lvl5 and the advanced to lvl4+ is when some jackass n00b who's fresh out of the academy trying to tell me he's going to fly a titan/dreadnaught/omgcommandship ASAP. ___________________________________________ Ordo Ministorum (backup)
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:46:00 - [28] Learning is the very first skill in the Learning tree that you should get to V. Why? Because it boosts your base stats and the bonus from your implants as well. With Learning V, that +3 implant is now a +3.3 implant, in addition to whatever your (base stat + learning skill) * Learning is. No-brainer really. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Quinton McTish Citizens Coup Network	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:15:00 - [29] Well depending on how long you're planning on playing EVE and what you go for, it depends. If you're just here to snag a barge, process minerals and sell them on the market, chances are you can get all that in a reasonable amount of time and then do the longer term skills. I, myself, decided to mix it up a bit and do all my learning skills while I was not playing, then when I was actively playing... learn other stuff. At the point I'm at now, I can do some mission runs, drill for ice/ore, and process with great efficiency. At this point, I'm letting all of my basic and advanced learning skills get done. It's gonna take awhile, sure... but I've got plenty to do while it's working. The payoff? Shorter timers all around for all skills. I think that's worth it. It's a long term payout. So it really depends what you're gonna do and when you want to do it... and if you decide to do something else in the meantime. :)
degini Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:15:00 - [30] The attribute skills take years to pay off, the LEARNING SKILL ITSELF pays off after a year. By paying off, i mean if i queue up a full years worth of stuff in evemon, training learning 5 will drop it by a day. However, getting advanced to 4 drops that by a further 2 weeks. So definately get 4/4 and learning 5 if you plan to play longer than 1 year. You don't have to do it all right away before training anything else. That makes the game boring. Just squeeze them in when you can. If you lose a few days over the course of a year, who cares.

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