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So how is FW going

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Author	Topic
Mostly Amazing Gallente Mostly Amazing Corp	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:26:00 - [1] If you keep close eye on the forums than you'll have noticed there's a lot less posts about FW than there was when it first came out. Is there just happening less to post about or are people dropping out? Are there people that played it a lot when it first came out and stopped now? And if so, why did you stop?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.20 10:40:00 - [2] Oh, my... where do I start... No significant rewards for doing good, no incentive to capture systems beyond e-peen stroking, no reason to fly in FW areas except looking for mindless PvP fun, the novelty of it is starting to run thin, the highsec navy NPCs aren't implemented properly, and so on and so forth. I expect an almost complete lack of interest towards FW in half a year tops, unless something is done soon.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:24:00 - [3] Originally by: Akita T Oh, my... where do I start... No significant rewards for doing good, no incentive to capture systems beyond e-peen stroking, no reason to fly in FW areas except looking for mindless PvP fun, the novelty of it is starting to run thin, the highsec navy NPCs aren't implemented properly, and so on and so forth. I expect an almost complete lack of interest towards FW in half a year tops, unless something is done soon. I have to agree here with everything here except the high sec navy. While I think that they are fine as they are and Akita does not, they are irrelevant to the success of FW. No one is going to really quit or not participate over that specific game mechanic. Anyway.... Its a huge isk sink and right now without some kind of reward... its not worth it. The noobs are staying home now for the most part and the real fighters are in it. Battles are tougher, kills harder to come by, and the reasons for continuing are getting smaller.
Babel Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:25:00 - [4] Forums ≠ Game Maybe the FW peeps are not posting as they have little to whine about or are very busy playing? :) Apologies for sullying the forums with a positive comment btw, I know it's like really uncool and I should know better, but it's the only way I can get people take any notice of me :(
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Babel Forums ≠ Game Maybe the FW peeps are not posting as they have little to whine about or are very busy playing? :) Apologies for sullying the forums with a positive comment btw, I know it's like really uncool and I should know better, but it's the only way I can get people take any notice of me :( Maybe, This akita idiot is just a troll so dont include him in it.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Akita T on 20/08/2008 11:29:39 Originally by: Babel Maybe the FW peeps are not posting The poster right above you is a member of arguably the most well-known Gallente militia player corp, the corp that "sieged" Jita, amongst other deeds. The only thing we disagree about is the implementation of highsec NPCs, in everything else we agree, it seems Originally by: Steve Hawkings Maybe, This akita idiot is just a troll so dont include him in it. Still holding a grudge for "not winning an argument over the Internet" ?
Siberys Gallente Nebula Sharks	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:29:00 - [7] Yea... I did FW for one morning, teamed up with some guys on vent, nearly lost my harbinger three times to an Ishtar, ran away, our fleet got pwned by a mega, and me and a caracal began hiding in mimy lowsec (I joined Amarr) where I logged off for two hours, only to log back on and get killed by a nano rupture. That was the high point at which I quit, 'cause I had seen about all of it.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Babel Forums ≠ Game Maybe the FW peeps are not posting as they have little to whine about or are very busy playing? :) Apologies for sullying the forums with a positive comment btw, I know it's like really uncool and I should know better, but it's the only way I can get people take any notice of me :( Myself not being the most popular bloke around I have to agree with ya. Normally people come to the forums to whine,***** and scream. IF we were to see a flood of people crying continously about FW then the 1st poster to reply to the thread would be right. Theres a big mixture of players in FW. SOme have little isk as they are new to the game while others have godly isk flow. I dont have godly amounts of isk flowing but i got more then enough and I make sure my corp is doing well on top of that. Is it a huge isk sink? Well that all depends on what your flying, how your flying and what you are expecting when you undock. I always assume all ships I use will be toasted as well as my pod. Mindless pvp gives people a reason to earn that isk instead of just trying to become a billionare so they can buy a freighter they will never use. I don't know where people get the idea that FW was meant to be a big bag of isk and prizes just for showing up. I never read anything from the devs about it. If your looking for rewards as in isk and ships for pvping, your seriously lost and need to reevaluate what pvp is meant to be. chances are you'll never make it in 0.0 for more then a month(actually id go with a week but im being generous here.) If your in FW you should take a few days a week to earn isk then spend the rest of the time using that isk to have fun. If your not having fun pvping then mayyyyybeeeee you should go into mining full time. Just a suggestion. But if you do what I say, you'll stop seeing eve as a game where you need tons of isk ....just to see a phatnumber in your wallet. How can someone NOT have fun in an area where you can fly a t1 frig into pvp and get away with it?? You'd probably get tossed out of some alliance for that move! its meant to be fun so forget your wallet worries and get in a ship you can afford to lose several times over.
Babel Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:41:00 - [9] Edited by: Babel on 20/08/2008 11:41:26 Originally by: ShardowRhino sense What? The answer is not completely black or white but a complex of factors? Is that what you mean? ... does not compute ... head explodes
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:56:00 - [10] My corporation is enjoying FW very much .. and not operating in low-sec area .. bigger fish swims in hi-sec

Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Kuolematon My corporation is enjoying FW very much .. and not operating in low-sec area .. bigger fish swims in hi-sec You caldari i hope?
Roc Wieler Freeform Industries	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:13:00 - [12] I really enjoy the war, sick and twisted as that may sound. I like being able to help a cause through PVE. I like being RP into it. I like that I get exposed to PVP, in a somewhat controlled manner most of the time. I am learning about ships I didn't really know about before. I get to FC regularly, which I didn't do before the war. I have a lot more direction for my character goals which I didn't have as much before the war. I've met some really nice people during the war, and I've killed some Amarr and Caldari. Really, what more could there be?
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 20/08/2008 13:24:23 Disclaimer - I can only speak to what I'm noticing in Gallente vs Caldari FW. No idea about how Amarr vs Minmatar is going. I have to agree that there's some changes that are definately taking place (I don't necessarily think they are bad, merely recognizing them). Its easy to see that fleets are getting smaller and that fights are getting harder to come by and the people who are fighting are more skilled than a few weeks ago. I think you'll see a consolidation period where most people really interested in FW will consolidate themselves into corporations and you'll see a lot more small gang fights (especially once the speed patch goes into effect - because in small gang warfare nano's are the primary deterrent for low SP players to get involved with that). The biggest hindrance to that process right now is war decs but I have a feeling like the way that works will be modified since in its current form its breaking FW - which is CCP's latest "greatest" feature. Right now that seems to be what is happening and the larger 80 man fleets are rare these days, partially because its pointless. The typical big fleet fight scenario usually goes like this : 1) Side A forms fleet, enters low sec, tries to find enemy fleet. 2) Side B forms larger fleet, enters low sec, tries to find fleet A. 3) Fleet A's scouts see Fleet B is much larger, Fleet A runs into high sec to pick up more people. 4) Fleet A is now larger than B, Fleet B has shrank because so much time without fighting has passed, Fleet B evades Fleet A and tries to pick up more people. This continues until an FC willingly enters a fight outgunned. It will eventually happen but there's a lot of cat and mouse and time wasting which frustrates people. The eventual conclusion people draw is that its better to run around in a 10 man gang and pick off stragglers and plexers while eluding the larger fleets. Furthermore a lot of this may be related to the fact that the toll on people's wallets is starting to catch up with them. I'd forecast that a year from now, FW will be dominated by a lot of gang gate camping (think Tama) and the fights will be on a smaller scale (20 vs 20), with the weekends still having some larger "n00b fleet" fights. High sec "suicide missions" will also exist during peak weekend times simply because of the ability to guarantee winnable fights within a given timeframe - something you cannot accomplish necessarily in Black Rise for instance since if you're finding gangs running around they're often equipped to either elude your gang or defeat your gang. Plexing is even worse, this is how plexing often goes when the general militia does it (individual corps probably have less issues with this) : 1) Small plexing gang forms, usually low SP, less experienced pilots. 2) Plexing gang uses scouts to get to their target system, this process takes a long time if evading other fleets/gangs and on the Caldari side these groups need to enter Black Rise through alternate entrances to avoid getting 'tails' attached to them as they make their way. 3) Plexing gang makes it to system, scans out plexes. This is time consuming because they need plexes that meet their ship type profiles. Lots of systems you'll scan twice from every planet and not find a single plex. This makes people pretty annoyed from the get go. 4) Spends twenty minutes cap'ing plex, boring and time consuming and if they are jumped they will have no chance but to leave entirely since they're at a distinct disadvantage trying to hold the field against even or superior numbers spread apart and weakened. The rewards are meh, just standings increase and some loot from the kills. Altogether plexing is sort of broken right now.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:38:00 - [14] FW is great. For more details see ShardowRhino's post.
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Threv Echandari on 20/08/2008 13:53:37 Shadow and Beltanis make the most cogent points. Small Gang PvP between more Exprerienced players seems to be coming together (OMG who'd have thunk it) While plexers play cat and mouse with the hunters. after taking awhile to get anything done. FW Missions Suck. Auto balancing isn't working since they are not worth doing in the first place so there is nothing to blanace it seems. If you have another source of ISK Income FW is not so much of a problem as long as you don't keep bringing anything too expensive. I am still enjoying FW. I can fly what I want, when I want without Sov Worries and Bubblecamp BS. (Money-making is handled by alts much to the dismay of many, but hey thats what most every other "PvPer" does despite protestations to the contrary, its the dirty little secret most PvPers have a Carebear alt running level 4's or Trading or buys their isk, how ironic is that..) The Alt-less Money was better in 0.0 but not enough to make me want to go back. 0.0 was lagfest full of blob and felt too much like a job after awhile. While I miss my old Corp, I don't miss too much else.
Pliskkenn Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Siberys Yea... I did FW for one morning, teamed up with some guys on vent, nearly lost my harbinger three times to an Ishtar, ran away, our fleet got pwned by a mega, and me and a caracal began hiding in mimy lowsec (I joined Amarr) where I logged off for two hours, only to log back on and get killed by a nano rupture. That was the high point at which I quit, 'cause I had seen about all of it. Nano-Rupture? Wha?
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:19:00 - [17] One more point on FW - you'll notice I didn't touch upon missions in my previous post. This is because, tbh, most FW participants forget they exist entirely. That is because they're so incredibly pointless right now. Its impossible to get people excited about running missions in FW for the following reasons: 1) Plexing gives you more flexibility in that you don't have to complete it and you can do it in a variety of systems rather than being locked in to a single system which might be heavily guarded or camped. 2) If I wanted to run missions I'd do it in high sec for more money, because I can't get people together to run missions in FW so I need to do it solo. That fact restricts me to missions level II and under because to fly solo I need to fly a frigate sized or cruiser sized ship or I will die to gate camps. 3) The rewards are comparable to plexing but mission running is actually harder for the reasons stated above. If you really wanted to make FW awesometacular (tm), you'd make it viable to entirely sustain yourself ISK-wise on FW mission running. This would allow more people to move into low sec, because small corps could make lots of money running FW missions and keep themselves fitted in T2 gear and faction ammo. More war targets living out of low sec is a great thing for FW because it creates fights and it creates a viable economy and market there. So my solution would be to dramatically increase the ISK payouts on missions.
Helios III	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Babel Forums ≠ Game Maybe the FW peeps are not posting as they have little to whine about or are very busy playing? :) Apologies for sullying the forums with a positive comment btw, I know it's like really uncool and I should know better, but it's the only way I can get people take any notice of me :( One does not simply post a positive comment on the forums...
FluterEx Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:11:00 - [19] Well FW is fun so far. flying around in small fleets to find enemys to fight and if we find none we go plexing. And no i dont do blob warfare (biggest fleet that i joined had 19 pilots and was mostly made of BC and cruisers). And i have to say even if you dont find someone to fight sometimes, plexing is more fun than camping a gate for hours.
Shagrath Neptune Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:20:00 - [20] Originally by: ShardowRhino I don't know where people get the idea that FW was meant to be a big bag of isk and prizes just for showing up. I never read anything from the devs about it. If your looking for rewards as in isk and ships for pvping, your seriously lost and need to reevaluate what pvp is meant to be. chances are you'll never make it in 0.0 for more then a month(actually id go with a week but im being generous here.) its meant to be fun so forget your wallet worries and get in a ship you can afford to lose several times over. This TBH. I don't understand why people think they should get paid to participate. Not everything in this game pays off like a mission so stop asking for isk.

SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:51:00 - [21] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 20/08/2008 20:55:55 FW in its current format is utter crap. I guess it functions alright as a glorified excuse to go into low-sec and shoot other people, but I was doing that anyway, so I sort of expected more from FW. You know, something that at least vaguely resembles a purpose. I logged on the other day in Villore. Checked militia chat, blahblahblah enemy blob on the Villore gate in Old Man Star, fleet forming at planet 3 in villore, etc. Wonderful. So I'm sitting with the fleet that's forming for about 20-30 minute while we ensure that we have a blob large enough to steamroll the opposing force because everyone is a big bleeding vagina and doesn't want to fight unless they're sure they can secure a landslide victory. I'm sure some of that wait included logistics for the not one, but TWO dreadnoughts we hotdropped on them. Anyway, while I'm waiting, it occurs to me that this is pretty stupid. While that gate serves some strategic/logistical importance, it's not vital enough (especially considering that, in the end, it can't be secured by the enemy without a constant devotion of resources anyway) to warrant 70+ people spending a half hour in preparation to clear. There are other ways into the warzone just a few jumps away. One would think that the logical thing for us to do, since they had essentially every last pilot parked in one place, would be to go around them, split up into small groups, and go nuts capturing undefended complexes until they wise up, but why bother? FW is objective-based, but the objectives are completely meaningless. The objectives (complexes) serve no strategic, tactical, or logistical function. Conquering a system serves no function. Holding a system doesn't grant access to any scarce resources. For **'s sake, it doesn't even prevent enemies from docking there. So, instead of people trying to capture/defend objectives (which would make sense), they show up just to fight. That's fun and all, for a little while, but it's pretty unsatisfying. All of those objectives and 90% of the fighting takes place at gates anyway. Additional horseshit factors: 1. The limitations on ships entering complexes. On the off chance that you DO come across a plex that you COULD potentially fight over, odds are that you are physically restricted from fighting over it anyway because you're in the wrong ing ship. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if they capture the plex anyway because we've already established that they're utterly meaningless. 2. But maybe you ARE in a small enough ship. Congratulations! You're at an objective, and so is an enemy! You're actually fighting over objectives! This is good! Except, for one of you, this is going to be 90% PvE and about 10% PvP. Go figure. 3. Then there are the plexes themselves. Who came up with this concept, and what were they on? Where can I get some, and tell the truth: whatever it is, is it REALLY that debilitating? A beacon with a bunch of ships floating around it is not a *ing "military installation". And why are they hidden randomly in space? I mean really, has anyone considered just how idiotic it is that you could have a gigantic, completely uncontested force in a system, and they physically can't capture it because, as it happens, there are no military installations in the system at the time.* Mull that over for a while. No enemy military presence...impossible to capture. Huge fleet jumps into a system, scans all of the planets, notes that their enemies have no military present. Their FC shrugs his shoulders and says, "Well, there's no opposing force here, so I guess we'll just have to come back later," and they all move along. So the system is not only awkwardly contrived, but it also makes no sense at all. There are a lot of other little things, but I'm both lazy and nearly out of characters.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:58:00 - [22] Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 20/08/2008 21:03:45 The real issue of FW is the outside interference. Such as neutrals repping ships, stealing loots, flying as spies. Frankly, I'd like to see all ships NOT in FW to be omitted from entering the low sec regions. Then once that happens, we can have a real militia vs militia battle that would encompass POS as well. The only threat to the Gallente militia in FW space, should be the Caldari militia. This would stir up some interesting game situations. Perhaps even bring industries into FW to mine the low secs and provide manufacturing for the militias. Of course that is just one sour taste... others include a flawed war scheme... no real gains in complex raids... lamer pvp... and spies spies spies. EDIT: new idea... have all militia players in militia space able to fire on ALL ships, including neutrals. You are in a militia warzone, and they get rights to shoot as if it was 0.0. However, neutrals are still tied to low sec rules. THAT would seriously rule!
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Frankly, I'd like to see all ships NOT in FW to be omitted from entering the low sec regions. **** off, TBH. MOST of those regions were present long before this FW came about. Non-participants have plenty of assets in them which should not be forfeit just because you erroneously think "neutral interference" is having a major impact on your masturbatory little mini-game.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:09:00 - [24] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 20/08/2008 21:09:44 Originally by: Shagrath Neptune This TBH. I don't understand why people think they should get paid to participate. Not everything in this game pays off like a mission so stop asking for isk. I don't need to be paid but I'd like to go out and look for a fight and find it. I think if you made it viable to make a living off of it, people would do it. Right now the 'modus operandi' is that people go on holiday into low sec to blow people up and then go back to high sec - there would be more targets if they actually lived there. Edited to add - There's nothing quite as frustrating as forming up a fleet only to find out the fleet you were going after has dispersed by the time you're done getting everything organized. Less wait, more pew.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 20/08/2008 21:09:44 Originally by: Shagrath Neptune This TBH. I don't understand why people think they should get paid to participate. Not everything in this game pays off like a mission so stop asking for isk. I don't need to be paid but I'd like to go out and look for a fight and find it. I think if you made it viable to make a living off of it, people would do it. Right now the 'modus operandi' is that people go on holiday into low sec to blow people up and then go back to high sec - there would be more targets if they actually lived there. Edited to add - There's nothing quite as frustrating as forming up a fleet only to find out the fleet you were going after has dispersed by the time you're done getting everything organized. Less wait, more pew. I don't mind it being an ISK sink, really, but it does bother me that the objectives themselves serve absolutely no function even within the context of the war itself. Capturing a system changes NOTHING except for the text in the "occupancy" listing. The end result of this, accompanied by some other factors, is that most people aren't motivated to bother with the plexes, and the majority of fighting is gate-and-station camping.
Slaver Hatastus	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 20/08/2008 21:09:44 Originally by: Shagrath Neptune This TBH. I don't understand why people think they should get paid to participate. Not everything in this game pays off like a mission so stop asking for isk. I don't need to be paid but I'd like to go out and look for a fight and find it. I think if you made it viable to make a living off of it, people would do it. Right now the 'modus operandi' is that people go on holiday into low sec to blow people up and then go back to high sec - there would be more targets if they actually lived there. Edited to add - There's nothing quite as frustrating as forming up a fleet only to find out the fleet you were going after has dispersed by the time you're done getting everything organized. Less wait, more pew. i also don't expect to be paid for it, but at the same time if i didn't have to keep earning ISK to keep replacing ships/mods, i would be able to participate a lot more. there's a difference between expecting to get rich and wanting some kind of income stream to allow continued fighting.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:18:00 - [27] For such an increadably deep game, I'm often surprised how few mechanics are available to induce player actions. Sovereignty and FW are just two examples where the mechanics seem to be very lacking in both sophistication or uniqueness.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:25:00 - [28] A couple of easy to implement ideas to make FW a little more meaningful: 1) Complexs provide a fixed number of LPs that get distributed to people that capture 2) Complex NPCs are largely or entirely replaced by static defenses, primarily warp disruption batteries that prevent speed tanking frigates/interceptors from being immune within complexes. This also make complexes more PVP versus PVE experiences. 3) replace current missions with PVP missions that are tied into the storyline of FW. If FW is the way to guide people into PVP why not co-opt the mission system to send pod pilots towrd each other. a PVP mission in FW would look like this: 1)Every mission needs 2 parties to make it happen (eg, 1 caldari, 1 gallente): This would not only ensure that it was PVP focused but also balance out the sides (if everyone is caldari, then there wouldnÆt be missions for them as there were no gallente sides) 2)Mission sends both parties to a contested system victory point, those victory points can not be scanned out, nor can ships/drones, etc be scanned out within them. One side is the defender, the other the attacker. 3)Each mission/side has a point structure, allowable ship types and a recommended and maximum number of allowable points. Assume that Level 1 missions are for tech 1 or 2 frigs and 4 players, level 2 are for tech 1 or 2 frigs tech 1 cruisers and tech 1 battlecruisers/battleships and 8 players, level 3 are for all ship types, 8 players and level 4 for all tech 1 and 2 battleship and below and 32 players (fleet warfare). These point structures change by mission, and arenÆt always the same on each side so no ôwinningö formulas (ie, dual guardian for the slow painful win), and each side is given an indication of what they will face based on how the points are allocated, of course instead of 4 interceptors, one side might take 8 noob ships that total out to the same points so you really wonÆt know how many or what ships you will face. 4)Winning side gets rewards, based upon 2 factors: a) total point value of their ships that entered the victory point with 0 reward if exceeded max allowed points and b) the ranks of the opposing playerÆs team. This means you would get a lot more rewards for beating top ranked players with a small group, less if you won with a large group against noobs and nothing if you blobbed the victory point. Of course either side could camp the gates in between, etc but at least this would guarantee that the end PVP result would be what I think most new and older players regard as fun.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:31:00 - [29] 1) fw is fun 2) the rewards are very small or nonexistant which in consequence fails to retain participants and it gets harder to find fights 3) there are no real consequences so far to victories and losses 4) nevertheless it's fun but for the longterm they need to improve it
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.20 22:47:00 - [30] FW PvP can be fun as it is smaller gangs (at least between Minmatar and Amarr) and you can find PvP pretty easily all the time. That said, the rest of it is pretty much crap. There is no reason at all to run the complexes not to mention they are terribly boring. There is also no reason to run the faction warfare missions as regular missions are much much more profitable and can be done in high-sec safety. I guess it is great for people looking for small gang PvP action that is casual and doesn't take any sort of dedication like a real corporation or alliance would. It is a nice addition to the game and I am sure thousands of people will be in the militias for a long time to come, but it surely is not going to be a thing that a large percentage of the playerbase participates in.

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