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Author	Topic
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 23:36:00 - [31] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/08/2008 23:40:45 Originally by: Antodias I've been on the test server too, and I disagree with this. Especially blasterboats, that's just completely false unless you're soloing with some of the bigger blasterboats. Yeah things will change, but not as much as everyone is thinking, and Amarr's position of FOTM will be secured, but the fact is I don't see any race as being as "broken" as anyone percieves. AFACT, the battleship blaster boats are simply dead (and I was on the test server too). Their effectiveness is drastically cut, and torps have 100% taken over any duty that they may have had before. Of course, with more range too. The web changes really hurt BS blaster ships. -Liang Ed: Of course, it's good to have more than one viewpoint on this... but there's a 20+ page thread in gamedev full of people being like... "Dude, my blaster ship. WTF CCP?"
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.20 23:49:00 - [32] Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:51:28 Originally by: Antodias Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Zappapapa Gallente also have drone and ewar based ships, minmatar have other ships that don't rely completely on speed. Not to mention most of these "overall style" nerfs are highly exaggerated in their effect. Ok, so we're just nerfing blaster boats into the stone age. What if that's the style of play that you liked? Also, having been on test... no, they are not exagerated. Nano is dead, whether you were "supposedly" supposed to be a nanoship or not. -Liang I've been on the test server too, and I disagree with this. Especially blasterboats, that's just completely false unless you're soloing with some of the bigger blasterboats. Yeah things will change, but not as much as everyone is thinking, and Amarr's position of FOTM will be secured, but the fact is I don't see any race as being as "broken" as anyone percieves. I agree that the problem apears less on the small Ships, but even a Thorax have a preaty hard time to keep a Target in place. Don¦t get me wrong I still won mutch fights on Sissi with it, but there are several new Drawbacks that I can compensate by high Skills, experience and tactics, but still you loose something and against a good Pilote it will be as close as it can be, leading in a scenario close to Nano Ships today, piloting failures(even little ones) will lead to death. I tryed the most on Blaster BS, because it¦s my common ship of use. Soloing is very important to me, esepecialy with the BS. It allready got lots of drawbacks, but it still works out in many cases. If you put away the solo ability there is not mutch left in a Blaster ship. Lasers and Missles are simply to close on the DPS to Blasters to realy make it a good choice in a Gang(even in a small Gang). Im not saying that a Blaster ship would be worse in a small Gang, but it also would not be better. As larger the Gang becomes the more uselsess gets a Short Range Ship in the end.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.20 23:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/08/2008 23:59:55 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:32:56 Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:24:04 Originally by: Cpt Branko Amarr. I know I'm cross-training into Amarr. Damn it, i feel like the last person, unwilling to switch. I know. I bought the skillbooks today. Together with a LG slave set After some standings kludging (having a single carebear in a pirate corp = win), I can finally get jumpclones so I can use my halo clone for AF piracy and my LG slave one for Hurricanes and stuff, and, when I finish training for it, Amarr ;)
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:15:00 - [34] Yeah after fighting against it for a month, I bit the bullet also... I'm finally training lazers (pewpew) and am looking forward to joining my new Amarr overlords.
Thepwnshop	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:17:00 - [35] So how do mini ships compare now?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Thepwnshop So how do mini ships compare now? That's kinda the point: they don't. Even the long time Minnie apologists are training other things. -Liang
Thepwnshop	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Thepwnshop So how do mini ships compare now? That's kinda the point: they don't. Even the long time Minnie apologists are training other things. -Liang So pretty much everybody but the start noobs will be in amar ships...
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:34:00 - [38] Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 21/08/2008 00:34:51 I don't know about everybody else, but I can't wait to scream ZOMGLAZERKITTENSPEWPEWPEW!!111 everytime I fire off a radio wave ;)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:49:00 - [39] Laser cats? or Laser cats?
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:58:00 - [40] I was thinking more like Lazer cats

AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 00:59:00 - [41] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 21/08/2008 00:59:17 That's ridiculous. Everyone knows laser cats fire lasers of out their mouths.
Thepwnshop	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:01:00 - [42] Is anybody worried that there will be all these amar ships that can only do EM/Thermal damage?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Thepwnshop Is anybody worried that there will be all these amar ships that can only do EM/Thermal damage? Nope.
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:10:00 - [44] Originally by: AstroPhobic That's ridiculous. Everyone knows laser cats fire lasers of out their mouths. See I always pictured them as kittens with little guns. I guess I was mistaken.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Amandin Adouin Originally by: AstroPhobic That's ridiculous. Everyone knows laser cats fire lasers of out their mouths. See I always pictured them as kittens with little guns. I guess I was mistaken. see my first link
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:35:00 - [46] Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 21/08/2008 01:35:13 I watched all three of them I figured out how to fix the Matari though! They need some Heavy Artillery
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.21 03:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Liang Nuren AFACT, the battleship blaster boats are simply dead (and I was on the test server too). Their effectiveness is drastically cut, and torps have 100% taken over any duty that they may have had before. Of course, with more range too. The web changes really hurt BS blaster ships. -Liang Ed: Of course, it's good to have more than one viewpoint on this... but there's a 20+ page thread in gamedev full of people being like... "Dude, my blaster ship. WTF CCP?" As someone who just finished training med T2 blasters, and pursuing to large T2 blasters, may I say
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 03:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Liang Nuren AFACT, the battleship blaster boats are simply dead (and I was on the test server too). Their effectiveness is drastically cut, and torps have 100% taken over any duty that they may have had before. Of course, with more range too. The web changes really hurt BS blaster ships. -Liang Ed: Of course, it's good to have more than one viewpoint on this... but there's a 20+ page thread in gamedev full of people being like... "Dude, my blaster ship. WTF CCP?" As someone who just finished training med T2 blasters, and pursuing to large T2 blasters, may I say You would think that when CCP's goal was to balance nano's but leave them viable, and yet their patch is so broad that it not only decimated nano hac's but also screwed up blaster boats and required a rebalancing of missiles, you'd THINK that they'd realize their changes were a bit excessive. You'd think.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 03:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Boz Well You would think that when CCP's goal was to balance nano's but leave them viable, and yet their patch is so broad that it not only decimated nano hac's but also screwed up blaster boats and required a rebalancing of missiles, you'd THINK that they'd realize their changes were a bit excessive. You'd think. Blasters weren't the best thing to train pre-patch either...
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.21 04:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Liang Nuren AFACT, the battleship blaster boats are simply dead (and I was on the test server too). Their effectiveness is drastically cut, and torps have 100% taken over any duty that they may have had before. Of course, with more range too. The web changes really hurt BS blaster ships. -Liang Ed: Of course, it's good to have more than one viewpoint on this... but there's a 20+ page thread in gamedev full of people being like... "Dude, my blaster ship. WTF CCP?" As someone who just finished training med T2 blasters, and pursuing to large T2 blasters, may I say You would think that when CCP's goal was to balance nano's but leave them viable, and yet their patch is so broad that it not only decimated nano hac's but also screwed up blaster boats and required a rebalancing of missiles, you'd THINK that they'd realize their changes were a bit excessive. You'd think. Keep in mind that Eve's development and balancing team cannot possibly fathom the far reaching consequences of every change they enact. It clearly never occured to the team that certain rigs might make certain previously impossible play strategies possible. Look at the drake for example - it had an INCREDIBLY sturdy passive tank before rigs - after rigs it took multiple gank battleships to bring down a Drake (and that's why BC's no longer sport the 1000s base shield recharge time). Or the speed fits - they were by and large restricted to certain ships already well suited to going fast, polycarbs made it possible for lots of ships to achieve high enough speeds to consider speed a viable fitting strategy. And just thank your lucky stars the balance team is actually taking the time to test this out thoroughly. Maybe, if you wish hard enough and mail enough letter bombs to CCP the more heinous parts of the nerf will be scaled back or rethought.

Gabriel Virtus	Posted - 2008.08.21 04:45:00 - [51] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 21/08/2008 04:46:29 Roll Caldari, don't be stupid. Ewar - caldari ECM and the broken falcon means their ewar is imbalanced by far. Weapons - With the speed nerf coming, no ships will be able to outrun missiles, while they will still easily be able to outrun gun tracking. With the web nerf, blaster boats will not be able to hit anything under a BS sized ship while missiles apparently can fire and hit anything with there damage barely being affected. Blasters and ACs already cannot hit anything that is already webbed at 90%. This combined with absolutely no effective way to counter the missile weapon system while turrets are easily countered. With the speed nerf, caldari ships will become even more effective. Anyone who says caldari is the weaker of the races in pvp needs to get out onto the eve battlefield. Caldari is already very effective and the speed nerf will make the ridiculous. Torp ravens already own anything else on the battlefield within 30km, and will even more so with the nerf. Go Caldari. Go missiles, and own. Blasterboats are dead, CCP hates Gallente... go Caldari. Flame on -GV
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: johnny zer0 not what i wanted to hear, but it makes sense. thanks. so, my second question, turrets or lasers? i like missiles more than either but they dont seem be as effective in pvp. Again, this depends. As things stood on Sisi when they took things down, there was no point in not flying a missile ship. They were that awesomely broken. -Liang Although i think that its unfair like that.. I must still pray that it stays to make my nighthawk uber.. "plz..plz..plz..plz"
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/08/2008 23:59:55 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:32:56 Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:24:04 Originally by: Cpt Branko Amarr. I know I'm cross-training into Amarr. Damn it, i feel like the last person, unwilling to switch. I know. I bought the skillbooks today. Together with a LG slave set After some standings kludging (having a single carebear in a pirate corp = win), I can finally get jumpclones so I can use my halo clone for AF piracy and my LG slave one for Hurricanes and stuff, and, when I finish training for it, Amarr ;) sigh I really dont understand why ppl do this. When they cld be training their first race to uber levels of sp and be basking in it when their boost comes, playing "catch-up" will only end in tears when they get nerfed again. Although its been a long wait, i think all that caldari spec will pay off soon \o/
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren The web changes really hurt BS blaster ships. -Liang The web change doesn't hurt blaster battleships at all. You can't hurt something that's already dead. The web change is just making people finally realize something that's been true for a long time: outside of very narrow scenarios, lasers are just massively better than projectiles or blasters.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The web change doesn't hurt blaster battleships at all. You can't hurt something that's already dead. The web change is just making people finally realize something that's been true for a long time: outside of very narrow scenarios, lasers are just massively better than projectiles or blasters. Well, yeah. I've been telling people that for quite some time... but you see that nobody listens to me. ;-) Anyway, the complaints are all coming from the removal of those very narrow scenarios. Without webs, they just don't exist anymore. -Liang
Zeknichov Dark Prophecy Inc. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:48:00 - [56] Oh how times have changed. It seems like only yesterday people were talking about how much of a joke Amarr are. Now when the question is asked which race to choose for PvP, the only race I can reply and feel absolutely satisfied with my response is Amarr.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Merin Ryskin The web change doesn't hurt blaster battleships at all. You can't hurt something that's already dead. The web change is just making people finally realize something that's been true for a long time: outside of very narrow scenarios, lasers are just massively better than projectiles or blasters. Well, yeah. I've been telling people that for quite some time... but you see that nobody listens to me. ;-) Anyway, the complaints are all coming from the removal of those very narrow scenarios. Without webs, they just don't exist anymore. -Liang My point is who cares if those scenarios "existed". They might be relevant if you could fly more than one ship at a time, or could instantly train to fly a blaster battleship. But in the "real" world, it's a complete waste of time to train for and fly a ship with such a narrow role when Amarr ships are almost as good in that role but don't suck at everything else. Blaster battleships suck on TQ right now. The only reason anyone ever flies them is the leftover pilots who trained for one when they used to be good. The web nerf doesn't change any of the fundamental reasons why you should never fly a blaster battleship, it just makes it a bit more obvious to the leftovers that it's time to move on.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.21 05:59:00 - [58] Originally by: Derek Sigres Keep in mind that Eve's development and balancing team cannot possibly fathom the far reaching consequences of every change they enact. It clearly never occured to the team that certain rigs might make certain previously impossible play strategies possible. Look at the drake for example - it had an INCREDIBLY sturdy passive tank before rigs - after rigs it took multiple gank battleships to bring down a Drake (and that's why BC's no longer sport the 1000s base shield recharge time). Or the speed fits - they were by and large restricted to certain ships already well suited to going fast, polycarbs made it possible for lots of ships to achieve high enough speeds to consider speed a viable fitting strategy. And just thank your lucky stars the balance team is actually taking the time to test this out thoroughly. Maybe, if you wish hard enough and mail enough letter bombs to CCP the more heinous parts of the nerf will be scaled back or rethought. They can't fathom what their changes will affect? Please. I don't buy that for a second Derek. This isn't rocket science. This isn't a piece of legislature that they're enacting that will have far-reaching consequences. It's a patch to a game. There are a limited number of things changes can affect in a game, and you would HOPE that the developers would at least understand their own game enough to know what a change will impact (then again, HG snakes... ). And there are different types of patches. Small, narrowly tailored ones that just balance a certain aspect, and huge, sledgehammer types that end up screwing up other parts of the game that are completely unrelated. This was the latter. They were trying to 'balance' nano's, obliterated them in the process, and ended up screwing up other parts of the game and having to rebalance those. Don't tell me they can't have seen that coming, because I think everyone saw it coming when we read the patch notes, lol. At the very least, it was easy to see this was a very broad patch, rather than a narrow one. And the drake... something has a strong tank, you add modules that let it fit more tank, and you're telling me it's not foreseeable that the ship will have a STRONGER tank post patch when it fits more tank modules? Do you actually believe that Derek? Lol. Had they thought about it, they could have seen it coming. Regardless, that doesn't justify this patch in my mind. Just because they can't think of all the things their patch will impact doesn't mean the patch is excusable. If you're patching to balance something, and your patch ends up obliterating that thing in the process, as well as screwing up other parts of the game, that should be a clue your changes are too far-reaching and should be scaled back. Even if they didn't think of it during the uber-long 5 hour meeting, they should realize it now, heh, but my money says they go through with this patch, rather than admit they're wrong. It'd be in traditional CCP form if they did just ignore the feedback.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.21 06:26:00 - [59] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Merin Ryskin The web change doesn't hurt blaster battleships at all. You can't hurt something that's already dead. The web change is just making people finally realize something that's been true for a long time: outside of very narrow scenarios, lasers are just massively better than projectiles or blasters. Well, yeah. I've been telling people that for quite some time... but you see that nobody listens to me. ;-) Anyway, the complaints are all coming from the removal of those very narrow scenarios. Without webs, they just don't exist anymore. -Liang My point is who cares if those scenarios "existed". They might be relevant if you could fly more than one ship at a time, or could instantly train to fly a blaster battleship. But in the "real" world, it's a complete waste of time to train for and fly a ship with such a narrow role when Amarr ships are almost as good in that role but don't suck at everything else. Blaster battleships suck on TQ right now. The only reason anyone ever flies them is the leftover pilots who trained for one when they used to be good. The web nerf doesn't change any of the fundamental reasons why you should never fly a blaster battleship, it just makes it a bit more obvious to the leftovers that it's time to move on. I realy think people would not like to see ex Mega Pilotes in Ravens or Gedons, brininging her Gank atitude, Fitting Style and Gameplay with them, this will hurt. But since Blaster style PVP can¦t realy made with other kind of Weapons it is a bit special. Some people like it and stick with it, some not and move on.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:19:00 - [60] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 10:23:54 Originally by: Merin Ryskin My point is who cares if those scenarios "existed". They might be relevant if you could fly more than one ship at a time, or could instantly train to fly a blaster battleship. But in the "real" world, it's a complete waste of time to train for and fly a ship with such a narrow role when Amarr ships are almost as good in that role but don't suck at everything else. Blaster battleships suck on TQ right now. The only reason anyone ever flies them is the leftover pilots who trained for one when they used to be good. The web nerf doesn't change any of the fundamental reasons why you should never fly a blaster battleship, it just makes it a bit more obvious to the leftovers that it's time to move on. Precisely this. Blaster-BS still have a damage advantage over others at point blank ranges, but that advantage is fairly minor, and in the current EvE (after a string of buffs to Amarr/Caldari) the advantage is simply too low to be relevant in anything outside of a ideal 1v1 scenario, while being disadvantaged in anything gang-related or falling outside of ideal circumstances. Originally by: BiggestT sigh I really dont understand why ppl do this. When they cld be training their first race to uber levels of sp and be basking in it when their boost comes, playing "catch-up" will only end in tears when they get nerfed again. With my support skills, it takes about a month and a half to fly a Harbringer nearly perfectly, and maybe 3 months to fly Amarr BS very well, and I always keep my (quite high) Minmatar SP in case we do get some fixes. Cross-training is preety easy, really. The best part is you get to keep your present SP, you know? So you don't care/cry if the new stuff gets a nerf, you still have effective ships to fly and the new ships you've trained will always be useful for something.

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