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Grim Legacy
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Posted - 2008.08.21 16:40:00 -
[1]
I am a new player (1.5 mil skillpoints) within a few days of getting into my first battleship. I have reasonably good support skills, but am not quite techII on all of them yet. If it matters, I have been running level 3 quality 15 for some time without any trouble at all using a drake with ~70k EHP and 222 defense.
Would this be adequate for Level 4s?
~80-90k EHP 87.1% primary damage type, 72.5% secondary damage type 387 defense while cap stable, can bump up to 444 (at the cost of DPS) ~330ish dps
Thanks in advance. |
MuffinsRevenger
EmpiresMod Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 17:10:00 -
[2]
2 LAR, 3 hardners
1 XL, 3 hardners
To be on the safe side, also, player skill |
Grim Legacy
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Posted - 2008.08.21 17:27:00 -
[3]
Thanks, but its not really build I am looking for (my BS will be an armor tanker anyhow). Its more a general idea of the EHP and defense I will need to handle missions with a reasonable margin of error.
Thanks again. |
Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:07:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Elaine Celeste on 21/08/2008 18:09:03 Edited by: Elaine Celeste on 21/08/2008 18:08:04
EHP isn't as important for missions. What's more important is your defense against the specific damage that is done in those missions. So add those damage types to EFT and then see how your tank does against that. But really, every mission's different, and it depends on how you manage aggro. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:09:00 -
[5]
These are just some numbers, don't consider them minimums. Remember that DPS is also important. While there is no set rule, I would suggest that a ship that can permanently tank around 700 DPS and dish out around 600 DPS would make a good all around mission runner. You could go with the more DPS-tanked over shorter period of time philosophy (with higher DPS output as well), but that is not my mission running style. I usually mission with a pair of ships that each have a decent tank and decent DPS.
The Nighthawk one of my characters flies has a Tech II passive tank that handles 1229 DPS against Serpentis (it does 452 DPS). The same character has a Tech II Drake that passive tanks 1089 DPS against Serpentis (it does 319 DPS). These ships tank everything I have encountered so far, but the Drake in particular is a bit underpowered as far as DPS goes.
The same character's cruise CNR has a permarunning Tech II active tank that handles 701 DPS against Serpentis (it does 602 DPS). This ship occasionally has its tank broken if I take full room aggro with it in the wrong mission. With that said, this setup (LSB II, SBA II, 4x Rat Specific Active Hardener IIs, DCU II) is more than adequate for Level 4 mission running with proper tactics.
In the armor tanking field, my permarunning Tech II Dominix tanks 1068 DPS against Serpentis and has never been broken. My Ishtar does pretty well too, tanking 958 DPS.
My Megathron is at the lower end of tanking ability, it handles 548 DPS against Serpentis. It usually kills stuff fast enough that I don't get into any trouble, but I don't usually take full room aggro with it. The same goes for my other character's Typhoon, which tanks around 511 against Serpentis. I consider this very near the minimum for effective mission running (you can do most missions with less, but this will get you through without warping out of the hardest missions as long as you are smart). |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:08:00 -
[6]
You can get by with as little as 400 dps permatanking ability *IF* and only if you field enough gank (800+ dps). And the net doesn't burp.
1k+ dps tank setups are only useful if you plan to AFK during missions a lot.
Choose your targets wisely, run screaming like a little girl if you get full room aggro, don't spend much time in optimal and above all else cut the incoming DPS down ASAP.
For a young character range and the ability to warp out when overwhelmed is key to survival. If you can survive you can eventually finish the mission.
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Elhina Novae
Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:29:00 -
[7]
Used 1 x Large Armor Repair II, 3 x Active Hardener, 3 x Heat Sink on my apocalpyse. Against Sansha/Blood/Angels I didn't have to fear my tank would break because i killed to fast for the DPS to actually start coming in ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Vibora BR
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:37:00 -
[8]
Tank 600+ DPS permanently.
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Grim Legacy
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:48:00 -
[9]
Oh dear...
The only way I can even approach 800+ tank is by severely reducing my DPS. Is there any way for an armor tanker to avoid running 2 armor repairers? ____________________________
Better that I should wrong the world than that the world should wrong me. |
Lt Chonchu
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Posted - 2008.08.21 22:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Grim Legacy Oh dear...
The only way I can even approach 800+ tank is by severely reducing my DPS. Is there any way for an armor tanker to avoid running 2 armor repairers?
You gotta have more cowbell... I mean... skills...
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Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.21 22:25:00 -
[11]
If you've been running a Drake in L3's you already have a lot of the tanking skills needed to fly a Raven.
You might try taking your Drake into some L4's to get an idea of what the DPS is like. It's slow at killing battleships, but can usually withstand the incoming DPS fine.
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.08.21 22:27:00 -
[12]
Dominix
LAR II ( ANLAR is nicer ), 4 x hardners, DCUII, flux coil II( you dont need shield bonuses ). 100MN AB, Omni directional,3 Cap recharger II. ( with cap skills you can probably swap out a CRII and add another Omni Direction ) 3x 425mm, tractor beam, 2 drone control range augmentors.
ANP,2 CCC. ( With full cap skills, and maybe even an imp, you can swap a CCC out for a Drone damage rig )
Implants: Zet4000 ( +5% repair amount. )
Train T2 sentries, and T2 med, and T2 Ogre's
Carry around a couple loads of Faction ammo though you'll probably never use it all per mission.
With good skills I can kill out to 90km, and never have to move. Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.08.21 23:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grim Legacy Oh dear...
The only way I can even approach 800+ tank is by severely reducing my DPS. Is there any way for an armor tanker to avoid running 2 armor repairers?
What ship are you looking to fly? ------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Xap Starfire
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Posted - 2008.08.22 05:18:00 -
[14]
If you use an AB and a long range weapon, the rats won't bother shooting at you.
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Sannah Ur
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Posted - 2008.08.22 09:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xap Starfire If you use an AB and a long range weapon, the rats won't bother shooting at you.
What the?
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DeadRow
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.22 10:28:00 -
[16]
either high damage and 1 LARII 3 Hardeners will do if you don't aggro too much. Or Two LARII 3/4 hardeners and just take your time as you tank everything out there.
Norrin Ellis > What?! Boobs aren't inappropriate! They feed children! For God's sake, think of the children!
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Elhina Novae
Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:35:00 -
[17]
So full of fail everywhere o_O Sure use a dual-rep, enjoy sitting doing a mission for 2 hours because you kill so darn slowly. 1 Large Armor Rep, 2-3 Active Hardeners, and 3 x Damage modifiers will do level 4 missions, period, no matter what people say, my skills is far from perfect and I did it for months.
The only ship I would tell you too dual-rep would be a Dominix with T2 Heavies and afk mission, except for that... just stupid. ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Atlas Elestra
Titan Mining LLC
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:48:00 -
[18]
1.5mil SP and Running a Drake thru 3s. That's impressive to me. Just qualified or soon for a Raven. Impressive I qualified for a Raven at around 3.8mil SP. But I put a lot into Science for Rnd and some in Manufacturing... Anyway I have a feeling your well short of the proper fitting skills for a Raven but I might be wrong. Here's where this is coming from:
A Drake is most often a Passive Shield tank while the Raven is an Active Shield tank. While both do use shields and the general shield skills help both fits. I've found the support fittings for an Active fit fall under different skills than a Passive fit.
That being said just Today I started running Level 4s. in my Drake. At the moment I have just about all Tech II in my low and mids, I'm finishing up Tactical Shield Manipulation IV in order to switch my Invulnerability I to a II. Plus I support that by having all 4 Resist skills trained to 2 and I'll bump them up to 4 after I get my Heavy missles to V.
Fit. High 7x Heavy Missle Launcher (Best availible via loot) 1x Prototye Cloak I Mid 1x Invulnerability I 2x Large Shield Extender II 2x Shield Recharger II 1x Y-S8 Hydrocarbon AB I low 2x Ballisctic Control System II 2x Power Relay II drones 2x Hammerhead I 1x hobgoblin I Ammo: Caldari Navy Widowmakers, Scourge, and Thunderbolts.
It might behoove me to switch to 5 hobgoblins, but I have many more hammerheads on hand so I use those...
I'm sure a properly fit Raven would slice thru faster, but I like saving the ISK. The larger fittings cost more plus the Raven itself is about 85 mil vs. a 34 mil Drake. Plus I haven't run/tried to run any of the harder missions in my drake. I forget the name of the last mission I ran but it had 2 areas. The first had 28 ships, 6 were Battle ships. The second had 40 ships, 9 battleships. Both areas had everything there at once no spawns but everything was not all together. As long as you spread it out the frigs ended up engaging first, then the crusiers and the Battle ships sort of at the same time. The frigs hit first cause they're just so much fater.
Well I could go on, but there is my 2 ISK. ôSalvage is as much an art as building the ship itself. We take rubble and make rigs, now that takes Talent.ö |
Qel Hoth
Infusion.
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Posted - 2008.08.22 12:04:00 -
[19]
Dual LARs doesnt necessarily mean no gank.
I run an apoc when I mission, and fit it like:
8x Megapulse II 2x cap recharger II, 2x eutectic cap 2x LAR II, 2x Heatsink II, 3x specific hards 3x CCC
5 hammer IIs 5 hobgob IIs
Fitting is very tight though, <1cpu and <1000 pg to spare, with maxed fittings except for AWU 4.
This will permarun with controlled bursts 5, Energy systems ops 5, and Energy management 5, and BS 5. Might permarun with ESO 4.
The second lar isnt needed unless I do something stupid and pull full aggro or forget to refit hardner, but I keep it around just in case. Also, this setup will run every mission come across with the exception of EA 5/5, because RF Darkana's have stupid resists.
This also works with 2x EANM II + DCU II, or 3x EANM II, if you want an omnitank or dont care to look what you're fighting.
90% of the time i just turn the 1st rep on when i get in-system since it and the guns do permarun at about 65% cap.
Hits reliably to 30km with AN MF, 70km with scorch.
Clears most missions in about 30 minutes or less, WC takes about 1 hour 15 minutes. ----- The above does not represent the opinions of my corp or alliance. |
Grim Legacy
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Posted - 2008.08.22 14:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Atlas Elestra 1.5mil SP and Running a Drake thru 3s. That's impressive to me.
Thanks. I have been running L3s for a long time (I have like 9.6 standing with my L3 Q19 agent). At first it was kind of hard, but its gotten a lot easier over time. Here is my current build:
P.S. Note that the PDS was because I had to use it at the time for a fit. Now I have better skills, but have been too lazy to replace it.
Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen If you've been running a Drake in L3's you already have a lot of the tanking skills needed to fly a Raven.
I considered the Raven for a long time, but finally rejected it. My long term goal is fleet PvP, and missiles just don't seem good for PvP. Since I don't want to waste 10+ days training missile skills only for PvE, I settled on hybrid turrets as a way to both limp through PvE and build a foundation for future PvP. Instead, I've tried to build up a good foundation of learning skills and support skills (tech II on almost all fitting) and invested nothing into battlecruiser or any weapon.
I am a noob tho, and feel free to advise me. I could use the tips.
Originally by: FT Diomedes What ship are you looking to fly?
I am still open to suggestions, but I am primarily considering the Megathron, Hyperion, or possibly Rokh. I am currently training Gallente Cruiser in anticipation of using a Mega.
When I was told yesterday I needed a minimum of 600-800 tank, I planned out this. The assault launcher is to help make up for my relatively suck tracking and drone damage vs frigates.
____________________________
Better that I should wrong the world than that the world should wrong me. |
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Mahke
Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Clair Bear You can get by with as little as 400 dps permatanking ability *IF* and only if you field enough gank (800+ dps). And the net doesn't burp.
1k+ dps tank setups are only useful if you plan to AFK during missions a lot.
Choose your targets wisely, run screaming like a little girl if you get full room aggro, don't spend much time in optimal and above all else cut the incoming DPS down ASAP.
For a young character range and the ability to warp out when overwhelmed is key to survival. If you can survive you can eventually finish the mission.
Or even a little less. When I missioned I worked with around 350 and did fine. As long as you manage agro and kill the really nast spawns fast you'll be fine. This is how to do missions fastest while still very safe -- tank by killing stuff before it breaks your tank, use a permatank so theres no risk of being dropped from the server without your tank on (you'll warp away and be fine).
This all assumes you're not afk and not an idiot, of course. If you are, you need a tank capable of taking full agro.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:20:00 -
[22]
Your damage on that Megathron is pretty weak. It's going to take a long time to complete most missions using that setup. You definitely need more SP to fly it well - but you can certainly use that setup effectively for the time being. With that said, I hate cap boosters on PvE setups - I would go for more Cap Recharger IIs and cap rigs. ------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Manu Hermanus
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.23 04:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Qel Hoth Dual LARs doesnt necessarily mean no gank.
I run an apoc when I mission, and fit it like:
8x Megapulse II 2x cap recharger II, 2x eutectic cap 2x LAR II, 2x Heatsink II, 3x specific hards 3x CCC
5 hammer IIs 5 hobgob IIs
Fitting is very tight though, <1cpu and <1000 pg to spare, with maxed fittings except for AWU 4.
This will permarun with controlled bursts 5, Energy systems ops 5, and Energy management 5, and BS 5. Might permarun with ESO 4.
The second lar isnt needed unless I do something stupid and pull full aggro or forget to refit hardner, but I keep it around just in case. Also, this setup will run every mission come across with the exception of EA 5/5, because RF Darkana's have stupid resists.
This also works with 2x EANM II + DCU II, or 3x EANM II, if you want an omnitank or dont care to look what you're fighting.
90% of the time i just turn the 1st rep on when i get in-system since it and the guns do permarun at about 65% cap.
Hits reliably to 30km with AN MF, 70km with scorch.
Clears most missions in about 30 minutes or less, WC takes about 1 hour 15 minutes.
so why not use 3 heatsinks and 1 lar
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Manu Hermanus
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.23 04:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Atlas Elestra 1.5mil SP and Running a Drake thru 3s. That's impressive to me. Just qualified or soon for a Raven. Impressive I qualified for a Raven at around 3.8mil SP. But I put a lot into Science for Rnd and some in Manufacturing... Anyway I have a feeling your well short of the proper fitting skills for a Raven but I might be wrong. Here's where this is coming from:
A Drake is most often a Passive Shield tank while the Raven is an Active Shield tank. While both do use shields and the general shield skills help both fits. I've found the support fittings for an Active fit fall under different skills than a Passive fit.
That being said just Today I started running Level 4s. in my Drake. At the moment I have just about all Tech II in my low and mids, I'm finishing up Tactical Shield Manipulation IV in order to switch my Invulnerability I to a II. Plus I support that by having all 4 Resist skills trained to 2 and I'll bump them up to 4 after I get my Heavy missles to V.
Fit. High 7x Heavy Missle Launcher (Best availible via loot) 1x Prototye Cloak I Mid 1x Invulnerability I 2x Large Shield Extender II 2x Shield Recharger II 1x Y-S8 Hydrocarbon AB I low 2x Ballisctic Control System II 2x Power Relay II drones 2x Hammerhead I 1x hobgoblin I Ammo: Caldari Navy Widowmakers, Scourge, and Thunderbolts.
It might behoove me to switch to 5 hobgoblins, but I have many more hammerheads on hand so I use those...
I'm sure a properly fit Raven would slice thru faster, but I like saving the ISK. The larger fittings cost more plus the Raven itself is about 85 mil vs. a 34 mil Drake. Plus I haven't run/tried to run any of the harder missions in my drake. I forget the name of the last mission I ran but it had 2 areas. The first had 28 ships, 6 were Battle ships. The second had 40 ships, 9 battleships. Both areas had everything there at once no spawns but everything was not all together. As long as you spread it out the frigs ended up engaging first, then the crusiers and the Battle ships sort of at the same time. The frigs hit first cause they're just so much fater.
Well I could go on, but there is my 2 ISK.
training resist skills does nothing for an invuln, unless its offline, and if your invlun is offline you have bigger problems.
although you probably don't need the cloak for level 4s, unless you are in 0.0 or bumble**** middle of nowhere lowsec
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Manu Hermanus
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.23 04:54:00 -
[25]
to the op, my raven fit currently tanks 350-450 depending on damage type. puts out 508, cn cruise launchers, t1 missiles, and t2 hobgobs. runs nicely with a paladin.
for some missions have an alternate 550-650 tank
as for ehp not a ****ing clue
oh and work on your dps skills next, will speed stuff up quite a bit.
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Lunaticorc
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.23 11:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Elhina Novae So full of fail everywhere o_O Sure use a dual-rep, enjoy sitting doing a mission for 2 hours because you kill so darn slowly. 1 Large Armor Rep, 2-3 Active Hardeners, and 3 x Damage modifiers will do level 4 missions, period, no matter what people say, my skills is far from perfect and I did it for months.
The only ship I would tell you too dual-rep would be a Dominix with T2 Heavies and afk mission, except for that... just stupid.
This has been my experience also. I would still recommend someone just starting L4 missions to overtank for their first missions and then gradually start reducing it till they get to the aforemention 1xLAR2 + 2-3 hardeners setup. Be sure to read mission info when running that tank though. Hitting too many triggers at the wrong time will get you killed for sure. L4 missions have warp scramblers.
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Qel Hoth
Infusion. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:31:00 -
[27]
2 LAR are nice when you forget to put the right hardners on, draw full aggro and/or your drones are pathetically stupid and kill all the triggers.
I swear, whoever i buy my drones from is using damaged AI parts to save isk...
I should find a way to shoehorn a TC II in there though, even more range would be nice. ----- The above does not represent the opinions of my corp or alliance. |
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