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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:37:00 -
[991]
I made it into the top 10? With 9 previous posts. 
Kelli you have managed 7 yourself with no actual contribution to the thread. Indeed your posts have been made up of such gems as:
 Originally by: Kelli Flay
You truly are a clueless noob.
Some would argue that you need a life.
It is just a small grp of anti-carebear trolls whining because Suicide ganking was nerfed.
What i am saying is a no lifer who does nothing but post on this forum
You failed.
one of the clowns on the top ten posters
Your a prime example of why the lack of moderation is having a huge negative impact on this community.
...and now I'm feeding the troll so feel free to continue without any further comment from me.
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Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:41:00 -
[992]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
So far I've only seen 1 argument.. because its not competative profession like the rest of eve. I can agree with that.
How about the fact that it nullifies the point of even being in lowsec/0.0? The official EVE website says that the richest people in any given profession inhabit the lower sec statuses, low sec status is CLEARLY supposed to be a place where people compete over limited resources that vastly outstrip hisec.
That's why DED complexes in lowsec/0.0 are better, that's why the ores in 0.0 are better.
Yeah the mods from running an plex in 0.0 split with 5-10 of your corp mates in 0.0 net over 1 bil isk. Most definitly more than you get running lvl 4 missions. Less time for that matter.
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Kelli Flay
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:43:00 -
[993]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
...and now I'm feeding the troll so feel free to continue without any further comment from me.
Your unbiased insight will be missed. 
"The National Weather Bureau is forecasting a thunderstorm of failure." |
Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:55:00 -
[994]
Originally by: Ruze
Personally, I've spent the last several months in hisec, doing nothing but missions. Before that, I had taken an involuntary leave from the game for over a year. So when I came back, I obviously noticed some differences. New ships, new skills, new things to learn.
But one of the huge differences I noticed was in my first adventure back into losec. 'Way back when', I used to live with my previous corporation in losec. It was probably the best time I had in EvE (we later moved into nulsec, and I didn't like it so much ... no missions  ).
And yet, losec was empty. I figure, 'things change', but I wondered why they changed, and started reading up on the forums, asking around, yadda, yadda.
I'd also noticed that the profit gained from me doing hisec missions was much higher. And that there were a BUNCH of players in hisec. And being the type of person I am, I asked around. Local chat, private convos, that sort of thing.
Now, is there a problem? For me, it's personal (i.e. can be fixed on my side). I don't like nulsec, and I find hisec boring and overcrowded. Players post about lag. Players complain about market. Players complain about all kinds of stuff, some legit, and some bullsh*t, by my opinion.
I listed a lot of the complaints up above, including the old feeling of 'natural progression' from hisec to nulsec. And the lag that grows exponentially with each new player in a system. And the market imbalance from grinding missions and selling LP items and loot. And the mineral imbalance of losec over veldspar, or reprocessed 'junk' loot. And the lack of significant setbacks with each ship loss, further causing the stagnant nature of nulsec and boosting losec piracy.
No one suggestion wins them all, and many cause more problems. Like moving all 'insert level here' missions to losec, etc, etc. And many support specific ones for personal agendas, like wanting LP to be rewarded only in losec, inflating the cost of faction items again.
But at least suggestions and reasonings have been proposed. It's just cutting through all the forum PvP here, like a particular poster above participates in.
Thats a discussion I can go with.. 0.0 depending on where your at can be a bit rough.. nano gangs have caused a great many players to head to hi sec. Then theres the whole invention drive.. everyone was after decryptors in hi sec. I've been in a few alliances where there are times you dont go out.. the other 80 players are logged in but afk at a station.. players during that time are driven to hi sec for isk. Now with invention its better to have your own/corp pos and run it in 0.0 Eve is continuing to grow and the fun times are gone.. its too overcrowded. The 0.0 belt you used to go and rat all by yourself or w a corp mate or 2.. hard to find unless your on at the right time. Long gone are the 1 vs 1/small gang fights while traveling in 0.0 :( the small gang warfare only exist when eu go to sleep and its usually nanos so its usally a waste of time. If thats what your missing from when you left your not alone. Moving or altering lvl 4 missions wont change 0.0.. it'll just be 1 more thing players dont do.
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Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:59:00 -
[995]
If your after missions in low sec then do lvl 5.. they are there. Why change lvl4 missions when there are better missions already where you want them?
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THEGREAT LOBO
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.31 21:59:00 -
[996]
Originally by: Kelli Flay
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
...and now I'm feeding the troll so feel free to continue without any further comment from me.
Your unbiased insight will be missed.
I thought it was a well known fact to just ignore anything that kelli says. Nothing but a clueless carebear troll.
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.08.31 22:30:00 -
[997]
Cleaned.
Please remember to stay on topic and not let this descend into personal attacks.
Mitnal
Community Representative
CCP Games, EVE Online
Email / Netfang |
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.31 23:26:00 -
[998]
Quote:
Yeah the mods from running an plex in 0.0 split with 5-10 of your corp mates in 0.0 net over 1 bil isk. Most definitly more than you get running lvl 4 missions. Less time for that matter.
That's assuming you find the right plex AND get lucky. You're assuming that the explorer is getting lucky. He could very well find precisely ****.
Either way, that's exploration. I'm not arguing about exploration. Exploration is, in my opinion, a model as to what all professions should be like risk/reward wise. I'd say ISK rewards in lowsec might need slight increasing relative to 0.0, but that's negligible. By and large, the scaling rewards over the sec statuses for exploration is perfect.
That's what I want to see for missions and mining. Hisec level 4 pay should be similar in pay to hisec exploration pay.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.31 23:41:00 -
[999]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
That's what I want to see for missions and mining. Hisec level 4 pay should be similar in pay to hisec exploration pay.
Then you want everything but level 1 missions removed from High Sec, got it....
HighSec exploration isn't worth teh cost of probes anymore.
-------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.31 23:43:00 -
[1000]
Quote:
Then you want everything but level 1 missions removed from High Sec, got it....
HighSec exploration isn't worth teh cost of probes anymore.
Really. That's why hisec radar sites are under constant competition and why you can get deadspace/faction loot worth tens of millions sitting in hisec? I did just fine exploring in hisec.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.31 23:45:00 -
[1001]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Then you want everything but level 1 missions removed from High Sec, got it....
HighSec exploration isn't worth teh cost of probes anymore.
Really. That's why hisec radar sites are under constant competition and why you can get deadspace/faction loot worth tens of millions sitting in hisec? I did just fine exploring in hisec.
Then if they are so lucrative, so easy and so available, why not leave level 4s?
Make up your mind.
-------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.31 23:48:00 -
[1002]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 31/08/2008 23:49:00
Quote:
Then if they are so lucrative, so easy and so available, why not leave level 4s?
Make up your mind.
You missed the point entirely. They are enough to get by, but they don't even begin to touch level 4s. That's the point. Hisec missioning should pay roughly as much as hisec exploration...maybe a bit more given the SP/ships needed, but not substantially.
Oh, and since I still haven't gotten a response
Quote:
I have some straight up questions for you all that I have NOT seen answered yet despite me posting them over and over and over.
-Should be bring Crokite/Bistot and 10/10 DED plexes to hisec? Why or why not?
-If the "Casual players" who just log on to do some missions every once in awhile are the people you've concerned about; how does a nerf hurt them? How does less ISK lessen the game experience for someone who just logs on to casually do missions?
I am going to copy/paste the above until I get a ****ing response, because I'm tired of these questions being ignored.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:04:00 -
[1003]
Originally by: Exlegion
Quote:
Out of 223 posters:
37 Players agree with the OP.
153 Players disagree.
33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed.
The bulk of posts came from:
Agree with OP (# of posts)
Maximillian Bayonette (89)
Ruze (84)
Gamesguy (62)
DigitalCommunist (36)
Malcanis (34)
Ki An (29)
Kahega Amielden (15)
Le Skunk (12)
Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11)
Tippia (11)
That's 10 players with 383 posts.
^^ Reason I posted, especially the bit above, is to show that in reality we're dealing with about 5 or 6 very vocal players passionately looking to change the game to conform to what they believe is balance. And there's about 2 to 3 (myself included  ) a little less vocal trying to keep the status quo. My point is this thread is mostly noise and little signal. Interesting, no? :)
Game design isn't a democracy.
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:22:00 -
[1004]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.
You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ashlee Darksky
Minmatar
Forum Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:32:00 -
[1005]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.
You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.
He's right! But sadly the old saying applies "the squeeky cog gets the oil" . If you think you can get rich doing L4's then do them to fund a capital, then when it pops, do them again to fund it - you'll soon see that it isn't true!
---
> I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing
> Bring me the heads of 10 carebears, 5 bottles of BBQ sauce, firewood and a box of matches! |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:36:00 -
[1006]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.
You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.
Do you honestly feel that the more we post for, or you post against, it'll have an effect on what CCP does?
While I do enjoy an argument now and again, I'm under no illusions that anything said after the op will have MAJOR impact. If anything, I do hope that some of the nay and yay posts are read by the developers, simply so that if they DO consider the whole issue to be a problem, they won't take the drastic measures some post.
Meanwhile, I think far too many have it in their heads that if they can rack up posts, using alts or telling their buddies, they can somehow keep a change from happening. CCP ain't released no information for or against this.
But while you have it in your head that it's a vocal minority, that's fine. If it helps you convince yourself that CCP wouldn't listen to something that many believe has a profound effect on gameplay, and could be done better ... fine.
Personally, I would be damn disappointed if CCP didn't at least take a glance at something that only a single player complains about.
I don't put much stock in minorities or majorities. That's one of the reasons I'm glad the country I live in is a Republic, and not a Democracy. The 'majority' opinion can often leave issues out that severely effect the few, just because it would hamper the many or provide a slight inconvenience.
CCP probably won't change sh*t, and believes that missions are working as intended. But let's not fool ourselves that anything we say in these or any other posts has a significant impact. Poll the crowd all you will, but the day that CCP goes from being a high-quality product for a niche playerbase, to being a mainstream product for the lowest common denominator, is the day you can have all of EvE to yourself.
Quote:
If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ...
Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:40:00 -
[1007]
Quote:
CCP probably won't change sh*t, and believes that missions are working as intended. But let's not fool ourselves that anything we say in these or any other posts has a significant impact. Poll the crowd all you will, but the day that CCP goes from being a high-quality product for a niche playerbase, to being a mainstream product for the lowest common denominator, is the day you can have all of EvE to yourself.
We'll see in a bit. CSM Ank compiled a big list of issues/concerns with missions (Which ranges from them being boring/uninteresting to them being too lucrative in hisec). The issue got raised and I believe this means that they're going to bring up the issue with CCP and they're going to address it.
So basically we'll see CCP's stance on it at some point.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.01 01:34:00 -
[1008]
Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.
You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.
Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?
Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.
Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.
Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).
You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).
In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.01 01:47:00 -
[1009]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.
You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.
Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?
Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.
Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.
Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).
You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).
In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.
This is from two of my posts, a little further down. Of course, this is only the recent time I listed some of the problems argued against. About two pages before, I include several arguments against hisec missions, as well as arguments against changes to hisec missions, as well as proposed changes.
And yes, at the moment, I do a whole lot of missions. As you have pointed out so succinctly, much of my own income would indeed be nerfed. As it stands, I personally feel it's necessary and the right thing to do, but I think the exact means needs a real combover.
So, not bleating and whining, as I ain't a sheep. Thanks for the insult, though. I'm sure it made you feel slightly better, somehow. Anything I can do to help 
Originally by: Ruze
I listed a lot of the complaints up above, including the old feeling of 'natural progression' from hisec to nulsec. And the lag that grows exponentially with each new player in a system. And the market imbalance from grinding missions and selling LP items and loot. And the mineral imbalance of losec over veldspar, or reprocessed 'junk' loot. And the lack of significant setbacks with each ship loss, further causing the stagnant nature of nulsec and boosting losec piracy.
No one suggestion wins them all, and many cause more problems. Like moving all 'insert level here' missions to losec, etc, etc. And many support specific ones for personal agendas, like wanting LP to be rewarded only in losec, inflating the cost of faction items again.
But at least suggestions and reasonings have been proposed. It's just cutting through all the forum PvP here, like a particular poster above participates in.
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Misanth
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.09.01 02:13:00 -
[1010]
It's quite pathetic to complain about missionrunning in high-sec tbh.
Myself being combat oriented and someone who never really focused on industrial aspects, nor NPCing, I still find myself and/or friends making alot more money ratting in 0.0 or - which is quite common tbh - run multiple accounts gangratting in 0.0, stripping systems. Can on top of my head name a bunch of semi-casual players that easily pulls out a bil a week just mining, safely, in one 'home system' in 0.0. Then we're not even touching the plexfarmers that can make multibillions a day, if they're organized and experienced enough.
Pulling 1bil weekly in highsec lv4 is roughly what I do right now, partly because of 0.0 lagfests and partly because I'm in a heavy training period and need a break from dull stuff. Partly because I recently left 0.0.
Point being; lv4 isk-making is a **** in the ocean compared to plexing and multi-account mining. Considering the potential of buying GTC's with isk you can basicly support the isk for all those 3-5 accounts by just some days mining. That'll take more than a day running lv4's.
If you need to whine about something, you should rather complain about how lousy the lowsec payoff for lv4's are. They need an incentitive if anything.
Empire mining would probably be on par with lv4 missionrunning if it wasn't for macromining, so in that sense, and considering new ships (Hulk), skills, experience etc.. the Empire-iskmaking is pretty much setting a decent standard for what the minimum income is. The maximum is set by the 0.0 inhibitants. If they fail to deliver, it's their own fault. It's currently low sec that needs some overhaul. |
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Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.01 02:28:00 -
[1011]
Edited by: Strom Kryos on 01/09/2008 02:33:35
While I dont agree with everything you have to say, I respect that your backing it up with more than a non substancial reasons, I just wanted to point out a few things.
Especially in the longer threads.. there will always be those without a head on their shoulders. I know it's hard when they call you out like a teenager not to defend yourself, I generally ignore them or at most keep the replies short, ask them to reread the post or provide something to the conversation to get their reasoning for even posting in the first place.
I realize things are different than they were before and low sec is going to go under a bigger change when ccp rolls out the low sec type monarch or some such and some items touched in this Dev Blog
But one thing that will never change is the time wasted replying to those who cant communicate in a mature fashion. I'm sure the devs are more likly to dismiss posts like that also. Repling to those posts, your not going to get them to accept or respect your view and your just going to get more frustrated.
That was for Ruze .. I hate to see someone bother with extra frustration. Seen some rather childish stuff in this thread but he's kept pointing out his thoughts instead of calling names back.. for the most part:p |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.01 02:39:00 -
[1012]
Originally by: Strom Kryos
Edited by: Strom Kryos on 01/09/2008 02:33:35
While I dont agree with everything you have to say, I respect that your backing it up with more than a non substancial reasons, I just wanted to point out a few things.
Especially in the longer threads.. there will always be those without a head on their shoulders. I know it's hard when they call you out like a teenager not to defend yourself, I generally ignore them or at most keep the replies short, ask them to reread the post or provide something to the conversation to get their reasoning for even posting in the first place.
I realize things are different than they were before and low sec is going to go under a bigger change when ccp rolls out the low sec type monarch or some such and some items touched in this Dev Blog
But one thing that will never change is the time wasted replying to those who cant communicate in a mature fashion. I'm sure the devs are more likly to dismiss posts like that also. Repling to those posts, your not going to get them to accept or respect your view and your just going to get more frustrated.
That was for Ruze .. I hate to see someone bother with extra frustration. Seen some rather childish stuff in this thread but he's kept pointing out his thoughts instead of calling names back.. for the most part:p
I can appreciate that, and agree with your sentiments about useless replies. In my own defense, I've more than once noticed someone reply in bad temper, a little insulting or condescending, and then a few posts later, you realize that you both agree in general terms, and it's the specifics you don't meet on.
I do try to give a little doubt that a person is just having a bad day or reading the wrong posts. Cause let's be honest, the insults fly both ways. It ain't hard to alienate another with a wrong word or turn of phrase ... |
Trathen
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.09.01 03:42:00 -
[1013]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.
Huh? Even a single level 3 mission will fund a handful of rifters. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 03:49:00 -
[1014]
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.
Huh? Even a single level 3 mission will fund a handful of rifters.
I'm by no means a rich man, and sometimes I just prefer level 3's over 4's, but I can easily afford a weeks worth of FW in T1 frigates and tackler gear.
10 mil a week, and while sometimes I run out of that allowance a bit early ... bad luck and all considering, cause it sure as heck ain't the fact that I'm a crappy frig pilot  ... it's still only an hour of level 3's. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.09.01 04:08:00 -
[1015]
It's not the frigates; it's the time spent. We miserly carebears are all about the wallet size. When we're being blown up in our useless t1 fit t1 frigs we're not churning out the ISKies.
Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.
Although a solo Malediction DID try and tackle me within sentry gun range. Watching him subsequently fail to tank sentries made me laugh so hard I kept missing the cloak button. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.01 04:12:00 -
[1016]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 01/09/2008 04:12:13
Quote:
Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.
Want to take a guess where all those pilots got the ISK for those expensive pwnboats?
Hint: it wasn't from hisec mining or exploration. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.01 04:24:00 -
[1017]
Originally by: Clair Bear
It's not the frigates; it's the time spent. We miserly carebears are all about the wallet size. When we're being blown up in our useless t1 fit t1 frigs we're not churning out the ISKies.
Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.
Although a solo Malediction DID try and tackle me within sentry gun range. Watching him subsequently fail to tank sentries made me laugh so hard I kept missing the cloak button.
It all is subject to what you consider 'fun', of course. While I do enjoy doing missions, I also enjoy a good fight against like or better opponents. And while my death ratio for that alt is far higher than my wins, it's not something that bothers me.
I have seen my share of T2 ships flying, but if you have a good group, you either have some of your own, or you outnumber them, or you don't engage at all. Not every group is 'good', no doubt, but sometimes it's as much about the confidence of the individuals as the record. As I ain't PvPing for some silly killboard statistic, I'm not too awfully bothered by a setback.
I don't know about the whole 'miserly' thing. I do believe that a lot of players who have never left hisec are far LESS likely to than a new player, simply because you get into a rut where you can use the biggest possible ship with the best fittings, and you really can't afford that loss.
Personally, I see this as one of the major flaws of hisec. Players convince themselves, or are convinced by hisec hippies who have never left the noob corps, that 'PvP is evil' and losec is full of 'wicked griefers who call themselves pirates'. Oh, and let's not forget the myth that 'I'm new, so I can't compete yet!'
A T1 ship can kill you as easily as a T2. Technically, sure, two equally skilled and able pilots would be unmatched against one another, with T2 coming out on top. But as long as you keep the math that 'so many sp is needed' or 'so much DPS' ... that's all just a load of bullsh*t, and an excuse.
Unlike many other MMO's, EvE PvP (be it market combat or ship-to-ship), is as much or moreso about the ability of the PLAYER, as it is about the skill points and equipment of the CHARACTER.
A confident player who knows his ship can kick *ss in a destroyer, for heaven's sake. He can't win every match, but he's smart enough to engage when he can, and to use whatever tactics and he knows his role in a gang.
Don't make yourself a fool, or cower within those high walls, without ever trying the rest of the world out for a try. Be you an EFT Warrior or a Killboard Cowboy, you are just building up a lot of nonesense, without any TRUE grasp of the situation.
Play a ship you like, fly a ship you can afford, and try and think beyond the numbers. You might be surprised how many T2 ships you can get your name on the killmails for in that T1 frigate.
By no means is this directed directly at Clair Bear, by the way. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.09.01 05:09:00 -
[1018]
Originally by: Ruze
Personally, I see this as one of the major flaws of hisec. Players convince themselves, or are convinced by hisec hippies who have never left the noob corps, that 'PvP is evil' and losec is full of 'wicked griefers who call themselves pirates'. Oh, and let's not forget the myth that 'I'm new, so I can't compete yet!'
It could be that, I'm not a mind reader. Or it could be a simple calculus of:
1. The only damage you can do to another player is ISK
2. Therefore, ISK is the score of Eve
3. I make X isk in highsec with a nicely fit ship
4. I make 2/3 X isk in lowsec with a disposable crap ship, minus losses to constant docking and failed missions
(note: the above does not represent my view on the subject)
I don't know of a single one of those fear paralyzed carebears you speak of. But I do know many who subscribe to the above theory. All you have to do is see the hundreds PER HOUR dying in Rancer on a good day to realize it's not a fear that keeps newbies out of lowsec.
Quote:
A T1 ship can kill you as easily as a T2. Technically, sure, two equally skilled and able pilots would be unmatched against one another, with T2 coming out on top. But as long as you keep the math that 'so many sp is needed' or 'so much DPS' ... that's all just a load of bullsh*t, and an excuse.
Frigates at 10 paces is not how this works. You should realize how t2 ships which are months out of reach for new or industry players can drastically tip the scales of an encounter. DPS a small part of it -- throw anything less than a rat horde number of newbies at a decently organized nanorecon gang and all you'll get is a bunch of dead newbies. I'd take 5 to 1 odds in an encounter like that. Some of the better PvP corps have taken on 10 to 1 odds to come away with no losses -- not every FC is psychic enough to know what's about to decloak and jam them a new one.
Quote:
A confident player who knows his ship can kick *ss in a destroyer, for heaven's sake. He can't win every match, but he's smart enough to engage when he can, and to use whatever tactics and he knows his role in a gang.
Yes, Agony PvP class roams nullsec in a a frigate & destroyer blob (with covops scouts and a dictor) and bags some pretty impressive stragglers. But that's not a strategic victory, that's just... counterstrike in space.
We had a 14km/sec inty in our system a few weeks back piloted by a very experienced pilot. I don't care how many newbies in t1 frigates you throw at that, all he's gonna do is laugh at them and demonstrate proper spiraling technique and use of in-system bookmarks.
Quote:
Play a ship you like, fly a ship you can afford, and try and think beyond the numbers. You might be surprised how many T2 ships you can get your name on the killmails for in that T1 frigate.
Sure, because your experienced high SP teammates are flying a proper t2&faction fit counter. They're doing the work, you're just adding a tiny bit of DPS.
I mean, hell, I can bust out nearly 200 dps out of a freaking velator. If all I flew was that sooner or later I'd be bound to get on a KM...
I'm tired of hearing the "SP doesn't matter" mantra. If that were true we'd all be flying 800k SP combat alts. You need to be at least this ____ tall to properly combat fit. At that point it becomes primarily a numbers game. 5 falcons beat 2 falcons. 58 dreads + 100 support beat 3 dreads + 10 support. And so on.
Disclaimer: I've had a FW alt. At times I had so much fun I forgot about my carcass in a 0.0 belt. I have since become bored of it. |
Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.09.01 05:59:00 -
[1019]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Exlegion
Quote:
Out of 223 posters:
37 Players agree with the OP.
153 Players disagree.
33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed.
The bulk of posts came from:
Agree with OP (# of posts)
Maximillian Bayonette (89)
Ruze (84)
Gamesguy (62)
DigitalCommunist (36)
Malcanis (34)
Ki An (29)
Kahega Amielden (15)
Le Skunk (12)
Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11)
Tippia (11)
That's 10 players with 383 posts.
^^ Reason I posted, especially the bit above, is to show that in reality we're dealing with about 5 or 6 very vocal players passionately looking to change the game to conform to what they believe is balance. And there's about 2 to 3 (myself included ) a little less vocal trying to keep the status quo. My point is this thread is mostly noise and little signal. Interesting, no? :)
Game design isn't a democracy.
Pretty good overview. And that is why CCP always looks at the numbers and data themselves before anything is done. Anybody can use his 4 accounts and 12 characters on them to play mindgames with himself to make 'a point', but at the end of day there will be some devs going over hard data and deciding if the effect is in line with game design and either poke it a bit or not.
What crying real loud can do is making a dev 'look at it' to see if there is actually problem or not. |
Rothrin
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 06:36:00 -
[1020]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.
You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.
Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?
Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.
Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.
Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).
You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).
In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.
I like th cut of your jib, dont like the idea about agents changing q though, and as a level 4 mission runner and i dont loot friggs or cruisers, but i still get a lot of refine just from the ammo npc battleships drop.
Other then that.. i hope you stand for the mission runner csm in the next election. |
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