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Why we need a SIGNIFICANT nerf on lvl4s in hisec.

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Author	Topic
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:35:00 - [1081] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 02/09/2008 14:20:06 Ruze, Take a look at this thread alone. If you don't believe the stats I posted, count them yourself. See how many players agree with you and how many don't. Here are my stats again: Quote: Some fun facts about this thread: There are 34 pages to this thread. 1002 posts plus the OP! Out of 223 posters: 37 Players agree with the OP. 153 Players disagree. 33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed. The bulk of posts came from: Agree with OP (# of posts) Maximillian Bayonette (89) Ruze (84) Gamesguy (62) DigitalCommunist (36) Malcanis (34) Ki An (29) Kahega Amielden (15) Le Skunk (12) Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11) Tippia (11) That's 10 players with 383 posts. The other 27 "Yay!" players had 9 posts or less in this thread. Disagree with OP (# of posts) Ogul (28) Sheriff Jones (23) Exlegion (20) Galvatine (16) Oilio (14) Dave Davies (12) Dionisius (12) Drunk Driver (12) Duncan McPherson (11) Solomon XI (11) Tuleingel (11) Astria Tiphareth (10) Somealtofmine (10) Traidor Disloyal (10) That's 14 players with 200 posts. The other 139 posters had 9 posts or less. But what do those stats really mean? I see numbers, but with any statistic, they are subject to the usage and the intent. How many of those 'against' posts are well-thought out arguments and replies, and how many are namecalling and 'you haven't answered my question' comments? How many of each side are alts? In the infamous 'top ten', you have one player listed twice. Maximillian and Ki An are the same player. How many times does that happen in the against crowd? Max seems to be the only one I see admitting to using two separate characters, and he makes no hubbub about it. So while you can feel all safe and secure that your with the popular crowd, look to see who's standing with you. Look at the quality of the posts on either side (for example, DigitalCommunist is a bit extreme, even for me). Look at DrunkDrivers arguments. Fun facts, true. But to take the statistics any further than that is arrogance and foolishness. Maybe you don't agree, and you are content to crone about how unpopular this idea is. Personally, I am sick of idiots who think everything should be an American Idol popularity contest. Throughout history, geniuses and good people have always been the minority group, and were often persecuted and killed by the 'majority' for their views. Check out many of the great scientists and writers deemed heretics and burned, only to have their views found for truth centuries later. Course, this doesn't mean that either side should be compared to these great minds . Far from it. But I do firmly believe that the majority of human beings are firmly stupid and self-centered, and that fact should be kept in mind. Just look at history. Democracy has the same success rate as Socialism or Communism. It's the Republic, Dictator and Monarchial governing systems that have the longest longevity and success rates. Few individuals leading many. Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:38:00 - [1082] Originally by: Le Skunk DUDE you pulled my name out of nowhere and started trolling. I try to avoid talking to you, as Ive found you utterly one sided, and deliberately ignorant. I even didnt troll you when there was a suggestion of you standing for CSM But you cant deny your whole game stance is based around you getting ganked though utter stupidity when the privateers wardecced you - and since that humiliation - you have undertakken to get this game pacified by any means neccesary. Your vocal out spurts about "wardec exploits" have been strangely subdued when it comes to using alt corps to wardec yourself, or creating a ring of alt corps to hop though as soon as you get wardecced. Your a big stinking hypocrite. (add one to my stats please) SKUNK Le Skunk, Is this how you try and gain support? By lying? It shows that in order to sell your own ideas you have to smudge them with lies. I've lost lots of ships during my 3+ years in Eve and you bring up a loss from years ago to claim it's why I stand behind my own ideas? I have my opinions because I have my own convictions regardless on why you think I have them. And unlike you, I need not to lie in order to sell them. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:04:00 - [1083] I See that HURT SOMEONE FEELINGs? When the truth comes to home you will get snip. CCP Knows that this thread is wrong and you snipping it made me believe it even more.. There is a much bigger problem for them in the future! Im not going to press this shit, but good luck with your FLAME! Thanks you! for making it clear
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:14:00 - [1084] Ruze, You asked me to show why I thought I was in the majority and so I did. The fact is that on this thread, and I can't speak of any other but this one, the OP idea is supported by a minority of posters, not the majority. Now, your issue is not whether I'm in the majority or not, but which responses are well-thought. So I can safely assume we're past the majority/minority debate? In reference to which posts have been well-thought, this is just going to reduce to a "my idea is well-thought, yours isn't" debacle. I've seen good posts from both sides of the fence. As you might imagine I side with the idea that missions in high sec do not pose any significant problems. To me the fact that missions provide an infinte supply of resources isn't causing big problems. Obviously, to some it is. Who is to be believed? I also believe allowing missions in high sec gives players the opportunity to gain some isk to PVP in low/0.0 sec. I think that having missions as an infinite provider of sources gives all players an opportunity to enjoy the game to a certain extent. Making every single resource in Eve finite will only allow some to enjoy the game. The rest will just be fodder for the few. What I mostly see in this thread is not intelligent posts, but rather, "THIS IS WHAT'S BEST FOR EVE. IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT YOU'RE A RE.TARD". CCP has to try and accommodate players. Not the majority and not the minority. But it needs to accommodate all types. I firmly believe this is the reason why high sec exists. Some of us have jobs already. We don't want to log in and wait in line until a mission becomes available. Or have to put up with stress by players looking for cheap "lulz". And for the record, even though I use the word "we" I assure you I operate in low sec :). So I'm not trying to save my own playstyle here. But I do remember what it's like to be in high sec. And I believe those players deserve to have a piece of Eve as well. I'll just add that just because Eve is an MMO game doesn't mean that you must always be pinned down against other players. MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online game. It doesn't exclude you from running missions solo. It doesn't exclude you from doing other things solo. All it means is that it is an online world created to accommodate lots of players. Now, CCP has stated numerous times that Eve is primarily a PVP game. But they also emphasize it is PVP in its broadest sense, not just combat. Missions also allow corp members to socialize while building up resources. I know this because my corporation does this once in a while. There's nothing wrong with this, in my humble opinion. And I think we can all agree that building relationships within a corporation is a good thing. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:22:00 - [1085] Point is they want to push people out of empire, and into the other system to make room for the new people. Not to discourage them with lag fest. But doing this changes the mechanic of how EVE works. Because the community is made up of PVP and PVE players. This threatening the community as seen, and this is why there is such a long post on the forum! Where the hell is the debate team anyways?
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:22:00 - [1086] Originally by: Exlegion Is this how you try and gain support? By lying? It shows that in order to sell your own ideas you have to smudge them with lies. I've lost lots of ships during my 3+ years in Eve and you bring up a loss from years ago to claim it's why I stand behind my own ideas? Ok ill call you out - wheres the links to these pvp losses. SKUNK
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:28:00 - [1087] Originally by: Gracious NightAngel Point is they want to push people out of empire, and into the other system to make room for the new people. Not to discourage them with lag fest. But doing this changes the mechanic of how EVE works. Because the community is made up of PVP and PVE players. This threatening the community as seen, and this is why there is such a long post on the forum! Where the hell is the debate team anyways? Push is a bad word. It would be better if some mechanic was in place that would draw players out of hisec, to lure them into taking more risks and into joining corporations and playing as a team. You can tighten the belt on hisec, but you'd still have to balance minerals and losec/nulsec profits in order to achieve this. And that's only one of many points argued here. Another one is that hisec isk invalidates anything you do in losec and nulsec. You can't push that corp out of the system you want to move into, because no matter if you shut off their access to mining and moons, you can't stop them from using a hundred alts to fund themselves through hisec missions, safe and secure and untouchable. Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:30:00 - [1088] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 02/09/2008 14:20:06 Ruze, Take a look at this thread alone. If you don't believe the stats I posted, count them yourself. See how many players agree with you and how many don't. Here are my stats again: Quote: Some fun facts about this thread: There are 34 pages to this thread. 1002 posts plus the OP! Out of 223 posters: 37 Players agree with the OP. 153 Players disagree. 33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed. The bulk of posts came from: Agree with OP (# of posts) Maximillian Bayonette (89) Ruze (84) Gamesguy (62) DigitalCommunist (36) Malcanis (34) Ki An (29) Kahega Amielden (15) Le Skunk (12) Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11) Tippia (11) That's 10 players with 383 posts. The other 27 "Yay!" players had 9 posts or less in this thread. Disagree with OP (# of posts) Ogul (28) Sheriff Jones (23) Exlegion (20) Galvatine (16) Oilio (14) Dave Davies (12) Dionisius (12) Drunk Driver (12) Duncan McPherson (11) Solomon XI (11) Tuleingel (11) Astria Tiphareth (10) Somealtofmine (10) Traidor Disloyal (10) That's 14 players with 200 posts. The other 139 posters had 9 posts or less. But what do those stats really mean? I see numbers, but with any statistic, they are subject to the usage and the intent. How many of those 'against' posts are well-thought out arguments and replies, and how many are namecalling and 'you haven't answered my question' comments? How many of each side are alts? In the infamous 'top ten', you have one player listed twice. Maximillian and Ki An are the same player. How many times does that happen in the against crowd? Max seems to be the only one I see admitting to using two separate characters, and he makes no hubbub about it. So while you can feel all safe and secure that your with the popular crowd, look to see who's standing with you. Look at the quality of the posts on either side (for example, DigitalCommunist is a bit extreme, even for me). Look at DrunkDrivers arguments. Fun facts, true. But to take the statistics any further than that is arrogance and foolishness. Maybe you don't agree, and you are content to crone about how unpopular this idea is. Personally, I am sick of idiots who think everything should be an American Idol popularity contest. Throughout history, geniuses and good people have always been the minority group, and were often persecuted and killed by the 'majority' for their views. Check out many of the great scientists and writers deemed heretics and burned, only to have their views found for truth centuries later. Course, this doesn't mean that either side should be compared to these great minds . Far from it. But I do firmly believe that the majority of human beings are firmly stupid and self-centered, and that fact should be kept in mind. Just look at history. Democracy has the same success rate as Socialism or Communism. It's the Republic, Dictator and Monarchial governing systems that have the longest longevity and success rates. Few individuals leading many. You only forget that dictatorships and monarchies only work until along the line you pick up a ruler that comes lacking in brains department. Besides I'm not against or in favor of this mockery of a thread i just limit myself to point out the hypocrisy of some players that advocate " game balance ". _____________________________________
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:35:00 - [1089] NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! .
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:36:00 - [1090] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Gracious NightAngel Point is they want to push people out of empire, and into the other system to make room for the new people. Not to discourage them with lag fest. But doing this changes the mechanic of how EVE works. Because the community is made up of PVP and PVE players. This threatening the community as seen, and this is why there is such a long post on the forum! Where the hell is the debate team anyways? Push is a bad word. It would be better if some mechanic was in place that would draw players out of hisec, to lure them into taking more risks and into joining corporations and playing as a team. You can tighten the belt on hisec, but you'd still have to balance minerals and losec/nulsec profits in order to achieve this. And that's only one of many points argued here. Another one is that hisec isk invalidates anything you do in losec and nulsec. You can't push that corp out of the system you want to move into, because no matter if you shut off their access to mining and moons, you can't stop them from using a hundred alts to fund themselves through hisec missions, safe and secure and untouchable. Some people play EVE just for pure fun. They don't want to PVP Or believe in loosing ships that took them a long to get. Not to mention implants that cost a great deal of isk and LP. Last Faction gear that is overpriced and sometimes hard to come by! I can't say that I blame myself or my friends, for giving CPP the Big Finger

Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:42:00 - [1091] Originally by: Dionisius You only forget that dictatorships and monarchies only work until along the line you pick up a ruler that comes lacking in brains department. Besides I'm not against or in favor of this mockery of a thread i just limit myself to point out the hypocrisy of some players that advocate " game balance ". Republics have that same fault. Take the situation America is currently in, for instance Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:44:00 - [1092] Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:47:00 - [1093] Originally by: Le Skunk I try to avoid talking to you, as Ive found you utterly one sided, and deliberately ignorant. Painting a picture of yourself, Le Skunk? Or have you given up whining about being nerfed last year? ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:49:00 - [1094] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES Being a Pirate I would say "That a Line I might use" TBH This thread getting old
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:52:00 - [1095] Originally by: Cruel Crow TBH This thread getting old So, start a new one. More exposure is good. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:54:00 - [1096] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Dionisius You only forget that dictatorships and monarchies only work until along the line you pick up a ruler that comes lacking in brains department. Besides I'm not against or in favor of this mockery of a thread i just limit myself to point out the hypocrisy of some players that advocate " game balance ". Republics have that same fault. Take the situation America is currently in, for instance I would be inclined to say that the american situation is more serious because it mixes government stupidity with greed. And yes you are right, Democracies and Republics face the same, if not more problems in terms of bad management and corruption, interestingly you can observe that many "democracies" are nothing more than well camouflaged dictatorships. Well anyways, back on topic... _____________________________________
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:58:00 - [1097] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES You missed the target! Reload and try again!
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:06:00 - [1098] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES You missed the target! Reload and try again! Isk seller posts again. Infamy! Shameless! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:21:00 - [1099] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES You missed the target! Reload and try again! Isk seller posts again. Infamy! Shameless! Well, that got boring fast. Let's go back to a question you dodged earlier. I'd be curious to see if you dodge it again. When did this passion for nerfing level 4 missions hit you? Was it after or before CCP released their notes for the security changes in empire? . .
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:24:00 - [1100] Something is clearly wrong when you can make more isk grinding missions in the safety of high sec than you can ratting or mining in 0.0.

Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:25:00 - [1101] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES You missed the target! Reload and try again! Isk seller posts again. Infamy! Shameless! Well, that got boring fast. Let's go back to a question you dodged earlier. I'd be curious to see if you dodge it again. When did this passion for nerfing level 4 missions hit you? Was it after or before CCP released their notes for the security changes in empire? . . Bump
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:29:00 - [1102] Originally by: Drunk Driver Well, that got boring fast. Let's go back to a question you dodged earlier. I'd be curious to see if you dodge it again. When did this passion for nerfing level 4 missions hit you? Was it after or before CCP released their notes for the security changes in empire? So, how much do you charge for 100mil? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Judge Ment Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:35:00 - [1103] 400million will get you 2month GTC
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:36:00 - [1104] Originally by: Judge Ment 400million will get you 2month GTC I'd rather buy from Drunk Driver. He's a forum celebrity and I trust him more than CCP. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Hurrum Hurrum Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:44:00 - [1105] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver NUCLEAR POWERED PIRATE REVENGE THREAD STILL LIVES! . OBVIOUS ISK FARMER REPEATS LIES You missed the target! Reload and try again! Isk seller posts again. Infamy! Shameless! Well, that got boring fast. Let's go back to a question you dodged earlier. I'd be curious to see if you dodge it again. When did this passion for nerfing level 4 missions hit you? Was it after or before CCP released their notes for the security changes in empire? He spent 50 hours a week running level 4 missions in January 2008. It took 8 months for all the pent up frustration and anger to fester into the Malcanis we see today.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:45:00 - [1106] Isk seller........ That's the best you fan boys can do? .
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:47:00 - [1107] Originally by: Drunk Driver Isk seller........ That's the best you fan boys can do? I'm still waiting for that price quote. Also, please refrain from pressing enter so many times after typing your post. Parkinson's can be hell, but at least try. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:49:00 - [1108] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Drunk Driver Isk seller........ That's the best you fan boys can do? I'm still waiting for that price quote. Also, please refrain from pressing enter so many times after typing your post. Parkinson's can be hell, but at least try. Boring........ Try again. .
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:51:00 - [1109] I believe the ISK Buyers are nothing more then working class people who don't have time grind the game. I also believe GTC Is form of selling ISK.. I have proven a point in so many POST that I could make the owner of CCP head spin for WEEKS. EVE is a great game, but like Diablo there is Loop hole for people to make money. SORRY CCP the only answer is to close the game. (Or do what SWG Did) This will still loose clients..
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:53:00 - [1110] Originally by: Ki An Also, please refrain from pressing enter so many times after typing your post. Parkinson's can be hell, but at least try. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.

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