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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.27 22:03:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: madaluap They are?
They were last I looked (at least web drones...) and even if they weren't, 84% still means it takes two of you to get less effect than one person now, and 5 to get the effect of two.
-Liang
Oh yeh, webdrones sure. You are right about that, allthough im pretty sure that 2* -90% webs slow you down to 1%....eventually. Oh, lets just wait what the nano-nerf will bring. Cannot get worse than a megathron with 1 co-proc, crap damage/resists and major ca****ues vs a 8 heatsink, 3 sensorboost, 7 megapulse geddon. Amarr will still feel the hurt. _________________________________________________ |
Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.27 22:48:00 -
[62]
Originally by: madaluap
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, because webs stack...
-Liang
They are?
Originally by: CCP Nozh
We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.
Linkage
No idea if they have removed it though.
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Richard Soren
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:56:00 -
[63]
I¦m wondering why nobody is testing it at Multi. When I¦m logging in there are 3 players at the server (thry to find somebody to test the new configs...... ). Three pages full of whine and brabbeling and assumptions but nobody verifying something......
Come on the server, let¦s get a test and then let¦s whine (which is unavoidable anyway )
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:27:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Richard Soren I¦m wondering why nobody is testing it at Multi. When I¦m logging in there are 3 players at the server (thry to find somebody to test the new configs...... ). Three pages full of whine and brabbeling and assumptions but nobody verifying something......
Come on the server, let¦s get a test and then let¦s whine (which is unavoidable anyway )
FFS it just came back up today mate.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
royal killer
Amarr The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:42:00 -
[65]
How about just increasing a little bit blaster's optimal and falloff ? So that way it can at least do any damage while it ''tries'' to get to the target. --------------------
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Richard Soren
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:48:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Liang Nuren FFS it just came back up today mate.
-Liang[/quote
FFS? Don¦t know what you mean, but was on Multi the last two days and had a look on MWD, AB and ship changes....
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: royal killer How about just increasing a little bit blaster's optimal and falloff ? So that way it can at least do any damage while it ''tries'' to get to the target.
If you increase the falloff enough to be workable, they just become ACs with worse damage types, better damage and cap use. It would be either making AC's useless, or making blasters identical.
If you increase the optimal enough to be workable, they just become pulse lasers.
The weapon types, especially at bs level close range, are moderately balanced for range, actually, and have a nice distinctino where each has its own ability to find a "sweet-spot" agains the other.
The problem is tracking, under the new web rules. You have a situation where a one-size smaller ship can out-track a big ship, and get under its guns. This is FINE. However, blasters are an exception. With blasters, the small ships can both /kite/ the blasters, due to their extreme short range, AND out-track them up close, when webbed. This doesn't work for pulses, and thus there's a preferred option. A small ship knows "****ing hell, I need to get under that geddon's guns". On TQ, vs a mega it goes "I dont wanna do that! Stay at range!". On test, it now goes "lol, I can go anywhere I want".
The blaster ship should be kited, the pulse or ranged ship, out-tracked. Thus, blasters need a HUGE tracking boost to rectify this, otherwise they become killable by anything. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:40:00 -
[68]
Blaster boats are taking a big hit. Saying "omg cry more n00b" doesn't make it any less of a nerf. Getting in range,staying in range and hitting something once IN range is pretty much out the window. While I agree there is a lot of un-warranted whining on this forum this really isn't one of those cases.
To the people talking about the Ishtar. I understand it was OK tanked before and I will admit that I wasn't playing the game at that point. What I don't understand is why anyone would fly it. Since the speed nerf was announced I have spent a LOT of time on trying to come up with Ishtar fits. I always end up back at the same place....in a Domi. The Domi has more EHP, more slots, is more versatile, can fit a better tank and is a fraction of the cost while being insurable. The Ishtar has better agility/mobility.
I think that this will boost the Arazu/Lach. I don't think it will be a boost because of the scram change however. I think that the Arazu/Lach will be good for acting as the tank for recons and hacs that fight out side of 25k. The gal recons can tackle from 40k out and damp the targeting range down that the target won't be able to lock anything down. Not great for gate camping but god for roaming gangs. Great for taking on BS's. Arazu and curse will be a serious pain in the neck.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:19:00 -
[69]
I fly caldari blaster boats - so I've dealt with a lack of tracking bonus that the mega gets. To be honest, when I'm going against large targets - the motion between ships is usually linear and I'm not hurting on tracking too bad. I don't usually attack small fast ships anyways. My range bonus will help me out though, with targets trying to get away (I use webbing drones in conjunction with a web).
Not to give obvious advice - but here's a 'method I've used in hitting people with turrets better. Probably not news to experienced pilots - but for newbies its nice - I figured it out myself after a few months of flying with turret ships lol.
- Once you've engaged your target - switch camera view to their ship. - As they orbit or move, rotate your camera so it faces the direction they're pointing in. - Double click right in front of the target ship - this makes your ship point in the same direction as the target ship. If they're orbiting, you're going to have to click a lot, turning your camera and aligning your ship with the orbiting target. - Watch the transversal on your overview drop. - Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds.
With a non-tracking bonused Rokh, firing in falloff, I was able to hit an orbiting assault frigate.
I think the nerf is going to affect BS blaster boats against smaller targets (BC/HACs) - but probably not much against other BS-sized opponents.
That alone is a problem, because currently the remaining advantage of blasters over torps is in hitting smaller targets without damage reducing explosion radius effects.
Its just going to mean your gang will need more webs/webbing drones - or support ships offering target painting/tracking enhancing.
Better start training for Minnie recons/logistics ships. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:27:00 -
[70]
Quote: If you increase the falloff enough to be workable, they just become ACs with worse damage types, better damage and cap use. It would be either making AC's useless, or making blasters identical.
...
The weapon types, especially at bs level close range, are moderately balanced for range, actually, and have a nice distinctino where each has its own ability to find a "sweet-spot" agains the other.
I'm a little curious where the AC "sweet spot" is.
Quote: Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds.
Not so sure about that math. Perhaps you mean you will more likely get at least some hits in a short amount of time.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:44:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Boz Well
Quote: Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds.
Not so sure about that math. Perhaps you mean you will more likely get at least some hits in a short amount of time.
What I'm saying is:
Target X is orbiting you/flying around you. At times their transversal is high - at other times its lower.
If you fire all 8 guns at once - you may miss all 8 if the target is at a high transversal.
However if you stagger the shots - fire a gun every second or two. Now some shots may hit the target if their transversal is low.
You'll get a few hits over time, versus the one lucky shot effect. Its hard to explain, Ive just had experience in shooting turrets that I tend to hit orbiting targets better if I stagger my shots vs volleys. If I could draw an animation I could make my point better.
I've used this in Rail Harpies against Crows, or null-ammo blaster boats against nanos. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:16:00 -
[72]
Having a long history with blasterboats I propose the following (extremely radical) changes:
- Change tanking (armor rep amount) bonus of brutix and hyperion to falloff bonus' ala deimos (drop the hyperion drone bay to 75m3 to balance if necessary) - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x - Keep everything else about them the same
Reasons for these radical changes: - Blasters use up the most cap of all weapons (considering the -50% consumption bonus on laser boats)
- The ships that fit them are slow and cant fit a sustainable tank while dishing out DPS.
- Blasterboats have a very short range and even getting in range is very cap consuming and an absolute death race. With the nano changes sustaining the range will also be a problem.
IN THE END: The risk of flying a blasterboat which is hard to tank, hard to get in/sustain range, that is very cap unstable is not worth the marginally small increase in DPS over the other options (pulse boats which hardly need moving or AC boats that are agile deadly mosquitos, not to mention missiles..). So leave the blasterboats as glass cannons but increase the caliber of that cannon to make it a worthwhile trip to the target.
Other options will probably tend to turn blasterboats into something that cant tank like Amarr or cant move around like Minmatar. We all know that gallente navy doctrine emphasis on DMG so lets make it clear.
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kunming Having a long history with blasterboats I propose the following (extremely radical) changes:
- Change tanking (armor rep amount) bonus of brutix and hyperion to falloff bonus' ala deimos (drop the hyperion drone bay to 75m3 to balance if necessary) - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x - Keep everything else about them the same
Reasons for these radical changes: - Blasters use up the most cap of all weapons (considering the -50% consumption bonus on laser boats)
- The ships that fit them are slow and cant fit a sustainable tank while dishing out DPS.
- Blasterboats have a very short range and even getting in range is very cap consuming and an absolute death race. With the nano changes sustaining the range will also be a problem.
IN THE END: The risk of flying a blasterboat which is hard to tank, hard to get in/sustain range, that is very cap unstable is not worth the marginally small increase in DPS over the other options (pulse boats which hardly need moving or AC boats that are agile deadly mosquitos, not to mention missiles..). So leave the blasterboats as glass cannons but increase the caliber of that cannon to make it a worthwhile trip to the target.
Other options will probably tend to turn blasterboats into something that cant tank like Amarr or cant move around like Minmatar. We all know that gallente navy doctrine emphasis on DMG so lets make it clear.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:25:00 -
[74]
Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones.
Can anyone share their experiences.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Richard Soren FFS? Don¦t know what you mean, but was on Multi the last two days and had a look on MWD, AB and ship changes....
When I wrote that, they'd made the post that they'd put up multi in my "morning". To me, it had been up since morning. To you, perhaps two days.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Birkinz Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones.
Can anyone share their experiences.
A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
kyrv
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 -
[77]
I get it this threads to put off CCP from nerfing the blasters because megathron dps is imbalanced.
It did throw me off for a while
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Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:42:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Birkinz Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones.
Can anyone share their experiences.
A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?
-Liang
A ship should not be forced to fit 2 webs to be useful at all, that points out to a problem.
ALSO, my previous post was serious why the smileys I got no idea.
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:52:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kunming
A ship should not be forced to fit 2 webs to be useful at all, that points out to a problem.
ALSO, my previous post was serious why the smileys I got no idea.
TBH I figure they'll either have to go that route or give blasters 4x the tracking they have now... they're already almost useless in gangs and the web nerf just seals the deal.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:58:00 -
[80]
"A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?"
It would be the cap booster since I dont have one now. I have a cap recharger and it is not essential. If the MWD uses less cap I will still have 5/6 mins firing with 1 blast of the MWD which is enough for me. I use the mega fro ambushing things and have never needed a cap booster + I can fit it with my fit.
It may not be ideal but it is what I plan to do if nothing changes before the patch goes live.
If all else fails I have caldari BS 5 too.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:25:00 -
[81]
Edited by: The Djego on 28/08/2008 16:26:19
Originally by: Birkinz "A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?"
It would be the cap booster since I dont have one now. I have a cap recharger and it is not essential. If the MWD uses less cap I will still have 5/6 mins firing with 1 blast of the MWD which is enough for me. I use the mega fro ambushing things and have never needed a cap booster + I can fit it with my fit.
It may not be ideal but it is what I plan to do if nothing changes before the patch goes live.
If all else fails I have caldari BS 5 too.
2 Webs work(not realy good but they do the job) against a non AB Cruiser, if the Cruiser has a AB it can still outrun tracking preaty good.
Most of the time I go with a Medium Cap Booster since the fight mostly don¦t start at 100% Cap and speed up aligning with the MWD takes quite some cap for traveling. Neuts will not become less common with the changes, they will get more common, so without a Cap Booster, it will be quite hard to survive at the BC\BS level vs Neuts.
Quote: - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x
Increase Damage on blaster ships. Actualy yes(+50-100% will be to mutch for shure), but fixing usability in general(that apeared with the new setting) is far more important in the end. Even if a Blaster Mega would have 2k DPS while beeing unable to hold a Target or hit it properly in his Range it would still not be a good ship, at least in it¦s traditional use, that is defined in small Gang and solo.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one?
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:42:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Birkinz Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one?
Depends on the range, Puls have less Tracking than Blasters. If the Cruiser gets close enught and don¦t aproche in a straigt line it can avoid getting poped in the beginning(at 10-6km) and move closer to a more or less save orbit at 1500-2000m. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:50:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 28/08/2008 16:51:27 This is my anti nano mega setup. It is a gang ship as it has no tackle. Worked great for popping nano's and I am hoping it will work fairly well as a mid range ship after the nano nerf.
[Megathron, Mid Range] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 800 Prototype I Sensor Booster, Targeting Range Optical Tracking Computer I, Tracking Speed
350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Drone Link Augmentor I
Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Hybrid Locus Coordinator I [empty rig slot]
Ogre II x5
DPS is good (about 800 with antimatter) Not great. I can't use t2 larges so I carry Three differnt types of faction ammo for different ranges. Antimatter, thorium and iron. Buffer is good (Again, not great). The rigs are cheap so cost isn't much of an issue. Can also cause problem for falcons if you are fighting someplace where they don't have bookmarks. They tend to come in 100k off from a gang make which this will reach with iron. Will be even better with spike and T2's.
I haven't tested this on sisi yet so as far as how it will work for this patch I can't say for sure. But I would assume that since it could hit a cruiser going 4k it should probably be able to hit just about anything.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:52:00 -
[85]
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Birkinz Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one?
Depends on the range, Puls have less Tracking than Blasters. If the Cruiser gets close enught and don¦t aproche in a straigt line it can avoid getting poped in the beginning(at 10-6km) and move closer to a more or less save orbit at 1500-2000m.
Ya, it's not that pulse track better, it's simply they have a lot more range. While blasters have to make their way up to the target (this will be tougher post patch) and then fight at close range, it's thus more difficult for them to track their enemy, not simply because of their tracking attribute but mainly because of the range they're trying to fight at. This is compounded by the fact that CCP is nerfing webs, making it much more difficult to track at those close ranges.
If you get up on a pulse, or AC, battleship, don't expect it to do any better. The difference is that the other two races have the option to fight at distance and still deal nice damage (especially Amarr).
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:27:00 -
[86]
Edited by: The Djego on 28/08/2008 17:29:54
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Sniperfitting
Well it is mostly a Sniper Fitting. Shooting something at 50km is fare more easy as at 5km also Nano Ships suffer of her Sig Radius at this ranges, leading to a good hit chance once the speed don¦t manages to outrun Tracking(putting rad/s in account). If the ship moves closer or tryes to maximize his Trasverial to the sniper, you will hit less till a point where you will miss all the time. Exactly this is the Problem located at Blasters(and other short range Turrets to) that web range don¦t fixes Tracking at very close ranges to a amout that favours the short Range ship because of the still good speed of the target.
With the change, Sniping(also Med Range Combat/Out of Web Range) at itself got a boost because of the slower ship speeds. Real short Range Combat got a nerf because of the weaker Web and increased time to get into this ranges.
I would also add that a Amarr Ship would outperform the Mega here(by Tracking, Damage and range) what is fair because the ships/weapons are designed to outperform other Turrets at range while having Drawbacks(Tracking) close, making it more of a fleet/gang ship instead of a solo/shortrange ship.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:39:00 -
[87]
I Dont really consider that fit a sniper fit, more of a mid range fit. But I guess that depends on what you consider a sniper fit. To me sniper fit means able to engage and 150k while being within optimal. Most sniper fits also have next to no buffer. That mega fit is more for engaging in the 20-60k Range.
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Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:01:00 -
[88]
Well the thread is mostly about blasters and gallente at close range, 50km and rail guns hardly fit into that catagory.
Anyways blasters should work efficiently at close range as good as pulse work at its medium range. Pulse will work at its optimal and will start missing once you close in, but with blasters its the case that not only do you have a hard time hitting stuff in your optimal range you will miss all the time when the target is out of the optimal range!
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:03:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/08/2008 18:05:26 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/08/2008 18:03:44
Originally by: Terianna Eri
It's actually 300% increase, or 400% of original value.
And no, he's not exaggerating.
Pre-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 30m/s (90% reduction) Post-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 120m/s (60% reduction)
Speed while webbed is now 4 times faster than it used to be... 4x faster = 400% of origianl value, or 1x value + 3x value, or 100% + 300%, or 300% increase.
l2math?
Yes, your math is correct. Problem is that your assumptions are generally wrong. And yes, that makes him exaggerate the issue.
Why? Because you don't consider that alot of ships will be going slower post patch then pre patch. So 300m/s will generally be less (on some ships the speed changes are extremely large) after patch. The second thing you don't consider is that in alot of cases being webbed will also mean being warp scrambled (ie, your mwd will not work in webrange). That will decrease the general post patch within-web-range-speed to ALOT less then post patch. With that in mind the web nerf is not all that dramatic as some of you like to make people belive.
The only real problem has been the missiles on the test server and they are being looked at naturally. Other then that the changes are great and will make way for more strategical encounters. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:06:00 -
[90]
Could be worse. You could have the tempest as your BS.
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