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How will gallente be after nano nerf?

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Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.29 15:50:00 - [121] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Birkinz Good Points, but I think the range thing is overdone. The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Locus rigs are a waste of time on a blaster ship - but they might give a large tactical advantage on a midrange weapon class like lasers. Back in the day I'd make the argument that lasers had a tougher time against armor resists - however those days are long gone, and hybrids no longer have any significant advantage over lasers. Compare top tier BS - Abbaddon vs Hyperion - the disparity only gets worse due to the advantage of a resist bonus vs an active rep bonus. I can't comment much more, i fly Rokh's so my range issue isn't as bad - however my dps issue still stands! __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:05:00 - [122] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Locus rigs are a waste of time on a blaster ship - but they might give a large tactical advantage on a midrange weapon class like lasers. Back in the day I'd make the argument that lasers had a tougher time against armor resists - however those days are long gone, and hybrids no longer have any significant advantage over lasers. Compare top tier BS - Abbaddon vs Hyperion - the disparity only gets worse due to the advantage of a resist bonus vs an active rep bonus. I can't comment much more, i fly Rokh's so my range issue isn't as bad - however my dps issue still stands! Yes, we know passive tanking is good in large scale pvp and active tanking does well in solo and smaller gangs where incoming damage is less. Maybe you should have thought about that before picking a race with active tanking bonus if all you wanted to do is passive tank in massive slugfests. Also my point above was that he was manipulating fittings and fitting the geddon in a way no one fits it just to prove a point. A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. Oh and lets not forget that the geddon has 3 mids wich is a huge downside in todays pvp. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:19:00 - [123] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. So you admit that Amarr BS's are overpowered and need a nerf? -Liang Fakeedit: I'd prefer to see a blaster and projectile boost, but tbh, Amarr/Caldari BS's are so far out there ... -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
NeoTheo Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:20:00 - [124] basically against enemys of the same size the issues should be minimal. but this effectivly nerfs blasterships when firing on smaller faster targets, whilst thats actaully not bad if it was a general change, its not, cause nothing is getting stiffed like blasters are getting stiffed. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:11:00 - [125] Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:13:59 Those numbers for the geddon are plain wrong. Please try to actually fit the ship or number the amount of ridiculous expensive faction mods and implants you use. A 3 locus rig geddon cannot even fit a full rack of mega pulse lasers without a fitting implant. Much less things like injectors or mwd. So you gotta downgrade some of the guns to dhp which sets your effective range at about 53km (2xlocus rig). You are also not doing 1000dps at that range not even if you wait for your ogres to travel the whole distance(LOL). (more like 880 with t2 wardens) At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Such a geddon (i did 2 x locus, 1 x trimark) would have less ehp than the megathron (absolutely exceptional situation for this ship but you conveniently don't mention it). Now, i am not going to say blaster ships don't have issues because they do. And the next patch is going to make it really hurt. But how about we concentrate on making blaster ships better where they lack instead of talking about nerfing ships that work perfectly fine this year (i.e. amarr). If it becomes apparent that laser are overpowered under the new game mechanics then they need to be looked at and get rebalanced. But this should only happen: 1) after we the effects of the nerf have been explored on TQ 2) after possibilities to make blaster ships more viable via buffs have been explored 3) after a thorough and honest look at the amarr ships (not like the wrong numbers spouted by some people here) And a last thought: i think lyria is kind of spot when she tells you not to expect your blasterthron to work as good in larger gangs than a geddon. Amarr ships are made for larger gangs and fleet engagements where they can use their big buffer tanks and awesome range. But don't forget that is virtually the only thing they can do good. Break it or make it so everyone can do this and there will (again) be no reason to fly amarr at all. Active tanking certainly needs a look at and the way it is now even in a gang size of only 5 people an amarr bs will often outperform blaster ships. This is in my opinion the real issue. If you want resistance bonuses and scorch then please train amarr. Making blasters into mini lasers with pseudo scorch will only make the game boring in the long run. my 2 cents
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Myra2007 At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Just for starters: It's completely bullshit that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS from a gankthron, yet still easily gets a 45km optimal. Quote: If it becomes apparent that laser are overpowered under the new game mechanics then they need to be looked at and get rebalanced. Lasers are currently overpowered on TQ in regards to both blasters and projectiles. Only Rails have anything approaching parity, and they don't approach parity very well. Quote: But this should only happen: 1) after we the effects of the nerf have been explored on TQ No, I refuse to allow you to have a year of WTF-Overpoweredness while we "explore" how WTF broken laser boats are next to all other turret ships. Quote: 2) after possibilities to make blaster ships more viable via buffs have been explored You have to be careful about continuous boosts. As things stand with regards to the nerf, missiles are the only thing that even stand reasonably well in comparison to lasers... and they're being "looked at" for being stupidly overpowered. Quote: 3) after a thorough and honest look at the amarr ships (not like the wrong numbers spouted by some people here) A thorough and honest look at blasters (on TQ right now) yields that there's no real reason to use them in a gang size of over 2. Once the nano nerf hits, a thorough and honest look at blasters yields that there's no reason to use them in a gang size over 0. A thorough and honest look at projectiles (both AC's and artillery) yields that the only time they really avail you much is if you've got a double damage bonus AND you're constantly under the effect of 20 heavy neuts. They're freaking CAPLESS!!! With this in mind, how can you not see that lasers are blindly overpowered next to the other turret ships. You remember 2 years ago when everyone was comparing every ship to the Megathron? The same thing is happening to Amarr now. There's a reason. Quote: And a last thought: i think lyria is kind of spot when she tells you not to expect your blasterthron to work as good in larger gangs than a geddon. Amarr ships are made for larger gangs and fleet engagements where they can use their big buffer tanks and awesome range. But don't forget that is virtually the only thing they can do good. Break it or make it so everyone can do this and there will (again) be no reason to fly amarr at all. And on the flip side, if you make it so that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS over a gankthron, there's no reason at all to fly Gallente. Make it so that a Geddon deals more DPS at every conceivable range than a Tempest and there's no reason to fly Minnie. Hmm, I'm starting to see a pattern. Quote: If you want resistance bonuses and scorch then please train amarr. Making blasters into mini lasers with pseudo scorch will only make the game boring in the long run. THIS I can agree with. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:45:00 - [127] Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:52:55 Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:45:18 Originally by: Liang Nuren Just for starters: It's completely bullshit that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS from a gankthron, yet still easily gets a 45km optimal. That may be your opinion but doesn't make wrong numbers right. (the numbers my post referred to ofc) Originally by: Liang Nuren No, I refuse to allow you to have a year of WTF-Overpoweredness while we "explore" how WTF broken laser boats are next to all other turret ships. Yes, you'd rather overboost blasters now and then care about amarr in 1-2 years. We can play that game all day long. I don't see what sense it makes because these things do not lie in our hands. Originally by: Liang Nuren You have to be careful about continuous boosts. As things stand with regards to the nerf, missiles are the only thing that even stand reasonably well in comparison to lasers... and they're being "looked at" for being stupidly overpowered. You are right about boosting as far as a balancing measure goes. But continuous boosts as in what? Blasters haven't been boosted lately afaik. Originally by: Liang Nuren A thorough and honest look at blasters (on TQ right now) yields that there's no real reason to use them in a gang size of over 2. Once the nano nerf hits, a thorough and honest look at blasters yields that there's no reason to use them in a gang size over 0. And you're gonna fix this how by nerfing lasers? Originally by: Liang Nuren A thorough and honest look at projectiles (both AC's and artillery) yields that the only time they really avail you much is if you've got a double damage bonus AND you're constantly under the effect of 20 heavy neuts. They're freaking CAPLESS!!! Dude, i didn't even touch that issue. How about you actually adress my post and not yell at me for no reason? Originally by: Liang Nuren With this in mind, how can you not see that lasers are blindly overpowered next to the other turret ships. You remember 2 years ago when everyone was comparing every ship to the Megathron? The same thing is happening to Amarr now. There's a reason. So, the megathron was overpowered 2 years ago? Oh wait i very well remember that time and it wasn't. Originally by: Liang Nuren And on the flip side, if you make it so that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS over a gankthron, there's no reason at all to fly Gallente. Make it so that a Geddon deals more DPS at every conceivable range than a Tempest and there's no reason to fly Minnie. Liang, i respect your opinion but with you its always the same. You purposely delete all the parts where i explicitly stated how blaster ships suffer (even more with the new patch), you twist my words, draw things into the discussion i never mentioned and make assumptions on what i think about those. This is not a way to have a productive discussion. I didn't say a geddon should only do 100-200dps less than a megathron. I was stating that it did. Because wrong numbers have been posted here. But you don't care about that as long as these wrong numbers support your argument. If i was spouting the same eft bullshit in one of your pest threads you guys would be all over me. But if its about nerfing lasers then hey lets just don't check if those numbers are really ok. I know you are big in propaganda and rethorics and often you use that for a good reason. This was one of your more disappointing posts. Anyway, i know what my opinion is and my posting records accounts for that. Try to make me look like a torch and pitchfork swinging blaster-antichrist but that doesn't make it so. Edit: Oh and no in no way have the ways to boost blasters already been explored. "Blasters are bad. NERF LASERS." Thats about as far as people go.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.08.29 18:04:00 - [128] yay 5 months of training large blaster spec and gallente battleship to max levels down the toilet. Enjoy the free cash ccp because now I'll be training Amarr battleships. Brill marketing plan really. CCP realize that if people enjoy the game enough and wish to be competitive they will just train whatever is currently "the best" hence people will extend their subscriptions. [/url]
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 18:31:00 - [129] Originally by: Myra2007 That may be your opinion but doesn't make wrong numbers right. (the numbers my post referred to ofc) Yes, my opinion is that it's ludicrous for a Geddon to do 100 less DPS and have a 45km optimal. Quote: Yes, you'd rather overboost blasters now and then care about amarr in 1-2 years. We can play that game all day long. I don't see what sense it makes because these things do not lie in our hands. It's hard to say. I do know that right now on TQ lasers are blindingly better than every other turret platform. Also, giving blasters a 4x tracking increase (which would never happen) wouldn't "overboost" them because they're already being hammered by mass/acceleration changes. Couple this with an already low engagement arena, and they're still not really useful in most situations. Quote: You are right about boosting as far as a balancing measure goes. But continuous boosts as in what? Blasters haven't been boosted lately afaik. I was referring to this phenomenon: - Boost lasers (now they're better than everything else) - Boost blasters (now they compete with lasers) - Boost projectiles (now they're more powerful than lasers) - Boost blasters (now they compete with projectiles) - Boost lasers (now they're way better than missiles) - Boost missiles ... - Now cruisers/BC's are pointless to fly, boost - Now battleships are pointless to fly, boost Quote: And you're gonna fix this how by nerfing lasers? The current standout is lasers. On Multiplicity, it's missiles and lasers... and missiles are getting nerfed. It's far easier to remove the standout than to boost everyone else. And I'm not foolish enough to think we're going to avoid a ridiculous nano nerf that breaks all aspects of the game. Quote: So, the megathron was overpowered 2 years ago? Oh wait i very well remember that time and it wasn't. No, but it was perceived to be (and eventually everyone got boosted beyond it's perceived value 2 years ago). Hence it has been "continuously boosted" into oblivion. Quote: You purposely delete all the parts where i explicitly stated how blaster ships suffer (even more with the new patch) I didn't disagree with those parts, and thus they weren't really worth the space in the post. If you'd like me to post +1, <<reason>>, and -1 <<reason>> there really isn't enough space in the posts. Quote: you twist my words, draw things into the discussion i never mentioned and make assumptions on what i think about those. This is not a way to have a productive discussion. I didn't twist your words, and I drew things into the conversation to make a point: lasers aren't just better than blasters. They're better than everything. Quote: I didn't say a geddon should only do 100-200dps less than a megathron. I was stating that it did. If a geddon shouldn't do 100-200 DPS less than a gankthron you either think the gankthron should be boosted (and then projectiles and then missiles and then lasers and then and then and then) or you think lasers should be nerfed. Quote: I know you are big in propaganda and rethorics and often you use that for a good reason. This was one of your more disappointing posts. Anyway, i know what my opinion is and my posting records accounts for that. Try to make me look like a torch and pitchfork swinging blaster-antichrist but that doesn't make it so. It's only disappointing because you want to focus on blasters being boosted. The game isn't as simple as that, and the big picture shows that it isn't just blasters that are feeling the pain (though they will feel it the most post patch). The big picture says that we need to at least consider nerfing lasers. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 06:50:00 - [130] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 30/08/2008 06:51:38 Originally by: Myra2007 A 3 locus rig geddon cannot even fit a full rack of mega pulse lasers without a fitting implant. Much less things like injectors or mwd. So you gotta downgrade some of the guns to dhp which sets your effective range at about 53km (2xlocus rig). Two locus rigs and one trimark, actually (due to that grid problem). It's an AWU V setup, granted, but even with those downgrades it still trashes the Megathron. Quote: You are also not doing 1000dps at that range not even if you wait for your ogres to travel the whole distance(LOL). (more like 880 with t2 wardens) Sure, drone travel time is a pain, but at any range where drone travel is a factor the Megathron is doing ZERO damage. But swap them for sentry drones if you like, you'll lose a bit of damage, but you'll still be far better than the Megathron. Quote: At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Wow, a staggering 100 dps less. That really makes up for the Megathron having less than 25% of the range. Have you stopped to think how long it takes for a Megathron's 100 dps advantage (even 200 dps!) to catch up to the damage the Armageddon will be putting on the target while the Megathron is still trying desperately to get into range? Quote: Such a geddon (i did 2 x locus, 1 x trimark) would have less ehp than the megathron (absolutely exceptional situation for this ship but you conveniently don't mention it). Who cares if it has less EHP, the Megathron's EHP "advantage" just gets used up trying to get into range. And actually I did mention it, with the same comment about how irrelevant it is. Quote: Now, i am not going to say blaster ships don't have issues because they do. And the next patch is going to make it really hurt. But how about we concentrate on making blaster ships better where they lack instead of talking about nerfing ships that work perfectly fine this year (i.e. amarr). Notice I didn't say "nerf Amarr", that would be a bad idea. I'm just pointing out how poor blaster ships are at the moment and whow desperately they need a boost. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Lol. Really, that's all the reply you deserve. If you can't see why locus rigs are so powerful with pulse lasers, you really don't have a clue how PvP works.

Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:06:00 - [131] Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:11:51 Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:08:03 The Blasters will have to be looked at. Damage may well need to be increased but the thing that is toubleing me is that without using any e-war like tracking disruptors a double webbed thorax can stil happily solo its big brother the Mega if what I hear from the test server is right. All this arguing about Mega versus Geddon is also fairly accademic unless they sort this out as the Geddon cant even fit two webs and will be in an even worse position if it gets tackled by cruiser up close. Ogre IIs can be killed pretty quick by a thorax and this is just tech 1 cruisers. Edit: I still want to know what the effect of a TP or tracking link in the extra mid is like on the mega when shooting at a webbed cruiser? so if anyone has tried please post. So they need to boost the tacking on blasters first to again make the mega King of point blank combat and then if they want to buff the damage that would be great too.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:16:00 - [132] Originally by: Birkinz All this arguing about Mega versus Geddon is also fairly accademic unless they sort this out as the Geddon cant even fit two webs and will be in an even worse position if it gets tackled by cruiser up close. Why bother with webs when you can gank the target with 900+ dps from outside web range (past 60km!)? And who cares about tackling cruisers up close, that's what your support ships are for. Solo battleships are a request for a Darwin award, so who cares if you can't deal with every possible target yourself. Your job is to put overwhelming dps on the primary, and the Armageddon does this much better than the Megathron. Quote: Ogre IIs can be killed pretty quick by a thorax and this is just tech 1 cruisers. So your Thorax wastes time killing Ogre IIs, and contributes essentially nothing to the fight while your support Drake blows it up. Quote: So they need to boost the tacking on blasters first to again make the mega King of point blank combat and then if they want to buff the damage that would be great too. Tracking won't be enough, a damage increase is necessary. Even with 100% flawless tracking, blaster ships will still suck, since the choice of "1100 dps @ 10km or less" or "1000 dps @ 60km or less" is an incredibly obvious one. The massive range problems with blasters are a massive liability, to make up for it they have to deal MASSIVE damage once they do get into range.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:28:00 - [133] Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:30:21 Merin, if you are attacking something at a gate it wont be at 60KM. Solo battleships or very small gang battleships are not a request for a Darwin award and I will love to see your face when your Geddon gets killed by a caracal. Yuo constantly argue stupid points, your fit has its uses but would lose horribly to a decent Mega in the range that I fight in and I wouldn't simply MWD towards you accross 60km. Not everyone fights in the same way in EVE and your narrow idea of how PVP works is just wrong. If BSs are no longer to be able to fight smaller targets then fine. I personally think you should be able to hit a double webbed crusier with a bs sized weapon that is all and as you have pointed out why fly the Mega if you cant do this? what is the pont of better tracking guns and a tracking bonus? I have no problem with not being able to hit frig sized targets but cruisers is an issue. Edit: WIll you please compare like wit hlike. It has been mentioned several times that yuor numbers are just wrong. A Mega up close using Ogres does more damage then you state and the Geddon at 60 does less. You then completely ignore the fact that the Geddon will have 30K less armour which is a lot. It may well suit your situation, but it does not > all.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:46:00 - [134] Originally by: Birkinz Merin, if you are attacking something at a gate it wont be at 60KM. Learn to fly your ships properly, 60km range on a gate is easy to get. And you don't really need 60km anyway, at anything over 10km the Armageddon completely dominates the Megathron. Even a 20km starting range is enough to make the Megathron worthless. Quote: Solo battleships or very small gang battleships are not a request for a Darwin award Solo =/= small gang. Small gang battleships can have proper support. And yes, it is a Darwin award offense. With a battleship's slow speed and tracking issues it's just a question of WHEN you will lose it, not if. Quote: and I will love to see your face when your Geddon gets killed by a caracal. Never going to happen, since the only way I'm flying a battleship is with support ships. And even un-supported, a Caracal will die to drones/guns unless it STARTS below 10km. Quote: Yuo constantly argue stupid points, your fit has its uses but would lose horribly to a decent Mega in the range that I fight in and I wouldn't simply MWD towards you accross 60km. Remember the part about support? You can either MWD towards me from 60km while my interceptor tackles you, or you can sit there and die without even trying. It's your call. And remember the part where the Megathron's fatal problem is GETTING to that ideal range? Your slight advantage inside 10km doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be in structure before you even get into blaster range. Quote: I personally think you should be able to hit a double webbed crusier with a bs sized weapon that is all and as you have pointed out why fly the Mega if you cant do this? what is the pont of better tracking guns and a tracking bonus? Try flying something other than Gallente. That Armageddon will hit cruisers just fine outside of the 10km blind spot. And hey, looks like you just figured out the obvious: the Megathron sucks and should never be flown. Quote: Edit: WIll you please compare like wit hlike. It has been mentioned several times that yuor numbers are just wrong. A Mega up close using Ogres does more damage then you state and the Geddon at 60 does less. You then completely ignore the fact that the Geddon will have 30K less armour which is a lot. It may well suit your situation, but it does not > all. The numbers I quoted are for a Neutron II Megathron with 3x Magstab IIs using both CNAM and Null, flown by an all-V pilot. My numbers are 100% correct. The fact that you don't like the Megathron's laughable damage "advantage" doesn't make it any bigger. And who cares about that 30k armor, you'll burn it all on the approach to GET into blaster range. By the time you become relevant in the fight, your "advantage" is gone.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:05:00 - [135] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Lol. Really, that's all the reply you deserve. If you can't see why locus rigs are so powerful with pulse lasers, you really don't have a clue how PvP works. Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. So you admit that Amarr BS's are overpowered and need a nerf? -Liang Fakeedit: I'd prefer to see a blaster and projectile boost, but tbh, Amarr/Caldari BS's are so far out there ... Either you didnt read my reply or you are making strange leaps in logic no one else follows. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:10:00 - [137] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. Fine, then how about put your amazing Amarr experience to work and tell me exactly what rigs go on an Armageddon? Tank rigs? Yeah right, your tank sucks anyway. Damage rigs? Stacking nerfed and high calibration. Grid/cap rigs? You have plenty of it. I guess maybe you're supposed to fit polycarbons, since everyone knows polycarbons are a win button?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:13:00 - [138] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. Fine, then how about put your amazing Amarr experience to work and tell me exactly what rigs go on an Armageddon? Tank rigs? Yeah right, your tank sucks anyway. Damage rigs? Stacking nerfed and high calibration. Grid/cap rigs? You have plenty of it. I guess maybe you're supposed to fit polycarbons, since everyone knows polycarbons are a win button? Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:23:00 - [139] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. Fine, that's your personal choice. I'd use an Abbadon if I wanted a buffer tank, but if you like your HP, nobody's stopping you from flying it. But this isn't some clear case of "lol, locus rigs suck". The extra HP from two more trimarks is only about 15k, which I don't consider a fair trade for losing ~25% of my range. And single rep tank? That's going to be an awesome comedy killmail...
Jonna Andromedae	Posted - 2008.08.30 10:15:00 - [140] I'll bet liang gets massive orgasm always when she starts typing a long reply.

Boobiencia Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.30 11:42:00 - [141] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. Fine, that's your personal choice. I'd use an Abbadon if I wanted a buffer tank, but if you like your HP, nobody's stopping you from flying it. But this isn't some clear case of "lol, locus rigs suck". The extra HP from two more trimarks is only about 15k, which I don't consider a fair trade for losing ~25% of my range. And single rep tank? That's going to be an awesome comedy killmail... lol? wts: sence & logic Sig removed, inappropriate content. Signature graphics may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to EVE Online. All content must be in good taste ~Saint
ShadowlordUK Portal Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:06:00 - [142] Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:14:34 1) Large Blasters will still be able to hit battleships and battle cruisers just fine after the patch. This is proportional to every other large weapon system, not the same and not in identical ways, but the ability of the mega to hit a small ship is roughly proportional, or better then any other large weapon system using ship. Of all the weapon systems, lasers in fact are the worst for hitting small ships at close range. Somebody else can provide the tracking figures for the thread if they like. 2) Anybody trying to get a boost for blasters loves to complain about range. The usefull range for gate warfare is between 10 and 30km, this puts it at perfect range for mega pulse AND neutron blasters with null ammo. Proof? 100's of kills with corp mates in megathrons that didn't even need to move the whole fight. Naturally if you do choose to fit a mwd and you do use close range ammo, everybody knows that megathrons can do ridiculous dmg. But i'd hardly count that as a downside. 3) You cant just compare one module, you have to consider the ship as a whole. Eve is balanced on a total weapon system basis. This should be obvious to anybody with even the smallest bit of common sense. The argument that the geddon as a whole should be a weaker ship then the mega because it is only a tier one has faded into insignificance due to rise in average wealth of the player base so lets set that to one side for now. In a straight comparison between the two ships, they can both hit out at 20km, the geddon can hit at the top end of the useful range being 30km, true, but then it cant hit anything orbiting it at extreme close range. Personally I've always found the dmg reduction to 0 dps at close range a more pressing issue then 0 dps at >20km because you tend to die a lot when scrambled . In terms of fittings both ships are tough to fit but I would say that the geddon is harder to fit. You have to leave a mid/low slot empty on a geddon, or fit an almost useless mod for a large number of the most effective setups. (Note: not ALL setups but a lot of them). I've never been an eft warrior but im pretty certain the mega has more base hp and compares favourably in terms of sensor strength, range and drone bay. The mega has one less low slot, true, but most people would consider the extra mid slot far more valuable then the low. So in this respect the Mega also compares favourably. Now, in my opinion it seems obvious that the ability to use Null ammo completely tips the mega into being a superiour bs overall compared to the geddon. But lets be cautious and simply admit that at the very least it isn't underpowered. In most short range fights the mega doesnt actually have to move anywhere to get into range and in long range fights, well i'd hope you would be using rails so thats kind of irrelevant. Let the attempted flames begin.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:21:00 - [143] A Neutron Megathron with Null L is a poor substitute for an Armageddon, why? Because Null L does 44 damage, compared to 55.2 on a faction multifrequency L crystal. No my friend... a Megathron has to be inside 5km to be operating at 100% capability. You can kite it by staying outside that range, but getting under the guns in a cruiser hull (as happens on Sisi) means you have one very vulnerable platform, with (virtually) no advantages over true medium range weapons. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, 1-2km, blasters still loose significant damage against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
ShadowlordUK Portal Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:35:00 - [144] Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:38:04 Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Neutron Megathron with Null L is a poor substitute for an Armageddon, why? Because Null L does 44 damage, compared to 55.2 on a faction multifrequency L crystal. No my friend... a Megathron has to be inside 5km to be operating at 100% capability. You can kite it by staying outside that range, but getting under the guns in a cruiser hull (as happens on Sisi) means you have one very vulnerable platform, with (virtually) no advantages over true medium range weapons. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, 1-2km, blasters still loose significant damage against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. I almost opened up eft to check the difference in damages, but ill leave that up to somebody who cares more. What you are saying is the Mega has reasonable dmg using null but only has wtfbbq dmg at very close range. Overall I'd say that the reduction in dmg using null is more then compensated by the extra mid and other advantages previously detailed. You mention cruisers getting under the mega's guns as if that was somehow an exclusive problem. Take a look at the geddon with megapulse and tell me what range /speed the cruisers have to be flying at to completely get under the guns? If its easier to track with mega pulse ill eat somebody else's hat. Vulnerable weapon platform? Ok.... More vulnerable then the geddon at the same extreme close range? Nope. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, mega pulse still loose significantly more damage then blasters against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. Whilst you have reasonable points, they are points that apply more to the geddon then they do to the mega. But thank you for the constructive post. I'm surprised.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:51:00 - [145] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 30/08/2008 12:54:27 The point is the Armageddon doesn't need to pull itself into range with a MWD to do it's optimal damage (e.g. the typical small gang, 30km fight after jumping through a gate), the Megathron does, and makes for a far inferior small gang platform because of it. Not a problem though as its niche is inside 10km solo, but oh-uh Sisi changes hit and it can't even do that now. As was elaborated earlier on, if you're in a small ship you need to use your speed close the range on an Armageddon to avoid getting swatted out of the skies, vs. a Megathron you use your speed to stay out of range. Post Sisi changes the Megathron can't do a damn thing at any range (hello new scramblers-killing-my-MWD-dead). -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Alpha Prime Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:06:00 - [146] Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. Go away nub. i've flown Blasterboats since eve went retail and i know blasterships is not even close to the dps that everyone dreams of. Golem has the currently highest dps of all non-caps. There is no price on true lojalty
Gevic	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:40:00 - [147] Originally by: ShadowlordUK Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:14:34 2) Anybody trying to get a boost for blasters loves to complain about range. The usefull range for gate warfare is between 10 and 30km, this puts it at perfect range for mega pulse AND neutron blasters with null ammo. Proof? 100's of kills with corp mates in megathrons that didn't even need to move the whole fight. The problem is neutron blasters with null has comparable tracking to mega pulses (which aren't too hot as you stated), lower optimal range, and lower damage than mega pulses with ANMF. Originally by: ShadowlordUK Naturally if you do choose to fit a mwd and you do use close range ammo, everybody knows that megathrons can do ridiculous dmg. But i'd hardly count that as a downside. Problem is you drink cap like water with the MWD on and you need to get within 4-5kms- no more, no less; in order to do its "ridiculous damage" which amounts to a whopping 100 dps more than what a geddon can do at 15kms. Any further and your in falloff, any closer and you have tracking problems because of the odd way the tracking forumla behaves. With large guns in general you can MISS at point blank range. Originally by: ShadowlordUK 3) You cant just compare one module, you have to consider the ship as a whole. Eve is balanced on a total weapon system basis. This should be obvious to anybody with even the smallest bit of common sense. The argument that the geddon as a whole should be a weaker ship then the mega because it is only a tier one has faded into insignificance due to rise in average wealth of the player base so lets set that to one side for now. In a straight comparison between the two ships, they can both hit out at 20km, the geddon can hit at the top end of the useful range being 30km, true, but then it cant hit anything orbiting it at extreme close range. Personally I've always found the dmg reduction to 0 dps at close range a more pressing issue then 0 dps at >20km because you tend to die a lot when scrambled . In terms of fittings both ships are tough to fit but I would say that the geddon is harder to fit. You have to leave a mid/low slot empty on a geddon, or fit an almost useless mod for a large number of the most effective setups. (Note: not ALL setups but a lot of them). I've never been an eft warrior but im pretty certain the mega has more base hp and compares favourably in terms of sensor strength, range and drone bay. Sensor range (Which is what I'm assuming your talking about) doesn't really come into play unless your trying to fire at something very far away. Which, for the sake of this thread, is somewhat irrelevant, since blasters can't even hit out to 1/8 the range the mega can lock. And if you check the drone bay on the mega and the geddon are the exact same size. 125m3. The sensor strength difference is almost negligable. Originally by: ShadowlordUK The mega has one less low slot, true, but most people would consider the extra mid slot far more valuable then the low. So in this respect the Mega also compares favourably. Now, in my opinion it seems obvious that the ability to use Null ammo completely tips the mega into being a superiour bs overall compared to the geddon. But lets be cautious and simply admit that at the very least it isn't underpowered. In most short range fights the mega doesnt actually have to move anywhere to get into range and in long range fights, well i'd hope you would be using rails so thats kind of irrelevant. Let the attempted flames begin. Depends on what you do. While the lack of a 4th mid limits the geddon somewhat (although its piddly cpu does the job just fine), 8th low allows it to fit more gank or tank than the mega. And I've already stated in the beginning why a null loaded mega fares worse off than a geddon with ANMF.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:08:00 - [148] The Geddon is a better gang ship than a Mega? Why, I never! Christ, peeps, use your **ing heads! Blasters have shit range: you all knew that when you started training for them. On the flipside, they have better tracking, are easier to fit, and use less cap than lasers, and are mounted on ships that can actually solo (well, right now they can, after patch it'll be a different story...). That's not to say I don't think all the changes are going to massively over Gallente... I'm pretty ed actually, since I fell in love with the Hyperion just days before the nano nerf was announced, and it's going to get ed over way worse than the Mega is, but still, comparing lasers to blasters is **ed: they are two different weapon systems, with two very different intended uses. If you want to be effective in gangs, train Amarr (or Caldari). If you want to solo, train Gallente. It's as simple as that, really. This reminds me of the time we Amarr ***ed before the Amarr boost that we couldn't solo with our shiny golden ships when compared to Gallente... now the situation is reversed... how dr(le! Now, what can be done to help blasters? Well, a big damage boost would be welcome, and maybe a cap use cut. Since it's going to take more time to get to the target, and once there, you're going to be doing less damage thanks to the web nerf, you need to be using less cap to make up for the increased MWD use, and you need to do more damage per hit to compensate for less hits/less quality hits.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:25:00 - [149] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I'm pretty **ed actually, since I fell in love with the Hyperion just days before the nano nerf was announced, and it's going to get **ed over way worse than the Mega is No, not really. The Hype can fit another web in its last mid and actually achieve better "effective" tracking than the Mega. -Liang Maybe I should've pointed out that I used it for solo low-sec gatecamping. If I use a second web on it, I have to give up either my MWD, my point, my cap booster, or my sensor booster... I don't relish any of these options.
Shaddowboss	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:49:00 - [150] OK guys, I need a straight answer..coming back to the game starting from scratch..with the changes proposed, would you spec gallente at this time?(nvm the giant exclamation point, this char is a gallente soldier)..or, should I just go roll another damn caldari, amarr, or minnie? And, I'm talking for pve/pvp, fleet fights,frigate to battleship level, the whole package. I need an honest, informed opinion, please.

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