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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
gfldex
392
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:What about inactive accounts?
How about chars online within the last week? That function is in game already, would be easy to implement.
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Diva Ex Machina
Son's of The Hammer The Methodical Alliance
3
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Diva Ex Machina wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:I like, or am neutral to, most of these changes. However, costs scaling up with the size of the defender corporation is absolutely insane. So, it's going to cost my tiny corporation a few billion ISK per week to declare war on a major power bloc? That's absolutely ridiculous. Member counts will be the new dec shield, with corporations creating trial accounts, filling them with characters, and padding their member counts.
If anything, the cost of war should scale inversely with member size. A large corporation declaring war against a small one should be paying proportionally more than a small corporation declaring war on a large one. The Dev indicated that trial accounts wouldn't count towards the total member number in determining cost. What about inactive accounts? I want to repeat myself: the cost of war should scale inversely with member size. A large corporation declaring war against a small one should be paying proportionally more than a small corporation declaring war on a large one. Just thing about it, it makes perfect sense. A large corporation declaring on a small one creates quite an imbalance, and should pay more to make up for the extreme numerical superiority it possesses. A small corporation should pay less because it is taking on a more difficult target, and because under the proposed system, taking on very large targets will be virtually impossible from a financial standpoint. Also, have they mentioned removing the 3-war-limit from corporations?
The subject of trial and inactive characters came up during the Q&A at the end. The Dev agreed that trial accounts shouldn't be counted in working out the total but I don't recall whether or not he said anything about inactive characters or same account alts. Maybe someone else knows?
I won't argue that the relative sizes of the two corps involved should be factored in.
ETA: I meant I don't disagree with you on that. |
Fradle
Bite Me inc Exhale.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Props to the OP for typing all that. Cheers dude, alot to think about and get excited for ^_^ |
Dirael Papier
Blackdust Citex Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:What about inactive accounts? How about chars online within the last week? That function is in game already, would be easy to implement. ^ I like that plan.
But yeah, if they only exclude trial accounts from the member count, that will do absolutely nothing to keep people from artificially boosting their corp count for a decshield.
Make tons of buddy trial accounts, each having PLEX as their reward. Recycle one PLEX to sub them all. Join them all to the corp. Eventually they'll all unsub, but they'll still be full-account members.
The minimum requirement for members that count towards war cost should be that they are currently subscribed, but this is exploitable as well.
Each account has 3 characters, so a corp requires each member to have their 2 spare characters in the corp as well. Thus the corp size is tripled at no spare cost, meaning a war dec costs about 3 times more.
Only counting members active in the last week however is interesting. Could still work around it (the above, except each member logs in all of their characters at least once per week) but this is kinda beyond what could reasonably be planned for.
TL;DR At the minimum only CURRENTLY SUBSCRIBED accounts should count towards the defender's member count as far as war costs are concerned. Only discounting trial characters does nothing. Only counting characters active within the last week is an interesting idea as well. |
gfldex
393
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ion Dogun wrote:The defender can make a war mutual only in the first 24 hours befor the war is going to start. Which highsecbased industrycorp with no interest and skills in pvp will do this?
Non, and that's the point. You may have noticed that you can define divisions for any player run corp. One of then should be Space Hurts and another Ground Hurts, shouldn't it? In the end it will benefit those carebears that survive because competition is driven out of the game. Less competition bigger margins. Bigger margins more profit. And don't we all love profits?
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
86
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Badly planed changes.
All I can say about this :(.
Still far to easy to wardec helpless industrials (ak grif industrials) as the called prices are just bad jokes (anything less then 10 BILLION/week is a joke).
And if by exident the agressor wardeced a alt-corp where the mains can fight ... the agressor can just decide to not pay and stop the war.
In addition the big problem of neutral-rep was cut out to the crim-departement <- right hand does not know what the left hand do @CCP? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
768
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Assuming that:
- CCP wants wardec fees to be more expensive - CCP wants costs to scale based on the number of war targets (members) in the target (defender) corporation - The member count only includes active, paying accounts (no trial or expired accounts)
Then the 20M + 500k/member fee is a nice idea, but is horribly unbalanced. It needs to be a diminishing returns formula where it scales up rapidly early, but then starts to scale very badly as the member count goes up into the larger bits.
There are a few choices, which meets CCP's goals without being as overpowered as linearly increasing the wardec cost based on target size.
Using Sqrt() vs CubeRoot() as the scaling method. With the sqrt() method, N=6000 would cost 77x the cost to declare N=1. That's too big of a difference. With CubeRoot(N), the N=6000 vs N=1 ratio is only 18:1. So corporation size still matters, but is not ridiculously overpowered.
a) Cost = 50M * CubeRoot(members)
N=1 starts at 50M, N=10 is 107M, N=100 is 232M, N=500 is 396M, N=2500 is 678M, N=6000 is 908M
b) Cost = 20M + (40M * CubeRoot(members))
N=1 starts at 60M, N=10 is 106M, N=100 is 206M, N=500 is 337M, N=2500 is 563M, N=6000 is 747M
Personally, I'm in favor of the (b) option, with the first number between 20M and 50M. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
Since my thread is being ignored *sniff* and this one is getting the attention, I'll dump this in here.
Glad to see there is no "wars have to be mutual" option - helps keep Eve dangerous.
Is the Merc Market place the only way to be or have an ally? And if that is the case, is there a "private" contract option available?
Blemish is a good way to help counter corp hopping, but I would also suggest that there be an ISK cost to Concord involved to be made by the individual player. A lower cost for small corp players, and a larger cost for players in large corps. Make it have a cost to hop corps beyond just a bad mark.
The cease fire situation, where after the war the war can not resume between the two for seven days, that should be extended to 14 days. Would also argue, any corp that has had a war end in the past 14 days AND they surrender for over one billion OR had a merc contract for a cost of more than one billion ISK, the cost to war dec that corp is triple in that 14 days. Helps reduce the incentive for ISK pinata.
One thing I notice is that war still lacks a definitive goal to a war. Granted that is not always easy to define. Some ideas could be, how much ISK damage inflicted - once a player defined number is reached, the war ends. Later, when planet districts are added, declare a war to claim districts or multiple districts. This could be extended to outposts, POSes at moons, etc. |
Velicia Tuoro
Light Speed Interactive The Mockers AO
39
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Quote:Wars can no longer be retracted by the aggressor when their want. Therefore more committing...
Before week is up, aggressor chooses to extend. You pay the cost to extend it. Cost can change from week to week, based on size of target corp. Hmm. This seems contradictory.
Each war runs in week cycles. You pay each week to extend it. But you can't drop the war during a cycle as the aggressor.
I.e. small corp declares war on what looks like a juicy target. They are in it for a week. Within a day of it starting, the declaring corp is suffering a lot of losses because of the allies. They want to drop the war because it is limiting their ability to do anything else, but can't. They have to wait out the full week. Senior Representative Light Speed Interactive http://www.lightspeedinteractive.net |
Alain Kinsella
97
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
Dirael Papier wrote: TL;DR At the minimum only CURRENTLY SUBSCRIBED accounts should count towards the defender's member count as far as war costs are concerned.
He confirmed this at the end of QA. I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Velicia Tuoro
Light Speed Interactive The Mockers AO
39
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Dirael Papier wrote: TL;DR At the minimum only CURRENTLY SUBSCRIBED accounts should count towards the defender's member count as far as war costs are concerned.
He confirmed this at the end of QA.
Not confirmed. Current build doesn't work this way, but they acknowledged it would be a good idea and are going to look at it. Senior Representative Light Speed Interactive http://www.lightspeedinteractive.net |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
267
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
I typed this up quite a while ago, but I think it's as relevant now as ever:
http://eve-search.com/thread/20581-1
I'll paste the important section below:
The New War Cost Formula
- Make a single entity's outgoing wars completely independent of each other. - Make no distinction in cost between wars where alliances are involved, and wars where they are not. - Potentially shorten the war duration. - Make outgoing corporate war votes instantaneous, the same way allied votes are. - Adopt a new formula that determines war cost, as follows:
War cost is determined by the amount of characters in the corporation/alliance that declares war, and balanced against the amount of players in the corporation/alliance that receives it.
The base per-character unit cost of war should be an amount of ISK that will be fairly determined by the devs and CSM. For the sake of example and simplicity, let's say that value is 1 million ISK. A 50-person corporation declaring war would have a base bill of 50 million ISK per week.
Now comes the balancing part, and it's really simple: simply multiply the base bill by the ratio of characters in the entity that declares war versus characters in the entity that is declared upon. For example, if corporation A (50 members) declares war, and corporation B receives it, then:
If corporation B has 10 members, the bill becomes [50 * (50/10)] = 250 million ISK. If corporation B has 50 members, the bill becomes [50 * (50/50)] = 50 million ISK. If corporation B has 100 members, the bill becomes [50 * (50/100)] = 25 million ISK.
Now, what happens if corporation B has incoming wars from multiple entities? Once again, the answer is simple. Simply adjust the bill by the new ratio of total characters belonging to all entities that declare versus the total character count of the receiving entity. For example, let's say corporations X (10 members) and Y (40 members) join the hostilities by declaring war on corporation B. The base bill now becomes:
If corporation B has 10 members, the bill becomes [100 * (100/10)] = 1,000 million (1 billion) ISK. If corporation B has 50 members, the bill becomes [100 * (100/50)] = 200 million ISK. If corporation B has 100 members, the bill becomes [100 * (100/100)] = 100 million ISK.
This "base bill" should then be proportionately split between corporations A, X, and Y (corporation A pays 50%, X pays 10%, and Y pays 40%).
Adunh Slavy wrote:The cease fire situation, where after the war the war can not resume between the two for seven days, that should be extended to 14 days. Would also argue, any corp that has had a war end in the past 14 days AND they surrender for over one billion OR had a merc contract for a cost of more than one billion ISK, the cost to war dec that corp is triple in that 14 days. Helps reduce the incentive for ISK pinata. This would be too easily exploited by alt corps.
Velicia Tuoro wrote:Each war runs in week cycles. You pay each week to extend it. But you can't drop the war during a cycle as the aggressor.
I.e. small corp declares war on what looks like a juicy target. They are in it for a week. Within a day of it starting, the declaring corp is suffering a lot of losses because of the allies. They want to drop the war because it is limiting their ability to do anything else, but can't. They have to wait out the full week. They should make the ability to sue for peace work in both directions.
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
86
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote: One thing I notice is that war still lacks a definitive goal to a war. Granted that is not always easy to define. Some ideas could be, how much ISK damage inflicted - once a player defined number is reached, the war ends. Later, when planet districts are added, declare a war to claim districts or multiple districts. This could be extended to outposts, POSes at moons, etc.
This sound nice.
- attacker set's goal: "war end when we destroyed POS x" (as excample) - defender has to know about to goal !!!
Now defender can decide to defend the tower OR to let it as undefended as posible to let the war end quick.
But as long as it is posible to start wardecs without any goal ... they have no deeper impact and so are meaningless. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
662
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
Velicia Tuoro wrote:
- Size of defender corp is a modifier for cost of war. More expensive for a bigger corp. You are paying for more war targets. small (5man corps) are almost never decc'd. Therefore helps expand war.
...
- Before week is up, aggressor chooses to extend. You pay the cost to extend it. Cost can change from week to week, based on size of target corp.
...
- Current cost: 20mill + 500,000 per member in target corp.
- Question about only using subscribed accounts in inflating costs. Agreed this was a good suggestion and looking at it.
First: Thank you for this excellent list. Very well put together, this is exactly what I wanted.
All of this, I really like. The overall look of these improvements is fantastic, and I really like the way CCP is taking this -- I'm very relieved. Almost everything that we discussed in the round table has already been discussed separately by CCP as something they are already looking at.
BUT
That last bit is SUPER important. If it costs more PER MEMBER in the defending corporation, we will get bloated super-corps. 500k per subscribed account, I can possibly accept; per character, absolutely not. Directors of corps will flood their member numbers with useless alts to protect themselves from incoming wars; we can't allow this to happen. In fact, even if only unique subscribed accounts work, how can you make it safe from exploits? What if three friendly corporations make a pact and put their un-used alts into each other's corps? I don't see how you can determine this number.
I have already made an argument for flat war fees here; consider it as you will. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Dirael Papier
Blackdust Citex Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Dirael Papier wrote: TL;DR At the minimum only CURRENTLY SUBSCRIBED accounts should count towards the defender's member count as far as war costs are concerned.
He confirmed this at the end of QA. The way I remember it is the concern voiced by the audience member was about non-subbed members counting towards war costs, but the presenter kept saying he liked the idea of not counting trial accounts.
From what I understand, it's hard for the presenters to hear some of the questions, so I think the war dec guy just heard the audience member ask about people making trials to boost the cost and didn't hear about unsubbed accounts boosting the cost, if that makes sense.
Basically, I think he confirmed that not counting trial accounts was a good concern and something they'd work on, but I don't think he considered the aspect of ANY unsubbed account boosting the cost. (trial or full account) |
Audrey Thinkerbolt
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sneakybustard wrote:and that would be 4billion 126million to dec goonswarm plus 50 mil ofc with current 8252 members.. In case you missed it: if you want to fight Goonswarm you can simply take your fleet to VFK. You don't have to pribe CONCORD to be able to do that. |
Vherik Askold
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Audrey Thinkerbolt wrote:Sneakybustard wrote:and that would be 4billion 126million to dec goonswarm plus 50 mil ofc with current 8252 members.. In case you missed it: if you want to fight Goonswarm you can simply take your fleet to VFK. You don't have to pribe CONCORD to be able to do that. You misunderstand. People don't want to fight goonswarm. They want a cheap way to get free kills off the random goonswarm guy that wanders into high-sec for shopping instead of using an alt. |
Spectre80
The Knights Templar GIANTSBANE.
53
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
indeed its all about ganking not fights. or do you think wardeccing has been anything else ever? |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
662
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:One thing I notice is that war still lacks a definitive goal to a war. Granted that is not always easy to define. Some ideas could be, how much ISK damage inflicted - once a player defined number is reached, the war ends. Later, when planet districts are added, declare a war to claim districts or multiple districts. This could be extended to outposts, POSes at moons, etc. That's the great thing about EVE: You don't need a definitive goal that's laid out by game mechanics for you. You fight for your own reasons; I'm sure you can find some. I've always been able to.
I would like to reiterate, I do NOT think that scaling war costs based on the size of the defender in any major way is a good idea. Half a million isk per member, absolutely not. One tenth of that, I could see POSSIBLY working, but I still don't really like it. Again, all the things I wrote about scaling war costs here are still true. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
498
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
Pro-tip: To anyone bitching that decs will be expensive, that complain unfair it might be if CCP does not institute a by-account and not per character, ect ect WHINE WHINE WHINE! NOT FAIR! NOT FAIR! I WANNA! I WANNA! LET ME SHOOT THEM!!!! ad nausem -
1. GTFO of highsec 2. Gank 3. Corp infiltration?
Oh, look at that. Still viable ways you can **** over other people or not even deal with the annoying issues of highsec. You don't need to play lol-honorable COD duels at 15 paces, this is EVE and nothing says you can't lose sec status in the process or us an alt spy....unless you are really risk adverse to still hide behind CONCORD protection except in the issue of the one corp you dec or want to /wrist yourself when AFKing a POS |
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Wai Ish'inre
Intaki Armaments
2
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
3b to dec TEST, 4b to dec Goons...
What are all the empire griefers pretending to be mercenaries going to do? Even in the height of its 'power' the 0rphanage only sent out 5-7b a week in war decs using the old pricing layout; what are groups like Rebirth, No Kings, Double Tap and all the other idiots that pad their killboards with shuttles, noob ships, and the occasional battlecruiser going to do now?
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Nomika
The Cuban Connection Baja Panti Mafia
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
what now Imperial Care-Bear Guardians? |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
472
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
wait, so all it does, is let you bring other people into the war, to help you defend. For a price of course.
Whats wrong with that? that is how it works i real life.
if you can't see the epic lolz griefing that can be done with this system, you are a fool. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
412
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 15:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The cease fire situation, where after the war the war can not resume between the two for seven days, that should be extended to 14 days. Would also argue, any corp that has had a war end in the past 14 days AND they surrender for over one billion OR had a merc contract for a cost of more than one billion ISK, the cost to war dec that corp is triple in that 14 days. Helps reduce the incentive for ISK pinata. This would be too easily exploited by alt corps.
I suppose so, by paying a billion ISK back and forth. Is that less of a concern than some poor little corp being used as an ISK faucet because they made a bad choice? |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
412
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 15:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:One thing I notice is that war still lacks a definitive goal to a war. Granted that is not always easy to define. Some ideas could be, how much ISK damage inflicted - once a player defined number is reached, the war ends. Later, when planet districts are added, declare a war to claim districts or multiple districts. This could be extended to outposts, POSes at moons, etc. That's the great thing about EVE: You don't need a definitive goal that's laid out by game mechanics for you. You fight for your own reasons; I'm sure you can find some. I've always been able to.
So make it optional, what's wrong with options? |
Azmodeus Valar
EVE University Ivy League
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 15:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
My new hobby:
Dec someone with alt corp A
Contact them with Alt corp B offering to come in and help as mercs...for a fee.
(note: I'm saying this is an upside, not a downside to the new rules. I find this idea hilarious...and potentially profitable) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
412
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 15:09:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: One thing I notice is that war still lacks a definitive goal to a war. Granted that is not always easy to define. Some ideas could be, how much ISK damage inflicted - once a player defined number is reached, the war ends. Later, when planet districts are added, declare a war to claim districts or multiple districts. This could be extended to outposts, POSes at moons, etc.
This sound nice. - attacker set's goal: "war end when we destroyed POS x" (as excample) - defender has to know about to goal !!! Now defender can decide to defend the tower OR to let it as undefended as posible to let the war end quick. But as long as it is posible to start wardecs without any goal ... they have no deeper impact and so are meaningless.
Yep, and goals could be a ruse tool as well "War ends when we get XYZ" ... but instead go attack ABC. |
Prince Kobol
276
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 15:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Audrey Thinkerbolt wrote:Sneakybustard wrote:and that would be 4billion 126million to dec goonswarm plus 50 mil ofc with current 8252 members.. In case you missed it: if you want to fight Goonswarm you can simply take your fleet to VFK. You don't have to pribe CONCORD to be able to do that.
Yes and No.
The problem arises if (and when) you have null sec alliances that also have a number of corps based in high sec.
With the proposed war dec costs being talked about those corps who are based in high sec will be virtually safe due to the cost.
You might also want to war dec a null sec alliance if you want them using major high sec trade hubs as well.
For me all these changes will do is make it safer for larger alliances which is pants |
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.03.24 15:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
I for one am finally reassured by CCP's track-record. While they're great at talk and bullet points, they consistently fail to deliver on every expansion. So no matter how bad this looks, i'm sure it'll only turn out worse.
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Liam Mirren
350
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Posted - 2012.03.24 15:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
- I'll fully agree to the base cost of 2 mil being silly low - CCP seems to agree that idiotic high cost (due to a fail mechanic atm) can be too high - I can see the logic of making target corp size a factor in cost but there needs to be a ceiling as numbers can become rediculous (just do the math on deccing EVE UNI or goons, see what happens) and you'll just introduce another opt-out - if you make target corp size an increasing factor, you can also make aggressor corp size one: if you have less than 50, 20 or 5 members (numbers are ofcourse negotiable) that could give 3 stages of lowering cost, deccing a corp while you have 50 or more members should be more expensive than when you only have 3.
I'm not sure on the ally thing, an ally can already help you out by simply deccing the aggressors. Also, (sorry if this is already mentioned somewhere) who are the devs working on this? Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
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