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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
    |
Posted - 2008.08.30 12:11:00 -
[151]
 Originally by: Malcanis
I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".
Here's mine then:
It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. No one who is of a mind to make as much isk as they can in hisec should be attracted to the NPC corperations.
I'm talking:
- Level 3 or higher mission agents won't talk to you.
- May not use research agents of any level.
- May not undock in (or board if in space):
-- Battlecruisers or higher
-- tier 2 haulers or higher
-- Freighters or capships
- May not activate a 0.0 gate from a 0.1 or higher system. This keeps NPC corpers out of 0.0, but allows them to leave if they're already there.
- May not use the contracts system
- May not place more than 5 buy orders
- May not have more than 1 industry job running or queued at any one time.
- May not activate weapons against another player unless already aggressed by that player while in hisec.
- May not activate smartbombs in hisec.
- May not receive from or give isk to another player.
- May not use the direct player trade window.
That magnitude of nerf. "OMG are you nuts?" magnitude of restrictions.
What this does is make anyone interested in any sort of competitive play or serious isk farmage self-motivated to get into a player corp as soon as they can. People can chill all they like in the NPC corps as long as they are fine with the restrictions.
Then war dec rules need to be tweeked:
- You may only join one player corp per 14 day period.
- If leaving a player corp while in the 24 hour war dec spin up time, you may not join another player corp for 3 days.
- If leaving a player corp while under an active war dec, you may not join another player corp for 7 days.
- If leaving a player corp while under the 24 hour spin up or while under an active war dec, you may rejoin that corp for 7 days.
What this does is allow people to avoid war decs if they want to, but it makes them face a real pro/con decission. You can leave the war dec'ed corp, but you are going to lose some freedoms being confined to the (now heavily restricted) NPC corps for a time. So dodging a war dec now has a real cost associated to it.
This even allows them to do the create a new corp and move everyone there maneuver, but they can only do it once per two weeks and they have to spend 3 days in the war dec'ed corp or in NPC corps to do it.
Overall, this would cause people to act differently in regards to player corperations and war decs, and be forced to face the possibility of a war dec should they want to run the higher level missions. There's more benefits to this such as no NPC suicide gankers, no NPC corp scammers, no big alliance NPC protected logistics, no NPC corp 0.0 scouts/spies, war decs a bit more meaningful, isk farmers inconvienced, etc etc. But it touches on the hisec lvl 4 mission farming as well.
In the end, it allows the players to create the necessary risk/reward balance in regards to hisec mission running. And that's the most important factor. That whatever the balance mechanism is, it be something that empowers the players to police themselves rather than some additional fake NPC control.
If the sandbox cake isn't a lie, it should always progress towards more player empowerment.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 12:21:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Malcanis on 30/08/2008 12:22:04
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".
Here's mine then:
It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. ..
I agree in all respects that this would be a better solution, but I'm more likely to ride a unicorn to my new job at the fertility clinic in a supermodel colony than we are to see such a change. It has been made extremely clear that the hi-sec carebears will not face any new restrictions. To the contrary. CCP have made their position very plain by their actions (I discount their words. Watch what someone does much more closely than what they say) - the fact that a CCP dev can, with a straight face, say "I don't see any relentless deprecation of hi-sec non-consensual PvP" shows that they are not inclined to redress the alteration in balance because they don't even believe that there has been an alteration. I know that seems incredible, because it flies in the face of the obvious facts, but his post is right here.
So IMO it's a complete waste of time trying to campaign for - or even consider - such changes.
My desire is to find a way to insulate myself from hi-sec. I'm writing it off. I no longer believe it can be salvaged as a worthwhile component of the game I wish to play.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Death Cry
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Posted - 2008.08.30 12:47:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Death Cry on 30/08/2008 12:52:58
o/
Obviously mal got married or had a recent addition to family?? (without reading anything but this post)
Astria and mal (a single jump with what u can carry in your frig...) OUTSTANDING idea..wow ... combined with Eomar's idea of abandoned stations in new region...so that teamwork would be neccesary to rebuild...restart.... so much creativity in eve players
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Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
Digital assassins
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:09:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 30/08/2008 13:09:38
Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 30/08/2008 13:09:15
Great ideas mal :) More space would be great, it gives smaller corperations or alliances the chance to go into 0.0 without running into huge powerblocks in everywhere you try and go.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:11:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Malcanis
My desire is to find a way to insulate myself from hi-sec. I'm writing it off. I no longer believe it can be salvaged as a worthwhile component of the game I wish to play.
Well, about the only way to do that would be to buff lowsec and 0.0 to the point of making hisec look like the ghettos and make it's existance meaningless or unnecessary to life in 0.0. That would actually be a shame for two major reasons:
1) As it is now, all space, from 1.0 to 0.0, is symbiotic in nature. Hisec needs 0.0 about as much as 0.0 needs hisec. People in 0.0 use people in hisec to do the grunt work - from farming the lowends and ice for them to isk farming for them so the 0.0 only loot drops have high value.
If 0.0 was buffed to the point where it wasn't worth the logistics effort of making trips to hisec, I think the game would lose quite a bit in regards to unforseen symptoms much like the cons that came out of WTZ. For instance, if people no longer feel the need to shuttle back and forth between 0.0 and hisec, camping the entry gates becomes even more boring as the rate of usage on those gates drop drastically. Those sorts of symptomatic player activity changes.
2) ISK faucets to sinks ratio would probably be even more out of control than it probably is now.
One thing that I think alot of players fail to take into account is that the Cost of Living in Eve has changed over time as well. When Venkul Mul (sorry if mispelled) drops into these threads to tell us that level 4 mission running has indeed been nerfed over time, he is right to an extent. LP rewards have indeed lost quite a bit of value and there have been other nerfs to the isk output of mission running.
However, while these changes have been happening, other things have been introduced that has raised the relative value of isk over time. The drone regions have screwed up the value progression of minerals and one symptom of that has been the general lowering of ship costs. The playerbase growing and making for more and more competition in the industrial market has probably been a factor in that as well.
I don't believe that suicide ganking had anything about it change drastically besides the cost of ships compared to their insurance payout. Why the hell is that even possible? Why isn't there some dynamic mechanism in place to guard against that situation?
Also invention decreased the cost of living in alot of ways. T2 items in general have had a drastic decrease in end isk cost.
Throw on top of that the 0.0 sovereignty wars causing people to spam POS everywhere and in effect causing a lowering in value of moon minerals adding to the overall situation of decreased general cost.
So it is my theory that the Cost of Living in Eve has decreased majorly in the past two years, and while mission running may have been nerfed several times already, it is actually increased in relative value in regards to time spent versus isk necessary to compete in Eve.
So the only thing left to be answered on that front is whether or not that situation is overall a bad thing or not.
People have complained in the past that pvp in eve is too expensive. Was it? Is it too cheap now? What's the diagnosis? When comparing the output of level 4 missions, is it too high in comparison to the "cost of pvp"? Those are the real questions to be asking.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't have a clue. But I can't help but feel like there are alot of dynamic mechanisms that are missing from Eve somehow. I'm just not smart enough to work out what they should be.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:13:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Malcanis
Now as such, if someone is crazy enough to want to do nothing more in EvE than to endlessly grind the extremely sub-par PvE content, I say more power to them.
No mention of your abhorrence for NPC-corps-as-safety-blankets there.
Quote:
The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.
No mention of NPC corps providing cover for pirates there. But you did state right there that the core issue of your argument is that other people doing exactly what you want to do are cramping your playstyle.
Quote:
Now frankly, as far as I am concerned: screw hi-sec. I don't like it. It's boring and crowded and bad men instapop my ship just for innocently accidentally shooting non-blues. You guys are welcome to it - all I want from there is skillbooks and low-priced T2.
You could, for example, issue a high buy order or contract for the skillbooks you want, in a losec/nullsec system that you have access to. No need to triple the size of the EVE universe just because you don't like them thar kids walking on yer lawn.
Quote:
So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.
No mention of NPC corps there either. So somewhere along the way the thread either digressed from the original topic, or you're making stuff up because you don't want to face the fact that the only problem you're facing is that you can't handle the way things are, and you want the game to change to suit you.
You cannot escape the relevance of hisec. You have to find ways to make hisec work for you. Buy orders for the stuff you want (there's got to be an alliance member somewhere who will bring stuff back on their next hisec hauling run, for a small fee). Contacts with newbie corps who are looking to get a toe in on the nullsec action. You know, play the whole game, not just the blowing-ships-up bit.
In EVE, you change to suit game!
|
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:15:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Death Cry
Edited by: Death Cry on 30/08/2008 12:52:58
o/
Obviously mal got married or had a recent addition to family?? (without reading anything but this post)
Astria and mal (a single jump with what u can carry in your frig...) OUTSTANDING idea..wow ... combined with Eomar's idea of abandoned stations in new region...so that teamwork would be neccesary to rebuild...restart.... so much creativity in eve players
Read more of the thread. I haven't got married or become an uncle.
I've given up. There's no point being angry about the stupid changes any more. I hate them and I think they're stupid, destructive and pointless, and I despise the whiny crybabies who want "just one more" PvP nerf, because it's never going to be enough. The more they're given, they more they want. The safer they are, the more they can accumulate. the more they accumulate, the more they have to lose. The more they have to lose, they more safety they demand. Repeat.
And I have lost considerable respect for CCP for giving in to them, and even more for the furtive, short-sighted and dishonest way they've gone about changing the game.
But as I've said before, it's their game to change. Fine. make hi-sec into a boring, unchallenging PvE wonderland. Just give me a place where I can play EvE.
There now. You happy you've got your accustomed Malcanis back?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:19:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You cannot escape the relevance of hisec. You have to find ways to make hisec work for you. Buy orders for the stuff you want (there's got to be an alliance member somewhere who will bring stuff back on their next hisec hauling run, for a small fee). Contacts with newbie corps who are looking to get a toe in on the nullsec action. You know, play the whole game, not just the blowing-ships-up bit.
Yes I know. But that's the change I'm asking for.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
In EVE, you change to suit game!
Tell that to the people who've spent the last year crying for PvP nerfs. And got their way.
Meanwhile, I am adapting. I'm using their tactic.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:21:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Malcanis
My desire is to find a way to insulate myself from hi-sec. I'm writing it off. I no longer believe it can be salvaged as a worthwhile component of the game I wish to play.
Well, about the only way to do that would be to buff lowsec and 0.0 to the point of making hisec look like the ghettos and make it's existance meaningless or unnecessary to life in 0.0. That would actually be a shame for two major reasons:
1) As it is now, all space, from 1.0 to 0.0, is symbiotic in nature. Hisec needs 0.0 about as much as 0.0 needs hisec. People in 0.0 use people in hisec to do the grunt work - from farming the lowends and ice for them to isk farming for them so the 0.0 only loot drops have high value.
If 0.0 was buffed to the point where it wasn't worth the logistics effort of making trips to hisec, I think the game would lose quite a bit in regards to unforseen symptoms much like the cons that came out of WTZ. For instance, if people no longer feel the need to shuttle back and forth between 0.0 and hisec, camping the entry gates becomes even more boring as the rate of usage on those gates drop drastically. Those sorts of symptomatic player activity changes.
2) ISK faucets to sinks ratio would probably be even more out of control than it probably is now.
One thing that I think alot of players fail to take into account is that the Cost of Living in Eve has changed over time as well. When Venkul Mul (sorry if mispelled) drops into these threads to tell us that level 4 mission running has indeed been nerfed over time, he is right to an extent. LP rewards have indeed lost quite a bit of value and there have been other nerfs to the isk output of mission running.
However, while these changes have been happening, other things have been introduced that has raised the relative value of isk over time. The drone regions have screwed up the value progression of minerals and one symptom of that has been the general lowering of ship costs. The playerbase growing and making for more and more competition in the industrial market has probably been a factor in that as well.
I don't believe that suicide ganking had anything about it change drastically besides the cost of ships compared to their insurance payout. Why the hell is that even possible? Why isn't there some dynamic mechanism in place to guard against that situation?
Also invention decreased the cost of living in alot of ways. T2 items in general have had a drastic decrease in end isk cost.
Throw on top of that the 0.0 sovereignty wars causing people to spam POS everywhere and in effect causing a lowering in value of moon minerals adding to the overall situation of decreased general cost.
So it is my theory that the Cost of Living in Eve has decreased majorly in the past two years, and while mission running may have been nerfed several times already, it is actually increased in relative value in regards to time spent versus isk necessary to compete in Eve.
So the only thing left to be answered on that front is whether or not that situation is overall a bad thing or not.
People have complained in the past that pvp in eve is too expensive. Was it? Is it too cheap now? What's the diagnosis? When comparing the output of level 4 missions, is it too high in comparison to the "cost of pvp"? Those are the real questions to be asking.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't have a clue. But I can't help but feel like there are alot of dynamic mechanisms that are missing from Eve somehow. I'm just not smart enough to work out what they should be.
I admire your optimism, but I don't share it.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:27:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".
Here's mine then:
It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. No one who is of a mind to make as much isk as they can in hisec should be attracted to the NPC corporations.
FWIW, I mostly agree with this sentiment. The nerf NPC corps discussion is not the topic of this thread though.
Malcanis's original complaint was that there are too many people in hisec running missions, competing in the same market that he is in. I don't see that nerfing NPC corps is going to help make hisec "irrelevant" to Malcanis's playstyle.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:34:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".
Here's mine then:
It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. No one who is of a mind to make as much isk as they can in hisec should be attracted to the NPC corporations.
FWIW, I mostly agree with this sentiment. The nerf NPC corps discussion is not the topic of this thread though.
Malcanis's original complaint was that there are too many people in hisec running missions, competing in the same market that he is in. I don't see that nerfing NPC corps is going to help make hisec "irrelevant" to Malcanis's playstyle.
Taking them out of NPC corps a per Roy's suggestions makes them run the (minimal) risk of war-deccing. It's not much, but it's something.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:40:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
FWIW, I mostly agree with this sentiment. The nerf NPC corps discussion is not the topic of this thread though.
Malcanis's original complaint was that there are too many people in hisec running missions, competing in the same market that he is in. I don't see that nerfing NPC corps is going to help make hisec "irrelevant" to Malcanis's playstyle.
It's relevant in that Malcanis has given up on the "fix the risk/reward of hisec missioners" situation and is now looking for a bandaid fix to work around it.
I hate those kind of fixes. I think that this recent security fix/suicide gank nerf is exactly that kind of fix. CCP is floundering around to fix a symptom of a situation that they created in the first place with the introduction of the drone regions.
"Moving forward" by constantly adding kludgey solutions to fix symptomatic situations caused by changes to fundamental elements of the game is not a good plan. We'll just end up with situations that are so contrived as to be Gordian Knot in nature.
Also, it is my opinion that Malcanis has an ulterior motive with this thread. That being to highlight how impossible it is to seperate the mission runners from the rest of the game and hence put the focus back on the original problem. So I was just assuming he was that clever and just going with it.
I could be wrong... It's happened before.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:42:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
I could be wrong... It's happened before.
Surely not...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:50:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Roy Batty68
I could be wrong... It's happened before.
Surely not...
Smart ass.  
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Sarin Adler
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 14:33:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Sarin Adler on 30/08/2008 14:35:19
Flawed logic on all the 'nerf hisec' crybabies:
1) Hypothesis: They are affecting the economy.
2) They earn too much isk.
3) But they do not spend them.
4) Because according to crybabies, they do not pewpew and do not lose ships/equipment ( do not cotnribute to economy).
5) Hence, they amass iskies which are not being injected into the economy.
6) So indeed they are not affecting economy.
But it could be that indeed they lose (destroy) equipment, and need the money to replace it. Also there may be a lot casual players that actually are not generating so much isk/minerals.
Also it can be that these guys earning money are paying GTCs with isks to mantein hundreads of alts, which are bough by people who burns iskies fast (probably cause they pewpew). Also they spend isk on high-end stuff (billions) from people who pewpew and burns the isk. So directlly or indirectlly they are contributing to economy.
---
But what about loot/salvage.
- EVE economy is like this: ISK printing (PvE activities: bounties, mission rewards, insurance payout) + materials (raw ore being mined + loot; moon minerals, salvage materials; BPC/BPO from NPCs) get injected into the system. If you print too much isk and little materials isk will drop value fast; the other way around and the ISK value will raise.
There is an optimal point were CCP want ISK value, so they tweak (they have been doing for years, missions get continually tweaked on loot tables & salvage + bounty prices); this value probably has to do with the fact that people BUY GTC amongt other things.
This has to be balanced althogether with the isk sinks (taxes, insurance when ship is not destroyed, etc.) + goods destroyer (ships being blown up). Fact is CCP has all the data recorded from the servers activity: average missions that are run-an-hour, isk generated, minerals that enter the market; goods that are being destroyed, etc. So instead of all that people talking abotu stuff they don't know and data they don't have, let CCP do their job because they actually can figure things much better than you & me can, amongst other things because they have all the data you and me do not.
In definitive, stop using flawed arguments and fix your perception of the game.
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Trathen
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 14:46:00 -
[166]
While I do think Level 4 Missions could use a tweak, I do think Malcanis is being melodramatic. After all, ninja salvaging exists as an (unintentional) consequence for clustering around a popular high-quality agent. We definitely don't have enough ninja salvagers.
I think an odd problem with missions is that they don't resemble combat in the least. If there is a giant group of pirates in deadspace that a single battleship can clean up, why didn't CONCORD take care of it? How can CONCORD get through the acceleration gates so fast? It just seems silly that the "scariest" NPC pirate corps are clearly ******ed. I remember back in my pen 'n' paper GM'ing days (yeah, I did it), I had a little booklet with the greatest advice: "Make the enemies smart, don't just increase their stats and your players will have fun." Missions are sad in so many ways. But hey, easy ISK.
Let's propose an alternate solution to the risk/reward problem. Shouldn't it be reasonable that every mission runner but the best should lose a ship at least to NPCs now and then? That would not be easy to implement, though.
_ |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 14:53:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Sarin Adler
Edited by: Sarin Adler on 30/08/2008 14:35:19
Flawed logic on all the 'nerf hisec' crybabies:
1) Hypothesis: They are affecting the economy.
2) They earn too much isk.
3) But they do not spend them.
4) Because according to crybabies, they do not pewpew and do not lose ships/equipment ( do not cotnribute to economy).
5) Hence, they amass iskies which are not being injected into the economy.
6) So indeed they are not affecting economy.
But it could be that indeed they lose (destroy) equipment, and need the money to replace it. Also there may be a lot casual players that actually are not generating so much isk/minerals.
Also it can be that these guys earning money are paying GTCs with isks to mantein hundreads of alts, which are bough by people who burns iskies fast (probably cause they pewpew). Also they spend isk on high-end stuff (billions) from people who pewpew and burns the isk. So directlly or indirectlly they are contributing to economy.
---
But what about loot/salvage.
- EVE economy is like this: ISK printing (PvE activities: bounties, mission rewards, insurance payout) + materials (raw ore being mined + loot; moon minerals, salvage materials; BPC/BPO from NPCs) get injected into the system. If you print too much isk and little materials isk will drop value fast; the other way around and the ISK value will raise.
There is an optimal point were CCP want ISK value, so they tweak (they have been doing for years, missions get continually tweaked on loot tables & salvage + bounty prices); this value probably has to do with the fact that people BUY GTC amongt other things.
This has to be balanced althogether with the isk sinks (taxes, insurance when ship is not destroyed, etc.) + goods destroyer (ships being blown up). Fact is CCP has all the data recorded from the servers activity: average missions that are run-an-hour, isk generated, minerals that enter the market; goods that are being destroyed, etc. So instead of all that people talking abotu stuff they don't know and data they don't have, let CCP do their job because they actually can figure things much better than you & me can, amongst other things because they have all the data you and me do not.
In definitive, stop using flawed arguments and fix your perception of the game.
Where on earth do you get "3) But they do not spend them." from what I've said? Since your post depends on that point, I'd like to know where you got it from? Not from me, that's for sure.
They do spend the ISK. That's the problem. They spend it on faction mods I'd like to fit my ships with. They spend it on pirate alts that don't even try to ransom, making lo-sec the worthless wasteland that it is. They spend it on supporting their alliance mains, trivialising 0.0 warfare, the supposed "end game". I know for a fact that all these things are true from personal experience. So when you try to deny them, you're either simply unaware of them, or being flat-out dishonest.
And it's fine for them to do all these thing. Don't you get it? That's not the issue. The part that is NOT fine is that they're effectively almost untouchable, and they're about to become even more untouchable.
It seems like I have to explain this basic point to every new person who comes into one of my threads with this you hate carebears/you're just jealous/leave me alone/you're a filthy pirate who should GTFO bullshit. I'm not really a pirate. I'm not jealous. I just despise people who demand NPC advantages and then act like it makes them somehow morally superior.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 14:58:00 -
[168]
Oh, and if you're going to call me "melodramatic" for asking for an expansion of available space so that I can do my thing and you can do your, what would you call the many, many people who have said "NERFING MISSIONS WILL KILL EVE BECAUSE 80% OF THE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE!!!!111eleventyBBQ"?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Trathen
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 15:18:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Malcanis
Oh, and if you're going to call me "melodramatic" for asking for an expansion of available space so that I can do my thing and you can do your, what would you call the many, many people who have said "NERFING MISSIONS WILL KILL EVE BECAUSE 80% OF THE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE!!!!111eleventyBBQ"?
Carebears are always drama queens. It comes with the package.
I have to agree with roybatty regarding isolated 0.0... the connection between 0.0 and empire is one of the few things keeping 0.0 and some low-sec pipes alive because that connection keeps people moving. I definitely don't think something resembling a separate 0.0 server would help. I also think mission running is only imbalanced compared to miners. The richest players I know are definitely not career mission runners.
I'd say if there is one easy fix to the predictable mission running problem, it would be to expand the radius of possible deadspace areas from 1 adjacent system to up to 4+ away. Not only would mission runners lose time jumping to the area (and again with a salvage boat), it is also more likely it will end up in low-sec. Getting anything more than an adjacent system is so rare, you can just abandon those.
_ |
Sarin Adler
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 15:22:00 -
[170]
First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.
So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.
The fact is, you can't change people's attitude. If it was for me, alts wouldn't be allowed in the game, but that's impossible for a number of reasons: limitation on the skill system being the most important, but the second one, is 'people allways want more' and its natural: they want the safest way to make isks without facing consequences, etc. I can't blame them for that, as logn as the game makes it possible & legal.
I'm NOT against more space, in all fairness, my post was directed to a lot of people who is flawed when cries nerf hi-sec, not directlly an answeer to the OP. Hey, I indeed want more systems & space. But while I agree that as a player its natural to ask want you want for, you have to get into devs place and ask yourself if they really want it. Or better, you have to ask how many players want it, because I think that this status quo is acepted by the majority of the playerbase.
Anyway, to be more constructive in your post, don't want to turn it off, but it does not matter how many buffer zones you put between these new sectors, how long the trip is, etc. it still weill be affected by Jita economic status. Because networks naturally develop, there will still be alliances who conquer space & monopolize trade routes, etc.
What you want in practice is EVE with different rules, this is impractical unless you shard the servers, as long as there is connections your 'far away' economy will still be affected by central economy. More if there are not enough players interested to create local economies w/o interaction with central markets.
Best luck anyway, but don't hope any of this will change things.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:24:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Malcanis
Tell that to the people who've spent the last year crying for PvP nerfs. And got their way.
Meanwhile, I am adapting. I'm using their tactic.
You do realize you just admitted to my claim that this is nothing more than a pirate revenge thread don't you?
.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:32:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Malcanis
Tell that to the people who've spent the last year crying for PvP nerfs. And got their way.
Meanwhile, I am adapting. I'm using their tactic.
You do realize you just admitted to my claim that this is nothing more than a pirate revenge thread don't you?
.
(1) I'm not a pirate
(2) How is my request "revenge"? How would it hurt anyone?
(3) The only thing I have to "admit" to is wasting time on you. A mistake I will not repeat.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:38:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Sarin Adler
First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.
So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.
Er, yes, I have thought that. That's the basis of the thread.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Tuleingel
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:43:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Malcanis
Taking them out of NPC corps a per Roy's suggestions makes them run the (minimal) risk of war-deccing. It's not much, but it's something.
In ideal world pirates would actually feel the results of being outlaws, corp thieves would be hunted thru EVE and carebears would cry when wardecced. This character is my out of corp wartime hauling alt (1h training for bestower). We (in corp) have also several out of corp freighter alts (one of them in this account). Those alts are anonymous, our members know only the name of character in corp who will then forward the items needed to proper character, no spy can ever know names of those alts as they are never mentioned. Not even between directors. War is mild annoyance in EVE, not something disrupting your logisticks or life, even if you are carebear. In this case meaning the effort of setting up 2 private contracts instead of one to get your stuff moved during war.
NPC corps themselves are not the problem, alts are.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:48:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sarin Adler
First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.
So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.
Er, yes, I have thought that. That's the basis of the thread.
If you read the stuff Malcanis has written in other threads then this thread would make more sense.
It's some sort of forum warfare to screw with Empire to get back at the carebears that live there.
He admitted to it a few posts above.
Malcanis is mad over the suggested security changes.
This is a revenge thread.
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Sarin Adler
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:54:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Tuleingel
Originally by: Malcanis
Taking them out of NPC corps a per Roy's suggestions makes them run the (minimal) risk of war-deccing. It's not much, but it's something.
In ideal world pirates would actually feel the results of being outlaws, corp thieves would be hunted thru EVE and carebears would cry when wardecced. This character is my out of corp wartime hauling alt (1h training for bestower). We (in corp) have also several out of corp freighter alts (one of them in this account). Those alts are anonymous, our members know only the name of character in corp who will then forward the items needed to proper character, no spy can ever know names of those alts as they are never mentioned. Not even between directors. War is mild annoyance in EVE, not something disrupting your logisticks or life, even if you are carebear. In this case meaning the effort of setting up 2 private contracts instead of one to get your stuff moved during war.
NPC corps themselves are not the problem, alts are.
This. Alts are the root of all the evil, that and 'GTC for ISK' (to be fair, w/o these RMT would be far worse, so I can't blame CCP for implementing GTC for ISK). And even a lot of us use them to experience differnt parts of the game w/o having to wait 10 years, but at least not hiding in NPC corps would help.
I'm for all would support nerfing NPC corps strongly and some control over transfers of money between chars. Difficult to implement w/o screwing tho.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 15:54:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sarin Adler
First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.
So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.
Er, yes, I have thought that. That's the basis of the thread.
If you read the stuff Malcanis has written in other threads then this thread would make more sense.
It's some sort of forum warfare to screw with Empire to get back at the carebears that live there.
He admitted to it a few posts above.
Malcanis is mad over the suggested security changes.
This is a revenge thread.
.
Harsh words from an isk-seller.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Aaron Mirrorsaver
Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.08.30 16:00:00 -
[178]
i support the OP
------
GBC old timer. AKA "the dude"
I like your sig, I hope someday to be also referred to as ''the dude'' - Gneeznow
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.30 16:20:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
If you read the stuff Malcanis has written in other threads then this thread would make more sense.
It's some sort of forum warfare to screw with Empire to get back at the carebears that live there.
He admitted to it a few posts above.
Malcanis is mad over the suggested security changes.
This is a revenge thread.
And you spamming this in every similar thread makes you what? A paranoid carebear afraid that his playstyle might get nerfed even though you celebrate the nerfing of someone elses playstyle?
While I'm not going to offer confirmation on your theories to what Malcanis' motivations might be, I have to ask this:
So what if it is a "pirate revenge thread"?
Does that somehow invalidate the position? It shouldn't. Eve is a competitive game on many levels and the continued support of those who want to avoid competition should be questioned regardless from what quarter of the playerbase that question comes from.
If anything it simply highlights the fact that you are probably one of these "I should be left alone if I leave other people alone" types that are the current cancer of Eve when contrasted against what the core design of the game used to appear to be.
Holding CCP to task in that regard is a very natural reaction. Wanting to know what the direction of the game is and whether or not the removal of competition is part of the long term plan for the game is something everyone should be interested in.
So **** off with your attempted ad hominem attacks and let the discussions run. Because, if nothing else, your unimaginative and repetitive attacks are getting boring.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Capot
Lyonesse.
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.30 18:32:00 -
[180]
wtf is wrong with german opera?
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