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Cryxx
Minmatar
Blindsight Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 08:39:00 -
[1]
Right, now after having played the game for some 16 days I thought I would throw a post here about my initial thoughts about the game, forum, community and stuff like that.
And yes, I'm aware that many posts in this thread proberbly will contain comments like "first" "lol" "no u!" or other such mindless additions, but I can ignore that ;)
Now first impressions is proberbly the same as 90% or more who just started playing eve, that it's a very different MMO from others I've tried and by this I don't only mean the way skill works, that it's a game about spaceships and stuff like that, but also how the players behave.
The first big thing I noticed was the discussion about if eve is a PVE or PVP game, and here the term "carebear" gets thrown around alot and it seems, usually has a negative meaning.
The way I understand it, carebear is, in its most basic form, a name for a non-pvp'er and when used by pvp'ers it usually, as I said, gets a negative meaning which to me sound a bit like "hardcore" pvpers believing that people who dont pvp, arent playing the game as they should, hence, theyre doing it wrong.
Now it could just be me not being used to how things are done in eve, but this is frankly very silly, theres are tons of ways to play an MMO and non of em is the right way so I really don't see why people chosing not to PVP have to be rediculed (sp) in this manor.
Second thing I noticed is the higher difficulty in the game, compared to other MMOs, EVE is almost playing MMOs on hardmode and I love this fact, it's nice playing a game thats not holding my hand and guiding me through it till the end like I needed someone else to tell me how to put my pants on in the morning.
One problem I see with this is also one of the things I like about the game, the "if you can't take it, go play something else" attitude, I'm talking about stuff like "the only real place you're safe is in a station" "you will get podded" and phrases like that, which to me is kinda awsome, cause it adds to the "no limits" type gameplay but it also seems that some people cant handle this as they almost go out of their way to make the experience as misserable for others players as they can, which is really really sad.
The last thing, is the forums, I don't really get the player attitude here, were all here to talk and discuss a game we all enjoy and pay to play, so why the hostile attitude? yes I know some people post stupid and uninformative or useless posts, but whats wrong with ignoring the post or just saying something constructive, why the need to redicule the one writing it?
Don't take this as complaining or whining, I just don't get it, I'm a member of a ton of forums and I must admit, I've never seen this form of attitude on a board before.
I have no idea what people reading this post can take away from it, but hope I'll get some useful and interesting replies to some of the above thoughts.
Well thats it for now, I'll add more if I come up with some.
Fly safe
Cryxx
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I like to loot it loot it |
Arvald
Caldari
Ninjas N Pirates
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.29 08:44:00 -
[2]
tldr but if your whining about anything the stfu gtfo gbtw and so on and so fourth, and if you like the game then yay..........that is all
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Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.08.29 09:02:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cailais on 29/08/2008 09:03:44
Hiya Cryxx and welcome to EVE.
The 'carebear' hate you're noticing here is that in the very early days of EVE 'carebearing' was essentially impossible. CONCORD NPC protection didnt exist, missions paid awful rewards and the closest thing you could do to 'carebearing' was mining.
EVEs changed a great deal since those early days and increasingly its become almost as profitable if not more profitable to 'carebear' than not.
Many veterans are appaled by this change over the years and see more and more 'protection' being provided to players - so EVE becomes safer but looses that hard edge which they joined for in the first place.
Comparisons to WOW are natural here as WOW has no 'loss' mechanics: you simply cant go backwards. Some feel, rightly or wrongly, that CCP are moving towards the WOW model in order to increase their subscriber base - and theyre not very happy about it.
Because historicaly 'player killers' in EVE were seen as the 'hard core' element players now are prepared to go to extreme measures to inflict harm on others - in essence they believe 'making life miserable for others' is how the vets behaved and want to emulate this behaviour.
All this kinda spills over onto the forums where the eternal argument of wether EVE should be harder or softer (in terms of the player experience) rages on.
Have fun tho ;)
C.
 Originally by: Tarminic
Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.08.29 09:15:00 -
[4]
Quote:
but it also seems that some people cant handle this as they almost go out of their way to make the experience as misserable for others players as they can, which is really really sad.
Not really, really sad. It might be a little sad, but not 'really, really'. It's an accepted part of the game. If you were around at the outset of the game or years prior to this, you would have encountered a far harsher game world.
EVE has always been setup as a PVP game, whether you like it or not.
Quote:
theres are tons of ways to play an MMO and non of em is the right way
Well, this sort of defeats any argument you made prior to or make after. People wanna play 'hardcore' PVP and ridicule others who don't - fine. That's actually one of the aforementioned 'tons' of ways.
Also, I hold to the suspicion that 'hardcore' PVPers actually are some of the biggest carebears in the game. To fund PVP generally requires alot of ISK. They've gotta get it somewhere.
Otherwise, you make some valid points.
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.29 09:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cryxx
The last thing, is the forums, I don't really get the player attitude here, were all here to talk and discuss a game we all enjoy and pay to play, so why the hostile attitude?
That would be about 95% of the posters, but there are some who will post a bit more constructive.
The EVE forums is infested with different types of cliques, often very different but they share one thing in common, and thats the lack of ability to post anythng other than knee jerk comments ('adapt or die, can I have your stuff, omg whiner, carebear, wanna be pirate' and so on that have been repeated ad nauseam.
These comments are usually replies to posts that arein anyway critical to what resides in their little fanboy hearts. I suspect this is in fact because most of them are either North American or 14 years old, probably a combination of both. No offense if you are american, but Xbox live uses would know what I'm talking about.
In anycase, there are a lot of mature members with good posts, and I hope you continue to play EVE.
 Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:24:00 -
[6]
IBTT
When i crank down on 'carebears' and say that they are playing it wrong i feel that they are just playing EvE like its a single player game with a chat space, but with that said not all PvE-focused players dont player interact they do missions in gang, some even do missions in low sec (where player interaction isnt just holding hands). And where miners form fleets to handle mining ops, this i dont frown upon what i frown upon is sitting afk in a .8 belt mining away or doing mission semi-afk solo.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:28:00 -
[7]
The forums are full of people who have invested a lot in this game, and are faced with devs nerfing their investments, and other players saying they shouldn't have those things in the first place.
Not to mention conflicting playstyle choices.
This makes for heated discussions, with some people turning up for the heat rather than the discussion.
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DesuSigs |
Fakespace
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cryxx
"the only real place you're safe is in a station"
this only apply until you open the market window, contract window... err... just make that
"as long as all you do is stare at the screen", as soon as you do anything you are NOT safe :)
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:05:00 -
[9]
I believe that Cialsi and Crumplecorn said it perfectly.
I add that there is alot of passion within the average EVE player. But passion can be shown in many different ways 
Originally by: Fakespace
Originally by: Cryxx
"the only real place you're safe is in a station"
this only apply until you open the market window, contract window... err... just make that
"as long as all you do is stare at the screen", as soon as you do anything you are NOT safe :)
That is great  
Slade
Originally by: Crumplecorn
NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine.
DesuSigs
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:10:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Glengrant on 29/08/2008 11:12:20
Hi Cryxx,
welcome to EVE.
The first thing to understand is that this forum is *not* representative of the general population in the actual game.
You'll find EVE players on average much friendlier and reasonable than what you can find here on the forum. The threads here are populated by the most whining and disgruntled subsection of the playerbase.
When I say friendlier - I mean as a person - the majority might still try to kill you as soon as you leave CONCORD protected space - either because they are pirates or you entered the territory of an alliance and simply protect their space busy shooting any non-blue on sight.
Yes - EVE is hardcore - and proud of it. There's (IMHO) no other game like it.
The whole silly debate between pvp and pve is exactly that - silly. EVE is *obviously* (look at what's there and gets used folks) about *both*.
The whole carebear ("just let me mine") thing is partly meant as an insult and partly tongue-in-cheek. Don't take it personal. Especially as you are not at all unlikely to use it yourself on others in a few months when you sit in your ship somewhere out in 0.0 and happily look down upon empire dwellers. ;-)
The "if you can't take it - just leave" attitude is easily explained as "don't stay and ask for EVE to become WoW in space". Take it or leave it. Fair enough IMHO. If somebody didn't read the warnings and descriptions properly and finds himself in a game that's not suited to his/her enjoyment - it's not the games fault. EVE is meant as a (comparatively) challenging envorinment. Those that came to EVE (and those who designed it) did so exactly because they find non-/pvp-zones and meanless-death lame.
Here you will find a player driven, highly competitive market (a form of pvp BTW), a death penalty that hurts a bit and therefore makes combat actually exciting and a relatively mature (GD notwithstanding ;-) ) playerbase.
For those who come to EVE and stay that is exactly what makes it enjoyable. For some it's just not the right game.
---
Save the forum: Think before you post.
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Sythyss
Twilight Trading
Twilight Imperium
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Glengrant
Edited by: Glengrant on 29/08/2008 11:12:20
Hi Cryxx,
welcome to EVE.
The first thing to understand is that this forum is *not* representative of the general population in the actual game.
You'll find EVE players on average much friendlier and reasonable than what you can find here on the forum. The threads here are populated by the most whining and disgruntled subsection of the playerbase.
When I say friendlier - I mean as a person - the majority might still try to kill you as soon as you leave CONCORD protected space - either because they are pirates or you entered the territory of an alliance and simply protect their space busy shooting any non-blue on sight.
Yes - EVE is hardcore - and proud of it. There's (IMHO) no other game like it.
The whole silly debate between pvp and pve is exactly that - silly. EVE is *obviously* (look at what's there and gets used folks) about *both*.
The whole carebear ("just let me mine") thing is partly meant as an insult and partly tongue-in-cheek. Don't take it personal. Especially as you are not at all unlikely to use it yourself on others in a few months when you sit in your ship somewhere out in 0.0 and happily look down upon empire dwellers. ;-)
The "if you can't take it - just leave" attitude is easily explained as "don't stay and ask for EVE to become WoW in space". Take it or leave it. Fair enough IMHO. If somebody didn't read the warnings and descriptions properly and finds himself in a game that's not suited to his/her enjoyment - it's not the games fault. EVE is meant as a (comparatively) challenging envorinment. Those that came to EVE (and those who designed it) did so exactly because they find non-/pvp-zones and meanless-death lame.
Here you will find a player driven, highly competitive market (a form of pvp BTW), a death penalty that hurts a bit and therefore makes combat actually exciting and a relatively mature (GD notwithstanding ;-) ) playerbase.
For those who come to EVE and stay that is exactly what makes it enjoyable. For some it's just not the right game.
couldn't have said it better myself 
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Public EvE Mumble Server -- Free Killboard/Forum/Voice Comm Hosting; Websites at a price |
Siberys
Gallente
Nebula Sharks
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:54:00 -
[12]
Well, EVE does have a difficulty curve like running into tungsten wall while traveling at supersonic speeds.
Oh right, and it's a sandbox, no matter what my fuctarded friends say, and that means it's not "u n00b, u dun has 1337 skillz! Frakking n00b!" instead it's "So you did that with that ship? Sounds cool, maybe I should try that sometime."
That means that the community IMO is a lot more tolerant than say... WoW's. And that means EVE starts out a lot friendlier.
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Melokai
Amarr
ADAMA Corps
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cryxx
rediculed (sp) in this manor.
No manors 'til Ambulation I'm afraid.
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Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cryxx
The first big thing I noticed was the discussion about if eve is a PVE or PVP game, and here the term "carebear" gets thrown around alot and it seems, usually has a negative meaning.
The way I understand it, carebear is, in its most basic form, a name for a non-pvp'er and when used by pvp'ers it usually, as I said, gets a negative meaning which to me sound a bit like "hardcore" pvpers believing that people who dont pvp, arent playing the game as they should, hence, theyre doing it wrong.
Now it could just be me not being used to how things are done in eve, but this is frankly very silly, theres are tons of ways to play an MMO and non of em is the right way so I really don't see why people chosing not to PVP have to be rediculed (sp) in this manor.
Part of the reason for the 'carebear hate' is that Eve is has open, non-consensual PvP. It's part of what makes the game great, yet there are people who don't merely stop at not looking for PvP but will do everything they can to actively avoid it, as well as often requesting the removal of non-consensual PvP and whining a lot if they do get killed. Understandably this doesn't go down well with a lot of players who enjoy the game because it has risk, even many players who don't actively PvP themselves.
Then, of course, you have the 13 year old smacktalking pirates high on sugar who can't understand why someone doesn't want to be ganked and laughed at in local by them. |
Shortfused
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:28:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shortfused on 29/08/2008 12:28:37
Fact is that you have 250,000 players and most of them have their own vieuw of the game.
Some can respect the fact others have a different vieuw, some can't.
Some of those that can't play the game still but in a sort of overdrive mode, some of those just want to hurt those who don't play their game.
So all in all I just say, do your own thing because in the end you pay for your own subscription and thus are entitled to do whatever you want to do.
If you prefer to gank anyone whom you can gank and get away with so be it, if you prefer to suck every rock dry to make your wealth allso fine. In the end you have no other choice then to accept that everyone is doing their own thing, be it solo or be it in groups or fleets.
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Hysenthlay
Minmatar
Marines Of A New Dawn
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:19:00 -
[16]
You will never find a more wretched hive of s****and villainy...
I love EVE. And its players.
____________________________
Silflay Hraka U Embleer Rah. |
5pinDizzy
Amarr
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:28:00 -
[17]
To be honest nearly all the people who think they're hardcore are full of shit,
0.0 is as much carebear land as highsec, and that's about 90% of the eve population right there.
To me someone who is hardcore is someone that lives in lowsec with only a few friends maybe who goes out looking for trouble every day, and doesn't have an alt in highsec or nullsec.
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Xavier Zedicus
Priory of Zorrabed
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:30:00 -
[18]
yes eve-online definatly has a harsh learning curve. |
Spectre3353
Gallente
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hysenthlay
You will never find a more wretched hive of s****and villainy...
I love EVE. And its players.
HAN SHOT FIRST
-----
My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
My Ransom Board: http://www.pcransomboard.com/ |
Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Xavier Zedicus
yes eve-online definatly has a harsh learning curve.
Cue this classic.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:51:00 -
[21]
EVE only has a harsh learning curve if you expect to learn it all fast like most games.
In reality it is shallow but really really really long, with just a little bit of a steep bit right at the beginning.
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DesuSigs |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:06:00 -
[22]
Carebears
I think the term is overused and generally misused. To me it means anyone who wishes for there to be more barriers between player interaction instead of less. It means anyone who would rather complain to CCP about other players actions instead of trying to counter those actions themselves.
Miners, industrialists, mission runners, etc aren't necessarily carebears. PvPer's want to think they're immune to the label. Nope, they can be big old carebears as well. Some of the biggest, whiniest ones live in 0.0 imo.
Halfwits will label anything that isn't blowing shit up as "carebear crap". That's stupid and limiting by definition. Ignore them. Carebear isn't so much about what you do, but more about your attitude while you do whatever it is you do.
Griefing
It's dangerous to be quick to apply the term griefing to things in Eve. Baiting a noob on their first day? Sure, griefing. Bumping some hulk clear to heck and gone just for laughs? Sure, griefing.
But there are many here who I really think have their own comfort in mind when they say crap like, "save the noobs from the griefers" in regards to other topics besides the can baiting and pointless bumping.
Eve is a game of competition and player interaction. Just because one doesn't like one variety of competition doesn't mean they should be able to label it griefing in order to demonize someone elses legitimate style of play. In my opinion, people who post about "griefing" probably shouldn't be playing Eve in the first place.
GTFO attitude
Eve is obviously a different kind of game compared to WoW or EQ or what have you. The primary content in Eve is provided by other players. Eve's NPC AI isn't interesting at all, so why in the heck should Eve be thought of as another WoW type game? Bottom line, it shouldn't.
So given that other players are where the really interesting content is going to come from in Eve, it is important that freedom of play is jealously guarded so that these interesting things are possible. However, there are people who come to this game having broken their MMO cherry on WoW type game designs and they feel out of their comfort zone in Eve. They don't like other players being able to affect their game play.
So here's the really crazy part. Instead of leaving Eve and trying to find a game that better suits them, these people often try and "fix" Eve. It's mind boggling sometimes. Here's a game that's done nothing but grow since inception with relatively the same harsh atmosphere, but little Billy is going to show up 5 years down the line and, "save us all from the nasty griefer gameplay"???
And to make it worse, some of these nice people are really convinced that they are doing us and CCP a favor. "Otherwise Eve will surely die soon".
I think alot of people are used to the software industry trying to make One-Size-Fits-All designs, so if they see something that is wrong in their eyes, they are doing the devs a favor by pointing it out.
However, Eve is definately a niche game. It obviously wasn't originally designed to please the masses. So what I think it comes down to is most people who come to Eve and have trouble coming to terms with the fact that maybe the game just isn't for them, are really just shocked by the concept that something was designed purposefully to exclude their type of gaming attitude. Kind of a blow to the ego, I suppose. /shrug
Of course, explaining all that is a pita. Easier to just say GB2WoW.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Ranamar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
EVE only has a harsh learning curve if you expect to learn it all fast like most games.
In reality it is shallow but really really really long, with just a little bit of a steep bit right at the beginning.
I showed EVE-Mon to a friend of mine because she had showed me a WOW skilltree planner. I definitely got a "woah, that's much more complicated" reaction out of her, and she's a CS major... (Yes, there are girls in CS; yes, I know them.)
That said, I'm a consummate engineer, so numbers and stats are something I will study carefully, too. 
Point is, there is a steep learning curve at the beginning, and it happens to coincide with the first couple days. However, I will admit I'm still pointing out random stuff to my not-so-numbercrunching corpmates.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
To be honest nearly all the people who think they're hardcore are full of shit,
0.0 is as much carebear land as highsec, and that's about 90% of the eve population right there.
To me someone who is hardcore is someone that lives in lowsec with only a few friends maybe who goes out looking for trouble every day, and doesn't have an alt in highsec or nullsec.
o/ :)
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Takima Templar
7th Batavian Squadron
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:11:00 -
[25]
To the OP I had somewhat the same experiences. Starting 3 months ago, I actually tried EVE out (after some other MMO's) because it was 'more hardcore'. I'm loving the game sofar but I agree on a couple of things.
First off, as it appears the player base is abit older then other MMO's (or so I did read), so I acpected a mature approach to the game by the players. Abit of a 'take it like a man' approach if you will. Sofar I have to say that's not realy the case. However forums and general chat channels ingame are not always an good indicater for that.
Second is abit of the attitude towards newer player (by some). 'Like all the new players cause the changes made.' Like if new players would complain about nano's or suicide ganking. And then there is the false expectancy that 'all new players are carebears'. Well I think you will find most new players complaining alot less. just my 2 cents
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Maxpie
Carrion Crows
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:18:00 -
[26]
OP, you are pretty much right on point with everything you said. Don't take the forums as representative of the Eve population in general though. I think you will find the people you meet in-game vary greatly and, for the most part just want to play the game, not wax philosophical about carebears and pvp.
Yes, Eve has real pvp, but I also know many players who consider Eve the world's biggest screensaver with a chat function. You can play solo, you can avoid pvp, you can pvp, etc. That's the beauty of it, you can do whatever you want. Or as the man once said, "you can do anything, though you can't do everything."
My suggestion is, enjoy Eve but don't be afraid to try all of the various things it has to offer. As you point out, it is a complex and deep game. Delve into it, it's worth it. You may find you prefer pvp or you may prefer mining. Don't worry what the forum losers think, it's your subscription fee, enjoy it.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
NeoTheo
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 29/08/2008 14:21:21
Originally by: Cryxx
Fly safe
Cryxx
gotta ask, i know its a common name, but if i said the words farstar/learn2play would you know what i ment?
if so, welcome bro, assuming thats you.
;)
and welcome to eve.
;)
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
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MaDeX
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:44:00 -
[28]
welcome you shlag :S
Mate, the only thing to remember is a) its a game b) have fun !
Other than that ignore some forum posts :D
(especially mine)
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Belmarduk
Amarr
de Prieure
Four Elements
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:25:00 -
[29]
Welcome to Eve.
Eve is a Sandbox and must stay that way - the day it stops being a Sandbox the game starts dieing. eg the day it is 100% safe except being docked at station.
Greetings Belmarduk
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:26:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/08/2008 15:26:42
No! There's no new players to EVE! Everyone on these forums has billions of iskies, flies titans and has been to places no-one of the other people have ever dreamed of, not even those who've been to places other people haven't dreamed of!
Joking aside, welcome to EVE, insure your stuff, buckle up and enjoy the ride, it's gonna be a bumpy one.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
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