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Deimi
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:07:00 -
[1]
I really have to address some basic things here, and the direction of this game as a whole.
The more we got to twink with, the more the game have gotten unbalanced.
I might sound like a dullard, but I think I would have been more happy if we had been left with a set of basic options on how to equip and modify our characters and ships.
Think of the mecha universe where you have a set of firm rules on what to equip and use. And as a matter of fact Eve have some similarities, as for 'heat' for example.
And that is the advantage of having a rulebook for a gaming universe.
Eve lacks one such and over and over breaks with the rules that have been put down for the game. But that should not, and must not happen, if the 'natural laws' allow something in Eve - then that should be possible from then on. What we can have here is an arms race, yes where the countermeasure is found. And that is not changing the playfield, not at all.
***Please do not EVER change the rule of the game, do you want to sit down in a game of poker where the rules change as you play?***
The answer is obvious, it would be absurd!
So we get 3 new slots to twink the ships in new ways.
It does only take a while before it is obvious this have upset the balance of the game in new ways.
most noted one is the speed that can be achieved with the combination of skill, implant, overdrive MWD, engine housing & auxiliary thrusters and whatever, and one that is addressed in a blog on this website.
Lo and behold, no mentioning of the almost unkillable setup that I personally call the 'sillytank'.
Its achieved in a similar manner by employing certain modules, of where a few don't seem that popular actually.
Well all this brews down to one thing, and that is - please don't introduce something that will wreck the gameplay.
Everyone should have the chance to kill his enemy, as things are with these sillytwinks - that option were removed!
Add to that the corps and alliances that have created a
(What, the 'blob' being a problem? Please get real, at least that is a sign of teamplay. And that's good. Its the only chance of getting one of those sillytwinks. But most of the time they simply log anyhow.)
The consequence of that soon appeared. And now the devs starts to complain about suicide kills.
These suicide kills have sometimes not been aimed at the player they actually wanted to get at, but at his corp or alliance.
But again, it was the only option left for those players to get even.
So this is my message to the devs of Eve. Don't try to fix things that wasn't broken.
And for crying out loud:
Where no rules are set in stone, don't introduce items and options that makes the game unplayable from what it was intended to be.
Yes lets get back to day one here. This game was about building your warmachine, equip it, and then go to test your skills against others. Sadly, I cant say that is what Eve is about nowadays.
Can we get a second server with 'Eve-classic' instead? I would migrate rightoff to get out of this mess and even better, be able to enjoy a game I really like.
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Tijalda
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:13:00 -
[2]
true words
/signed
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/08/2008 18:05:05
I like the way eve is simply because its so varied, set rules and glass ceilings are what you get in WOW and other less adventurous games.
The very fact that you can boost summat and have real impact on others is a huge attraction to a player, while the crappy pointless grind of all other mmo games makes them worthless imho and to remove that ability and freedom from eve would ruin it.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Strill on 29/08/2008 19:00:05
 Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
I like the way eve is simply because its so varied, set rules and glass ceilings are what you get in WOW and other less adventurous games.
Exactly. I used to play WoW, but no matter how I set my character up, every single setup just seemed exactly the same. You couldn't, for example, go for a gank setup at the expense of survivability because the game is set up so that you get way more total stat points if you spread your stats out evenly than if you focus them in one stat. So if you do try to go for a gank setup you end up getting +25% damage at the cost of -90% to everything else. They had every stat so meticulously locked down that no matter what you put stats in, your character ended up being exactly the same. I think that's probably why WoW is so popular. You end up with a "good" character no matter what you do because there's no sandbox element at all. WoW is just good at making you think there's a sandbox by having a lot of different items that all do the same thing.
And correspondingly, that's what I like about EVE. You can min/max to your heart's content, and that's encouraged rather than discouraged. It's also something I think the devs are confused about. They encourage min/maxing and sandbox play, and yet they're constantly jumping on anything that ends up being beyond what they wanted. It's like they don't know what they're trying to accomplish.
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Deimi
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Posted - 2008.08.29 23:28:00 -
[5]
Re: sophisticatedlimabean
Well the problem here and what I gave examples of, is that this 'real impact' have been lost.
As things are you cant compete with the sillytwinks, a situation I in no way blame the ultra twinking players for. They only use the tools they have been given by CCP, and would be stupid not to. Now the problem is here, it need to be adressed.
In addition to that I like to add a paragraph that went lost in my original post.
"Add to that the corps and alliances that have created a... " below I add the rest what would have been said.
.....a situation where they locked down all gates with all kinds of deployable webbing and warpscrambling equipment guarding them with their ships 24/7.
This have caused 95% of the players to remain and play Eve in empire space as one PVE game instead.
Fact is that the PVE part of Eve is rather weak, anyone who have been running missions have seen that they are quite a variation of the same basic theme and not unusual the same storyline only with increasingly harder targets.
This is so unrewarding compared to the potential interaction we could have here.
And we used to have that, when we roamed together and meeting the various corporations and groups out there, sometimes we were waved along, sometimes we had to fight, and at a few times we had to pay squeeze for free passage.
What we have today is a game where that playfield have been completely removed, and now 95% sit in the start area for ages and too many leave after a while, disillusioned that the game wasnt more than that.
Where's the exploration today? Gone! Where is the interaction, that except the interaction of coming trough a gate to be blown up in 4 seconds flat?
As for gameplay that is a step backwards to a situation similar to WW1 and the trenchwar. That is to devolve the idea of a game about lightspeed fast spaceships into a static situation where nothing change and a majority are left to play year after year in the starting area of Eve's equivalent of "Elwynn Forest" (Wow), "Newland" (AO) or "Taborea" (EQ).
So back then we interacted!! We had fun!! Even today I see a few of the oldtimers and send them a greeting. And no hard feelings, if I was blown up, or had to blow up them. Both things could happen. Whats left of that today? To play in the starting grounds forever doing the same mission with a minor variation over and over?
No thank you!
CCP need to get a grip on things or even more will leave without seeing or having experienced what Eve used to offer.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.30 08:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Deimi
-snip-
That's probably why they added faction warfare.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.30 09:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Deimi
snipped due to length.
I read what you posted and tbh i think its a little naive while wishing the game to be a little easier.
Everybody had to skill up and take hits on the way, some improved and some got angry and want the game reduced in difficulty to compensate for there currant lack of skill.
Reducing the skill so noobs can be overly effective is a bad idea as if ppl specialize they can be effective in a gang in 0.0 within 3- 6 months and work up in ship class from there. But if you remove or lower the standard every 6 month or older player gets the shaft and ppl are only upto 6 months old for 6 months of their eve life so why screw them for the rest of there eve life just cos they cannot be uber pwn mobiles for the first 6 months?.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Deimi
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Posted - 2008.08.30 12:29:00 -
[8]
Re: sophisticatedlimabean
Easier, I never said a word about easy!
I am quite confused on how you could misread what I been writing here as anything such.
It was never easy, and I don't want the lukewarm dull and boring existence in empire space!
You were always assaulted, by super NPC battleships, bt various corps and pirates.
A game which tested your skills to the limit, constantly stalked and attacked - fun fun fun!
The safe and yes "easy" life in imperial space is what bore me to death.
Its the lockdown of the game, where CCP have introduced modules that automatically lock down all important gates. Only requiring a small core crew of ultra twinked ships and players to guard them.
What I object against is that we have lost all mobility and now are denied the interesting parts of the game, and two: That the unbalancing of twink items have made it impossible to burst out of the cage we are locked into.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.30 12:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deimi
Re: sophisticatedlimabean
What I object against is that we have lost all mobility and now are denied the interesting parts of the game, and two: That the unbalancing of twink items have made it impossible to burst out of the cage we are locked into.
Ive noticed no limits tbh unless you count those that ppl have either imposed on themselves or because they have not trained the proper skills yet.
Would you mind clarifying.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Deimi
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Posted - 2008.09.01 12:59:00 -
[10]
Hello again sophisticatedlimabean and sorry for the late reply.
Skills, well you are partially right saying so.
I have been here from the start of the game, and my main have spent considerable time on industry and science skills.
Even so, I also got more than 20 no 5's in weapon skills and 4 years in game, I know some good setups from communicating by others and my own experience.
But with the nerfs in modules they have introduced there is no way possible for me to have a chance.
So and here is my point about this part.
That another player can buy himself invulnerability by investing enormous amounts of money into his character.
In a game where we have no top level, the developers would have to be very careful not to let unkillable supercharacters come around. And they are not interested in the wellbeing of the game or social gaming either.
(Can we have Stavros of Moo back here please, he went around ganking also - but then spent time on IRC with the devs giving input on how to make Eve a better game to play. I tend to think the deployable stuff was one idea he supported, but again, he couldnt forsee the other changes that came later.)
Yet, that is exactly what happened in Eve - and one of my conserns.
Now combine this with the lockdown of the gates to 0 space.
The introduction of the warpbubble and various platforms are old, and perhaps was a good idea of the time.
But when this is combined with the buying and selling of characters, so a player who have a fat wallet can buy one with 'the right stuff'.
Then he buys ingame ISK and buys all the items already mentioned in one earlier post of mine.
And the combination of implants and the 'upgrade hardpoints' together with the deployable modules have brought us to a point where not even a fleet will break out into free space.
That unless we first loose several major ships in the attempt, and so we are unable to create a fleet to get trough since people dont want to loose ships and have gotten too used to the safe existence in imperial space.
Me? I dont mind loosing a ship or two, but I will only do the attempt to play the game if I have a standing chance of succeeding.
Right now that doesn't seem possible due to the imbalances here.
(I took a break from Eve and played Tabula Rasa for a while, to my surprise I did encounter some oldtimers from Eve who had left disappointed from the very imbalances I have adressed in this thread. So I am not alone about my views here.)
And as for the proposed changes seen in the developers blog, I can only say it appear to be too little and too late. Wait, I will even go a step further and question the sanity of gimping web modules!
If we manage to gather another fleet in yet another attempt to reach 0 space, I demand we at least will have warpscramblers and functional webbers so we can lock down the ultratwinks.
Well thank you for responding to my posts sophisticatedlimabean I think we can leave this one for the time being and see what is said in other threads.
The bottom line is as you seen in my reply, is that I am not that hopeful. |
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.01 14:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Murina on 01/09/2008 14:22:01
Originally by: Deimi
That another player can buy himself invulnerability by investing enormous amounts of money into his character.
In a game where we have no top level, the developers would have to be very careful not to let unkillable supercharacters come around. And they are not interested in the wellbeing of the game or social gaming either.
I can become unkillable just by not undocking, but anything else i undock in no matter how much i spend on it or how good my skills are or what implants i use can be killed. The more isk i spend and skills i train the harder to kill i get but everything that can undock or be in space that a player can fly can be killed at the moment.
PS: im sophisticatedlimabeans cyno alt, my main is currently doing time in the forum sin bin for telling somebody to f off on caod. |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2008.09.01 14:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Torothanax on 01/09/2008 14:23:12
While I don't always like the changes to the game, they are the reason I continue to play. I truely believe the devs care about thier game and don't make changes unless they think they will improve it.
Besides improving the game, change is realistic. Tactics and weapons change over time. If people figure out how to make one ship type or play style too powerful, the game changes to compensate. Just as a real military would find a counter to whatever threatens to defeat them.
Survival of the fittest. Adapt or die. |
lebrata
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Posted - 2008.09.01 14:35:00 -
[13]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/09/2008 14:41:56
Originally by: Torothanax
While I don't always like the changes to the game, they are the reason I continue to play. I truely believe the devs care about thier game and don't make changes unless they think they will improve it.
Besides improving the game, change is realistic. Tactics and weapons change over time. If people figure out how to make one ship type or play style too powerful, the game changes to compensate. Just as a real military would find a counter to whatever threatens to defeat them.
Survival of the fittest. Adapt or die.
Military add new or improve their weapons, items, ships to beat the enemy, they do not some how get god to nerf entire types of fighting and styles pvp .
The issue is the fact that the fittest (or in eve terms those with the better training and pvp/combat skills) already do survive and rise to the top while the less skilled do not and pile up losses, remember the same modules and ships are available to every player with the skills.
The nerfs serve ccp to keep the less skilled happy (for a while) and keep them in the game by giving them something to blame and removing it so they think their eve life will be better.
Trust me bud, soon enough if the nerf goes through they will continue to lose ships and look for something new to blame (cloaks or sniping cloakers maybe) and ccp will again throw them a bone/nerf that they think will make things all better.
CCP should always add summat or boost an existing item or both (like a military actually does), nerfing and reducing sucks. |
xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2008.09.01 21:44:00 -
[14]
I gotta say i agree with the OP. Way back when i started playing eve it was war anywhere you went it was war. It was kill or be killed eat or be eaten so to speak. It was HARSH it was UNFORGIVING it was absolutely amazing. I miss it, its one of the reasons im rarely active now adays sure i keep my account alive keep up with whats going on and all but i spend my free time doing other more entertaining things now, what little time i have anyway. I don't want a game that caters to me or anyone else i want a game thats take it or leave, love it or hate it preferably both at the same time.
Back in the day you used to undock and sweat, the constant feel of adrenaline pumping through you, now EvE is more of a friendly hi how ya doing game where you are either insta'd or you dont leave empire. Before no where was safe, ever, yet you always had a chance. I personally do not want new ships / mods in game until the game is harsh again, the more you add the more you cater and give in and say oh we need to rebalance this and that etc etc.... its old i miss the days of Tomb nerfing things into oblivion because he could no matter what you thought, and you either adapted and overcame or tried to adapt and failed. Now its not about adaptation its about catering and fixing things that are NOT broken.
Long story and 2 walls of text later it can be summed up as;
1) stop adding stuff
2) remember tomb and be like him
3) in being like Tomb force ppl to adapt and overcome
4) stop catering to the mob
5) bring back the harshness that i fell in love with
I think thats what the op was trying to convey and what many other vet's of eve desire.
just my .02 isk |
Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.02 09:43:00 -
[15]
i think as eve built up in popularity ccp began to expand and the opinioin on how thing should be became more varied . with more groups pulling the game in different directions eve has just been turning in circles .
i think in reality this is the deal breaker for long time players . we have been watching the same issues with gameplay and performance getting pushed back in favour of gimmicks . there are many issues with eve that now span years and continue to this day while considerable resources and effort are expended on new ships and graphics . we have had mmany tweaks and fixes over the years but they have usually been of mmarginal benefit and usually have come more than a year after the issue was first noticed and the issue raised .
sometimes at work when my boss asks me when something will be done i say maybe next year as a joke ... too bad i can't just throw down a "soon tm" and and leave it at that |
Deimi
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Posted - 2008.09.30 12:20:00 -
[16]
Sorry for reawakening my old thread, but I had the time to look back at it now on patch day.
Main reason for doing so is reading the last two posters who did sum it up so well they managed to say better! Than what I failed at communicating clearly.
So yes xOm3gAx, that is what I tried to say here, and you cut to the core of it.
Dirtee Girl:
You are right also, CCP have broken with their own original philosophy by later attempting to streamline Eve for a mass market.
But that was too little to late, Eve will always be a game for a certain kind of "elite" player. You either to be intelligent enough to get over the initial learning curve, and then either figure out the market or how to be good at Pve / Pvp to survive here.
So getting in is hard, and not for everyone, yet there are enough of those around to give them good business.
But making changes to make the game suit average joe's is the worst move CCP could ever do. They cant and should not try to compete on the wow-ified market of the other games. |
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