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Author	Topic
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.30 05:05:00 - [31] Its going to be funny one year from now with everyone flying amarr.
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.30 05:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Corstaad Its going to be funny one year from now with everyone flying amarr. I'm sure down the line maybe 6 months lasers will be nerfed here and some other race will be boosted there and the races will be juggled about as usual. @ those saying the amarr bs need speed mods, I disagree their bs's function best as plated 'do-or-die' monsters, they can hit as far as they need with scorch, the dont need to get into gun range like the hyper / mega or to keep distance like the tempest. Personally I've never fit a mwd on an amarr bs it causes too much cap problems and wont save me anyway if I get webbed.
Cpt Constantinus Celestial Janissaries	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Gneeznow Originally by: Corstaad Its going to be funny one year from now with everyone flying amarr. I'm sure down the line maybe 6 months lasers will be nerfed here and some other race will be boosted there and the races will be juggled about as usual. @ those saying the amarr bs need speed mods, I disagree their bs's function best as plated 'do-or-die' monsters, they can hit as far as they need with scorch, the dont need to get into gun range like the hyper / mega or to keep distance like the tempest. Personally I've never fit a mwd on an amarr bs it causes too much cap problems and wont save me anyway if I get webbed. The mwd is helpfull for faster aligning, getting out of bubbles ( in 0.0 ), getting into rr range and most likely several other things i havent thought about yet.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.30 18:02:00 - [34] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 30/08/2008 18:02:15 Originally by: Deva Blackfire 1. MWDs are a must, nano nerf or no. They help you evade DD, warp faster (10 second MWD warps), reappraoch gates, burn away/towards enemy, burn into RR range and prolly tons of other stuff I never said anything else. And that's exactly why they're broken; their bonuses and penalties are just out there, and they have become a deciding factor that eliminates much of the element of tactics from the game. You either use them, or you lose. This is exactly why CCP are considering a speed nerf. 'Cept, of course, they're targeting the wrong things, mostly. Originally by: Deva Blackfire 2. ever heard of RR battleship setups? Because from your post i think you never met em. Check out TRI board and you will maybe see how 20 RR bs can take on 30 normal BS and win easily. You don't play the RRs as forwards. Not unless you have at least two repping each other. And even then it's a bit doubtful. Rather have three or four. Originally by: Deva Blackfire 3. in "fast moving effective PVP team" people are responsible not only for themselves but also for rest of the gang. Again - check TRI boards. Losing DPS ship in nanogang doesnt mean "sorry chap you died you wont get mails we will". It often means you lack DPS to break RR cycles/cap ship tanks thus denying kills for whole gang and in case of rapiers/huginns also endangering rest of gangmates. You don't go into a PvP fight and just click and fire. Originally by: Deva Blackfire 4. the "amarr BS use all the cap so they need 10 logistics to transfer cap" bullcrap is annoying. Except for abaddon and absolution (yeah, abso) other amarr ships are pretty cap stable. Only those two drain their capacitor way too fast while firing. Even on geddon in most of the fights i dont need to inject unless im running remote rep or trying to neut some targets (also depending if i use hvy neut or rr in spare slot). Abaddon and Absolution are perfect gatecamp/bullrush ships, and frequently used as bait and shields. Reason enough. But then we have other bullet magnets playing into it as well. Maelstroms, Sleipnirs and Claymores most significantly. Not that they won't all phase out now that Minmatar's being shot down...
kor anon Amarr Grail Seekers	Posted - 2008.08.30 18:03:00 - [35] I want amarr to be underpowered again, i enjoyed the challenge. Maybe i go cross train minmatar at some point
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:15:00 - [36] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky are you going to say the Absol is better then the Sleph now? Do it! Do it! It will be better, indeed. Well... a more accurate statement would be "less shit than the Slep".
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:40:00 - [37] On topic: If you're planning to train, and fly, BS-level hardware, be prepared to sink in major cash for the first couple of ships, because you will lose them in a firefight, as you learn how each behaves under duress. In hindsight, I hope you have sufficient PvP experience to know the basics, if not, I'd suggest hopping into a PvP-fit Thorax and go scare a BC half to death. Trust me, if the Thorax can be this good, you can expect more from the Mega, albeit with BS-size gait and heft. Amarr are very strong in the BC-BS department, but totally suffer in the smaller ship classes. Amarr are all big, burly tank-gankers, no fuss, no finesse. In standard MMO nomenclature the Amarr ship lineup are akin to those guys in heavy armor weilding those big hammers/axes around taking the hits for the team. They dont have anything fancy under their belt, but what they can do, they can do in spades. -
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:49:00 - [38] Lasers have been awesome for a very long time now, long before the EM resist rebalancing, but it wasn't until around that point that people even bothered to take note. A few years back, it was relatively common for Amarr pilots to cross train for projectile guns (or for minmatar pilots to train for amarr ships and keep using projectiles) because Amarr hulls were designed with its cap usage in mind and naturally had higher amounts of cap (while minmatar have lower than average cap), and cap free weapons gave them an advantage. The weapon systems themselves haven't really changed that much, but no one would even consider putting projectiles on Amarr ships today. Only the state of the game and mindset of the playerbase has changed. NOS peaked in popularity, it was nerfed forcing people to turn to neuts or nothing, which forced cap injectors to become a required midslot on pretty much every ship just like the mwd (it's not required on all ship like the mwd is, but it's close). With cap injectors, suddenly the cap usage on lasers is no longer a "penalty" and lasers become the turret of choice, or they would have if the playerbase hadn't already dismissed them as a weapon system. The playerbase didn't catch on to this until the em resist patch, which was a relatively minor tweak to a few overall damage %s. Players claim they buffed amarr and some even make arguments the buff was too good and amarr are overpowered now. The "buff" was inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, all it really did was make the player base look at energy turrets again as they existed in the current state of the game, and they realized that they're pretty pimp atm. I would definitely consider any long term skill training with the nano-nerf in mind. It's coming, it's long overdue, and it's going to fundamentally alter the state of the game. The changes are designed to do more than just correct the imbalances with nanoships, it's going to correct a great deal of other imbalances that were created due to the previous attempts to fix speed or prevent it from becoming too powerful. Once the game is back to where it was designed to be, then the developers will be able to look at the various mechanics and determine if nerfs/buffs are needed. No more 10k+ HACs is just the obvious benefit of the nerf, it's going to fix alot more than that. Ships/weapons/mods that will be given their role back, be put back to where they need to be, or become viable once again after the patch: Interceptors interdictors Assault Frigates HACs Gallente Recons/EAFs t1 frigates/cruisers Target Painting Sensor Damps All Turrets, Drones, Missiles Shield vs armor tanking These stem from modifications to the relative speeds of these ships, from the new warp scrambler mechanic, the change in mwding usage, and from the new web effectiveness. Webs were as good as they were because they were originally intended as the counter to nanoing, unfortunately the extreme high end of nanoing became some rediculous even 40km range 90% webs were becoming ineffective at countering them. The 10km webs only real use was in allowing ships that shouldn't have been to do so, the power to apply their damage to ships that were never designed to survive it. Specifically, Blasters & blaster megas vs the smaller ship classes. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:50:00 - [39] Blasters have been benefiting from webs for a very very long time, so most will see this as a blaster nerf. Blasters are balanced in that they do tremendous dps but at limited range. Currently with MWD and webs, there's little stopping a megathron from closing on a nearby target, even webbed his inertia carries him, webbing the target, and obliterating it. Currently Projectiles, specifically Large Projectiles, are simply broken. In truth the problems apply to all projectiles but it's most noticable with large (and XL) projectile turrets. ACs have less optimal than blasters, less damage, and are designed to fight in falloff instead. With the current state of the game, the falloff mechanics are rediculously punitive and projectiles are simply stupid. However once blaster ships no longer have a gurantee to keep their targets in range and therefore their limited engagement range becomes a factor, and once overall ship speed is reduced so that the differences in tracking of the various turrets actually matter, projectiles, particularly Autocannons (best tracking in game), will atleast be able to function as they were designed. So hybrids will take a hit relative to projectiles, unfortunately it's going to be seen as a "nerf" to hybrids rather than a boost to projectiles, when all they're really doing is putting the two weapon systems back to where they were designed to be at. Energy Turrets are going to be seen as maintaining their strength so they will dominate the other two. This is probably true, except Amarr are already designed with the lowest sensor strengths and least amount of mids, so will be the first race to unilaterally drop their propulsion mod and rely on their range to be effective. Their limited mid slots are already needed for a cap injector by default and will need atleast 1 eccm to have a chance to cope with enemy jamming (ie falcons). This means that lasers will maintain their high dps range options but will be the most limited in modifying their engagement ranges. Pulses, scorch etc seems like it will remain on top, until the state of the game is "jump into a mobile bubble, hostile fleet @100km, all amarr ships down before they can slowboat back to the gate, much less to within range to begin hitting with their leet dps pulses." Drones and missiles, which nanoships are already immune to and non-nanos already receive the full effects from, can now be modified/buffed/nerfed based on their stats, speed, etc, to apply their damage/effects correctly to the full range of ship sizes. Currently, the best target painter in the game is the enemy turning on his MWD, unfortunately the other benefit of the MWD (Speed) complete counteracts the penalty. Without MWDs being on by default on smaller ship classes, Target painters, the laughing stock minmatar racial ECM, will actually become effective. It should be noted that outside of a halo set, skirmish link, or minmatar titan, there is no counter to being target painted. Likewise, the sig radius penalty for shield tanking , such as shield buffer tanking on recon/hacs, will actually matter, the same way that armor tankers already take a hit on mobility/speed (plates/trimarks). Despite all the whining of nano***s, the speed-nerf is one of the most well thought out changes to the game we've seen in some time. It's going to do far more than simply balance (ie eliminate) nanoships, it's going to restore the nature of combat back to where it was intended to be. Will it fix everything? Probably not, no one can know until it hits tq, but what it will do is put everything back into perspective, so that the things that are still broken can actually be fixed. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:03:00 - [40] You started off okay. I was agreeing with what you said about blasters needing webs, projectiles being broken, yada yada. Then you veered off course... Quote: projectiles, particularly Autocannons (best tracking in game), will atleast be able to function as they were designed. So hybrids will take a hit relative to projectiles, unfortunately it's going to be seen as a "nerf" to hybrids rather than a boost to projectiles, when all they're really doing is putting the two weapon systems back to where they were designed to be at. At least with large weapons, that's ridiculous. Take a look at 800mm tracking. Take a look at neutron blaster tracking. At best the tracking is equal. At worst, the Megathron (a fairly common PVP BS) stomps the Minmatar's tracking due to the ship bonus. Yes, projectiles get range over blasters, but they get out damaged by blasters out to 24km or so, at which point tracking means a bit less. Blasters track at LEAST as well as AC's, and on a Megathron track significantly better. Beyond 24km, Minmatar damage starts top drop off from its already low number, reaching a measely 38.5% at optimal + falloff. Lasers will continue to outdamage projectiles at any range. Not only that, but if blasters can't track up close, you can bet projectiles with their equal/lower tracking won't be able to track up close either. They will still be worse than blasters up close. They will still be worse than lasers at range. Saying this gives them their proper role is just ridiculous. Quote: MWDs being on by default on smaller ship classes, Target painters, the laughing stock minmatar racial ECM, will actually become effective. Just a minor point. MWD's aren't going to disappear unless you are playing EVE inside Stab Wounds's head. A few more ships will start fitting AB's, but don't think the "M for Mandatory" is going away. Also, painters aren't worthless at the moment due to their effect on tracking. I'll agree they don't do much for missiles. Quote: the speed-nerf is one of the most well thought out changes to the game we've seen in some time At this point in my mind you lost every ounce of your credibility in my eyes, but at least you ended by giving me a good laugh.

Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:26:00 - [41] I fully endorse this well thought out speed nerf. Everyone knows passive tanked hogs and missle spam is the new pvp leet.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:37:00 - [42] Originally by: Rajere Blasters, Projectiles, and Lasers. Blasters are getting a nerf, Projectiles a boost, and Lasers are staying the same. Sigh, I'm torn. I can utterly prove this statement wrong (because it's very easy), but it would take an hour or two of research to put the setups, graphs, and implications together for you. Simply put, I've done this research. Blasters are getting a nerf, Minmatar ships are getting a nerf, and lasers (and some laser ships) are getting a boost. Blaster nerfs: - Web nerf means that ships are going 4x as fast as they were in the effective blaster engagement range (0.1x speed to 0.4x speed) - Mass nerfs mean that blaster ships accelerate slower and are slower overall - Slower blaster ships mean that they deal less damage in the course of a fight (they don't all start at optimal), and they take more damage while getting into range Projectile/Minmatar nerfs: - Mass changes mean that the ships accelerate slower, take more damage, yada yada yada - Slower and less agile Matari ships (all of them on Multi right now) mean that kiting is that much less effective (and in many cases where it should not be, impossible). - The Web nerf means that ships are going 4x as fast as they were in Hail engagement range (Hail does significantly more damage than EMP but has severe tracking/range penalties). - The udder (MOO!) removal of nano'ing affects no race more than Minmatar. Many of our decent ships are built around speed, agility, and webs. The Matari ships worth flying after this patch can be counted on one hand (and two if you're willing to accept slight inferiority). Laser Boosts: - Nano ships are not currently able to out track pulse lasers. With the total removal of nano ships from the game, no ship will out track lasers at their preferred range. - Laser ships deal very high raw damage (~90% of an equivalent blaster ship), and EM is typically one of the lowest resists on any ship (even armor tanks). - Laser ships are ranged damage dealers, and the range game is far more important when everyone is both slower and less agile. - Amarrian ships have higher sensor strength than Matari ships (Your ECCM argument really falls flat here). - Many Laser ships are actually lighter on test than on TQ. This means that they're both more agile and faster, and also means that they are going to be able to hold their range/DPS advantage even longer (and quite possibly indefinitely). Well, that's a short list, and I've reached the end of the time I promised myself that I'd take for this post. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:56:00 - [43] Edited by: Rajere on 30/08/2008 21:00:51 you probably should have finished reading, the part where I said that this wouldn't fix everything, it won't even fix most things, it would simply enable the things that are broken to be fixed. for example ACs vs Blasters. Yeah, they don't scale properly from medium to large regarding tracking, duh. ACs don't scale appropriately on any of the stats, because large ACs are broken. correcting the stats so that the damage/tracking/falloff etc is in line with the design and Large ACs are more effective than blasters sooner than 24km won't change anything, because until you remove the ability for webs to ensure the target is always within blaster Optimal, it doesn't matter how well ACs do outside of it. ACs will still be broken compared to blasters. regarding lasers alty Mcalt guy, you probably should have actually read what I said. Are lasers still going to be awesome? probably. If you had paid attention, lasers have been this good for a long time, it wasn't until the state of the game changed that people realized it. If the change goes through and combat remains identical to how it is today, then if lasers are still overpowered then they'll just bring them in line next patch. The point is, the nano-changes are going to change the way fights happen in eve, and it's pointless to compare statistics using any of the current assumptions. There's lot of predictions out there about what combat will be like after the changes go through, mostly from the emo-nano*** crew with their doom and gloom, all of which are easily counterable and dismissed. But we cannot assume the current state of play will matter at all, it's entirely possible 3 months from now no one will care about close range turret comparisons as they will be completely irrelevant to the state of play at that time. 90% of your list can easily be discredited, btw, i'll give you some time to edit your post, but really you should have actually paid attention to what was being said instead of emorage posting. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:11:00 - [44] Originally by: Aleus Stygian You don't play the RRs as forwards. Not unless you have at least two repping each other. And even then it's a bit doubtful. Rather have three or four. Do you not get it? Every gang BS (assuming not a sniper gang, and even then, try to crap one on) should have at least 1 large rem rep, tempest, phoon, domi, raven, scorp can all happily fit 2, mega, geddon, hyperion (7 ions dps > 8 electrons if its small gang dual LAR fit) can all fit one. 'Forwards' as you term them fit large buffer tanks and a remote rep if it fits (abaddon/rokh are often used in this role due to resist bonus and large base HP, so no rem rep there, without compromising dps, which is why they are not often used in rem rep gangs, plate geddon/armor tanked ravens being preferred. Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Deva Blackfire 3. in "fast moving effective PVP team" people are responsible not only for themselves but also for rest of the gang. Again - check TRI boards. Losing DPS ship in nanogang doesnt mean "sorry chap you died you wont get mails we will". It often means you lack DPS to break RR cycles/cap ship tanks thus denying kills for whole gang and in case of rapiers/huginns also endangering rest of gangmates. You don't go into a PvP fight and just click and fire. That is a non sequitur Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Deva Blackfire 4. the "amarr BS use all the cap so they need 10 logistics to transfer cap" bullcrap is annoying. Except for abaddon and absolution (yeah, abso) other amarr ships are pretty cap stable. Only those two drain their capacitor way too fast while firing. Even on geddon in most of the fights i dont need to inject unless im running remote rep or trying to neut some targets (also depending if i use hvy neut or rr in spare slot). Abaddon and Absolution are perfect gatecamp/bullrush ships, and frequently used as bait and shields. Reason enough. But then we have other bullet magnets playing into it as well. Maelstroms, Sleipnirs and Claymores most significantly. Not that they won't all phase out now that Minmatar's being shot down... absolution is not a good gatecamping ship, it is outclassed by a tanked BS in every way other than tracking, and resists for remote repping (difference being something like 400 dps tanked per rem rep on a BS vs 450 on an abso, and given it cannot fit its own remote rep, its not valuable, damnation however is another matter ). Neither of you are really aiding the OP here, at least not from what I can make out - you cannot run a significant active tank on an abaddon while shooting, you can run a single rep assisting a plate tank for a while, but that is pushing it, and if you are being neuted you would be better just running your guns. Aleus your points about the minmatar points doesn't tie in to what Deva was saying or to what you were saying yourself just next to it .
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Rajere you probably should have finished reading, the part where I said that this wouldn't fix everything, it won't even fix most things, it would simply enable the things that are broken to be fixed. You make the assumption that they can't fix things now. Quote: ACs will still be broken compared to blasters. Actually, AC's will be much better than blasters after the patch. AC's have the option of engaging outside of web range (even if the ships themselves have been nerfed to make it easy for anyone who desires it to get into range). Quote: If you had paid attention, lasers have been this good for a long time, it wasn't until the state of the game changed that people realized it. Actually, if you go look at my posting history, I've been saying that lasers are awesome for well over a year. They were then, and they damn sure are now. Quote: If the change goes through and combat remains identical to how it is today, then if lasers are still overpowered then they'll just bring them in line next patch. You mean how they have been about to bring Locus rigs into line for the last four patches? Or how nano ships have had 4-5 patches go through since the time that CCP said they were going to nerf them? Quote: The point is, the nano-changes are going to change the way fights happen in eve, and it's pointless to compare statistics using any of the current assumptions. Which is why I've been spending so much time on the test servers. Quote: But we cannot assume the current state of play will matter at all, it's entirely possible 3 months from now no one will care about close range turret comparisons as they will be completely irrelevant to the state of play at that time. It's possible, but I somehow doubt that pulse lasers are going to be "useless". For instance a bog standard MP Apoc hits further out than a railthron with antimatter. Quote: 90% of your list can easily be discredited, btw, i'll give you some time to edit your post, but really you should have actually paid attention to what was being said instead of emorage posting. You might want to check your definitions file for "emorage". -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:23:00 - [46] Edited by: Rajere on 30/08/2008 21:23:34 Wow, what a fail post Quote: until you remove the ability for webs to ensure the target is always within blaster Optimal, it doesn't matter how well ACs do outside of it. ACs will still be broken compared to blasters. Learn to actually read what you quote, you will realize you aren't as clever as you think you are. Your "retort" just confirmed precisely what I said, and you owned yourself. the rest of your quote/reply emo-rage spam is equally fail. When they change the game, the game changes. I know, deep right? you'll figure this point out eventually and realize all the effort you put into sandy-vag posting was all in vain. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:36:00 - [47] Originally by: Rajere Learn to actually read what you quote, you will realize you aren't as clever as you think you are. Your "retort" just confirmed precisely what I said, and you owned yourself. I'm really curious about how me saying "Blasters are flat out worse than autocannons after this patch" confirms your "ACs are still broken [iin the bad way, via context] compared to blasters". IMO the two are contradictory statements. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:36:00 - [48] Quote: the part where I said that this wouldn't fix everything, it won't even fix most things, it would simply enable the things that are broken to be fixed. Oh, I did keep reading, I just found most of it a bit tough to swallow. I guess this is what I really take issue with. This patch doesn't enable anything, and it's far from well thought out. It's been more like a fiasco, starting with their now-famous posts about a casual Vagabond pilot in HG snakes, to their complete overnerfing/obliterating of nano hacs, to their overbroad changes that screwed up blasters (which weren't a problem before) and are now requiring a missile rebalance. Well thought out my ass, lol. It was poorly thought out to begin with, and now they're having to apply the duct tape to missiles in order to keep them balanced. There's been no acknowledgement by CCP about what this does to blasters. As Liang already said, there's NO reason that they can't balance things without this patch. A patch that breaks more things than it fixes (and the nano fix really just obliterates nano hacs, hardly a fix) does not enable tem to better balance things in the future. It only creates more problems and gives them MORE things to try and balance in the future. You achieve balance by small, narrowly tailored changes designed to slightly nerf or slightly buff a certain aspect of the game. You do not achieve balance by making huge, sweeping changes that affect multiple aspects of the game and break more things than they fix. Don't make excuses for CCP. This isn't an enabling patch. There's no unwritten rule that says "thou must first break a bunch of crap before thou can balanceth". Calling it a smart move on their part is just laughable, as the patch and their justifications for it are laughable, and are anything but intelligent.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.08.31 00:16:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren Stuff I see.. (the rail comment was a joke, sorry if you did not get it...) Pulses do have more range flexibility, but only with tech 2 ammo really, the cap use bonus nicely makes up for the added range when you factor inn the reduced damage you see when using long range tech 1 crystals. Again, i do see your point about scorch ammo being a bit powerful. You point out that laser boats can start applying damage before a blaster boat, and still perform good at the blaster range, correct? And you want blasters to be THE best when you first come close, right? If this is correct then i cannot see how to balance a blaster buff with current projectile weapons, if you buff blaster dmg and tracking, then autos will be even worse(even with more falloff tbh). Only solution is see to make you happy is to nerf scorch. And this can be done by making scorch suck, or buffing null and barrage. Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.08.31 00:27:00 - [50] Originally by: Rajere Amarr hulls were designed with its cap usage in mind and naturally had higher amounts of cap If you are a captain worth his salt you will know that there are two types of capacitors available, a strong one possessed by both amarr and gallente (same cap per sec) and a weaker one possesed by both caldari and minmatar ships (the exception being caldari rail boats, like the moa, ferox and rokh, they all have the same cap per second as their equal tier amarr hulls) Just had to vent it out, i hate it when people say "omg amarr haz the best capacitorz" (no offence) Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.

Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:23:00 - [51] Originally by: Captator Do you not get it? Every gang BS (assuming not a sniper gang, and even then, try to crap one on) should have at least 1 large rem rep, tempest, phoon, domi, raven, scorp can all happily fit 2, mega, geddon, hyperion (7 ions dps > 8 electrons if its small gang dual LAR fit) can all fit one. 'Forwards' as you term them fit large buffer tanks and a remote rep if it fits (abaddon/rokh are often used in this role due to resist bonus and large base HP, so no rem rep there, without compromising dps, which is why they are not often used in rem rep gangs, plate geddon/armor tanked ravens being preferred. You don't always have more than five ships. Originally by: Captator That is a non sequitur Not at all. I meant that in a gang, and especially a small one, you watch your back, not just each others', and don't always expect other people's RRs and other buggery to 'set' you, as it were. I meant that one should always have a little sense of self-sufficiency. Originally by: Captator absolution is not a good gatecamping ship, it is outclassed by a tanked BS in every way other than tracking, and resists for remote repping (difference being something like 400 dps tanked per rem rep on a BS vs 450 on an abso, and given it cannot fit its own remote rep, its not valuable, damnation however is another matter ). Well, yes. But since he was talking about RRing, I took up the Absolution anyway. It is the second best armor tank there is, after all. Of course, the Damnation is the best, and everyone knows that. But, here's a question; which ship will bait better? The one that some might think they can bring down, or the beast with a potential >90% resists all around or ~650.000 EHP, which everyone knows has that sort of tank? Originally by: Captator Neither of you are really aiding the OP here, at least not from what I can make out - you cannot run a significant active tank on an abaddon while shooting, you can run a single rep assisting a plate tank for a while, but that is pushing it, and if you are being neuted you would be better just running your guns. Aleus your points about the minmatar points doesn't tie in to what Deva was saying or to what you were saying yourself just next to it . This sort of left the OP's turf after a while. Either way, I don't have a crapload of skills, and I've been able to maintain somewhat of a tank on a 'Baddon while dishing out damage. Though that was with NOS, so I guess I'm just a ****.
Sionide Minmatar THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.09.01 06:34:00 - [52] I just find it funny that when I first started out Gallente BSes were the strongest race ships, and Amarr one of the worst. Now the roles will be reversed in the upcoming patch. I laugh at all the people that rolled FOTM at that time frame. So I have to agree with the people who tell new people when they ask which race to play, play the one you want to play because it all goes full circle eventually.
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.01 06:40:00 - [53] Originally by: Sionide So I have to agree with the people who tell new people when they ask which race to play, play the one you want to play because it all goes full circle eventually. this, a thousand times ^^^^
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:19:00 - [54] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Captator Do you not get it? Every gang BS (assuming not a sniper gang, and even then, try to crap one on) should have at least 1 large rem rep, tempest, phoon, domi, raven, scorp can all happily fit 2, mega, geddon, hyperion (7 ions dps > 8 electrons if its small gang dual LAR fit) can all fit one. 'Forwards' as you term them fit large buffer tanks and a remote rep if it fits (abaddon/rokh are often used in this role due to resist bonus and large base HP, so no rem rep there, without compromising dps, which is why they are not often used in rem rep gangs, plate geddon/armor tanked ravens being preferred. You don't always have more than five ships. Look - if you're talking about low-sec sentry tanking, then it's preety much like this: with just 4 RR BS (in fact, you can do it with three quite alright), it's rather trivial to keep each of the BS repped up (as long as cap charges hold naturally). Having local reps is nice at times, agreed. However, don't fret taking a 120-140K effective HP (or more for a Abbadon) ship under sentries. Furthermore, with, say, three-four BS + a tackler (let's say you're camping with 4 people and a HIC) - DPS is already more important then tanks (and you can give any gangmate a respectable tank with three RRs), and buffer+gank fits do significantly more then tanked fits. Geddons are the Amarr premier cheap ganker + cheap RR platform. Has a utility slot so you don't sacrifice DPS, very good DPS, very solid buffer... only weakness really are three mids and (sometimes) fitting issues, so you'll often see them without a MWD or, in fact, any propulsion mod.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:10:00 - [55] Originally by: Sionide So I have to agree with the people who tell new people when they ask which race to play, play the one you want to play because it all goes full circle eventually. You know, the average subscription is shorter than the time it takes for this full circle to come around. How many Amarr players weathered the years between being awesome, and how many quit over it? -Liang
Gimpb Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:52:00 - [56] If it's for large scale fighting, either is fine but amarr is probably better. They have the buffer tank, turret gank, and range... but nothing else really. Gallente has more versatility in slots and ship capabilities, which does shine in smaller scale stuff and has more base cap to spare.

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