Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.

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Agreed.

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Agreed - although muninn, 720's, gate and RF emp = win

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Quote:

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If i saw you on a gate in a muninn and you agressed me, i'd laugh, put a point on you, and watch the sentryguns tear you a new one. Poewrgrid doesn't seem to be a problem to me yes its tight, but it fits. But I don't see why a ship that is supposed to do huge damage should drop all it's damage upgrade points just so it can fit a viable tank, a tank that wont even hold against gate guns.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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A couple of points:
- The Typhoon is pwn.
- The Muninn as described is obviously not a lowsec ship.

-Liang

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Originally by: Sinaitra

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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A couple of points:
- The Typhoon is pwn.
- The Muninn as described is obviously not a lowsec ship.

-Liang

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I think you just lost all credibility.

Which inties are you trying to pop, the ones that sit still?

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Originally by: Sinaitra

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I think you just lost all credibility.

Which inties are you trying to pop, the ones that sit still?

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Originally by: Ruciza

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The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.

Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.

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Originally by: Kaeh

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Originally by: Captator

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Typhoon is awesomesauce torps heavies, big tank, rem reps/AC/capwarfare

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Captator

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Typhoon is awesomesauce torps heavies, big tank, rem reps/AC/capwarfare

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I still prefer a torp raven for omg-gank-with-buffer, and a geddon for RR goodness.

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Originally by: Captator

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Either way, it certainly isn't crap, like the poster I responded to seems to think.

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Originally by: Saraah Leeown

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Ahhh the ol' muninn vs zealot debate.
The zealot hits further, and harder and can tank better is what normally gets thrown about. But people tend to overlook 1 small fact. The zealot is stuck doing EM/thermal damage. The muninn can pick and choose to an extent.

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Originally by: Ruciza

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The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.

Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Saraah Leeown

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Ahhh the ol' muninn vs zealot debate.
The zealot hits further, and harder and can tank better is what normally gets thrown about. But people tend to overlook 1 small fact. The zealot is stuck doing EM/thermal damage. The muninn can pick and choose to an extent.

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The big problem with this line of thinking is that EM/Thermal is actually great damage types.

-Liang

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Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen

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Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 02/09/2008 07:10:38

Originally by: Ruciza

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The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.

Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.

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This is the comment of a person who never flied a Muninn or a Hurricane, or didnt do it enough to see the result of both. I used to think this way too, when I was training up for Muninn :)

A whole Muninn design points that way, I agree. It looks like it was designed in 30-60 range in mind, and thus drones, 650mm artilleries, and a possibility of missiles (heavies or assaults) in highs.

But, the Truth: within these ranges and this role you're speaking off Hurricane beats Muninn in every possible and impossible respect - HP, DPS, skill-intensiveness, even when fitted with some agility mods to compensate for the heavier weight. You can see that even in EFT, let alone in combat situation.

TBH, its the case with lots of HAC-BC pairs, but its less exaggerated.
Zealot doesnt suck compared to Harbinger in this role that much due to bonus that works very well with pulses (we are omitting tha nano-setups for now, as inapplicable to Muninn)
Ishtar doesnt suck that much in closer ranges compared to Myrm because it can field Heavy drones.
Deimos... well.
Cerberus is arguably better than Drake, but again, it's range bonus is cumulative to missile ranges.

Muninn is the worst of these cases because:
- Artilleries hit it's fitting capabilities very hard
- It's resistances do not favor armortanking, and midslots are too few for shieldtank
- Main one - it's HAC bonuses modify tracking and optimal, which is inapplicable to Autocannons, and modifies the Artilleries in the area they suck the most.

This is supposed to be off-weighted by drone bay and missile/utility slots, but in fact you get a ship which can do everything, and thus excells in nothing. Just like many other Matari ships. And with this type of design, bigger is always better, and Hurricane is bigger. And Typhoon is even bigger than that, but much more skill-intensive.

So, no. As much as I'd want it, Muninn can't do closer ranges.

2 sensorboosters, 2 optimal mods, gyros, 720s and Domination CL or Nuclear in the barrels - thats the only application, I'm afraid.

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Originally by: Ruciza

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Your view has a tiny little problem: Arty doesn't suck at all. I guess you are indeed flying Artyships, but obviously (and sadly) have undersigned the reigning paradigms. It's more complex than that. Live the transversal my friend. The "truth" is YOUR truth.

The Muninn is faster and more agile, that is why it got the tracking bonus, combined with the higher ranges it has double the tracking of the Hurricane. It is a matter of how you fly with artillery, especially in the pvp landscape as it is, with its criminal underuse of target painters on target painter ships. Speed is life, as you surely know, and in combination with range it is magic, too. That is the tao of the arty.

Minmatar t2 ships are designed to take on laserships. I don't see a problem in the kin/exp "hole", it's natural and part of the deal. The Hurricane has no shield EM resists either, still shield is what you use when putting all those agility and speed and damage mods into the lows, right?

The bonuses are very much applicable to AC, which are the Minmatar antidote for tracking disruptors. ACs do their most damage point blank range, where both tracking and optimal is useful. As long as you don't want to go into neut/web range, arty is the way to go except the tracking problem, which can be compensated by target painters. Which are not used because, well, they are supposed to suck. They are the answer to all Minmatar problems actually. Just like the rest of the racial EW systems.

The Muninn fits into the Minmatar philosphy.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".

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Originally by: Delichon

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These are not some run-of-the-mill gankers, they are good at what they do. Why they use Muninns and not Zealots?

I think I know the answer. It probably has something to do with focus fire and ability to generate half of average Vagas EHP (and full EHP of an untanked falcon) with a volley from 5 ships...

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Probably because they didn't train Amarr Cruiser V + Medium Energy turret V + spec skills?

Check the alpha on a Zealot.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Your view has one small problem: it contains a lot of fantasy and theorycraft.

Fact of the matter is that arty ships underpreform compared to their competitors. Like it, don't like it, they do. Numbers, unlike people, don't lie.

Secondly, if discussing the Hurricane and Munnin, well, if you really want to, you can preety much get the Hurricane practically on level for some things (tracking,range - you have more slots then the Munnin) while having better alpha and better EHP (yeah, you get the cool T2 resists on the Munnin - and yes, DC II obliterates your T2 resist advantage), while having a agility and speed disadvantage over it.

Thirdly, more tracking is not the antidote for tracking disruptors. Tracking disrupting ships are incredibly stupid if they don't go for range reduction. A single TD will wreck AC falloff (particularly on falloff-unbonused ships) to the point where you must fight in hugging range.

Fourthly, optimal does the least for a Minmatar ship using ACs. Medium ACs will gain about 500 metres optimal. Can you say 'wasted ship bonus'?

Five, target painters are not used because, unless TP-ing something for a torp ship to fire on, they're much much worse compared to the other EW used by Minmatar recons. Namely, webs. Even if SISI changes go the way they're now (which is rather bad), a web is still a 4-5 times stronger effect then a target painter. They're also by far the worst EW system in the game.

Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".

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Originally by: Delichon

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And as for your answer, Cap - even if this is the case and if we accept "Zealot >> Muninn" as an axiom, it just means that Zealots would be pure pwnage when used the same way.
But it would in no way make gang with 5 muninns useless or even weak. (multiple KMs are there to prove it is not) It would just make gang with 5 zealots better.

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Originally by: Delichon

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I see facts and I try to intrepret them.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships.

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