Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jen'te An
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 19:04:00 -
[1]
I have about 8M SP's and a lovely PvE fitted Drake. Most of those points are geared toward running a passive, heavy missile Drake. For making ISK it's great, but I'm interested in small gang PvP. The BB jumped out at me since my cohorts will be covering the other bases.
Here's the fit I put together from the BB fitting thread I found that is two years old:
What can I do to make it better? I added the MWD to give me some legs since my targeting range isn't up to speed yet. I also left off anything to extend targeting range for the same reason. Why should I be able to target past 100km when my ECM gear is only good to 90ish, right? Also, should I use faction specific ECM modules as opposed to multi-spec?
None of the fits I've seen include rigs. Is this because they're just "itty-bitty flying coffins" and it would be useless to spend the extra ISK?
|
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 19:13:00 -
[2]
[Blackbird, Fleet Blackbird] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Particle Dispersion Projector I Ionic Field Projector I Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
For starting out, I don't recommend putting rigs on it... and indeed it's alot cheaper to fly that way. The only reason I'd recommend rigging it is because it's much cheaper to fit and fly several of these than a similar Falcon/Rook.
If you don't want to play the range game, you can fit an LSE/ECCM in place of the sensor booster, but your survivability will be affected. If you want to try and "pretend" that you're a Falcon, fit a cloak in teh last high, otherwise fit the RR or a salvager.
The Blackbird is probably the best gang cruiser in the game.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
thisismyalt
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 19:17:00 -
[3]
With heavys, need good skills for fit.
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - White Noise Generator II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
|
Wardeneo
DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 19:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Wardeneo on 30/08/2008 19:22:57
Originally by: Liang Nuren [Blackbird, Fleet Blackbird] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Particle Dispersion Projector I Ionic Field Projector I Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
The Blackbird is probably the best gang cruiser in the game.
-Liang
this bar a few things i wudnt have a mwd, fit another racial jammer of ur choise/multi, u can adjust highs coz good jamming skills - good range, range = u live and some times missles wont hot so smartbombs, neuts/whatever in highs
i wudnt rig it, no point --> t1 cruiser and the blackbird is prob best gang cruiser in game (t1 anyway) coz for under 10 mill u can (if good skills are present) jam 4-5 bs :)
good work liang, nice reply as allways :)
Originally by: thisismyalt With heavys, need good skills for fit.
Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - White Noise Generator II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
no --> all good bar cloak, i wudnt bother its so cheap if u loose 1 its no biggie adn a cloak ****s up ur scan res and those precious seconds of locking u loose could of ment u jamming a target and getting away and alos a claok stops u locking summin for 20-30 seconds....
wb wardeneo
The best tactic to win a fight in eve is DPS!!! and if u cant do this or fail trying u need more DPS :) |
Stefan F
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 19:45:00 -
[5]
You won't jam 4-5 BS in a blackbird, it is 2 BS tops. In a maxxed falcon you might reach 3 if you're lucky. After that you die (or in case of falcon, recloak) so don't bother with rigs or spend too much isk on firepower as you'll be gone first.
|
Jen'te An
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 20:55:00 -
[6]
Why racial ECM over multispec? Won't a multispec work better on a given ship than the wrong racial ECM? I guess I'm looking for a strategy tip on that.
Also, on the subject of a Cap Recharger, EFT suggests that without it my cap would only last for about a minute. Is it worth sacrificing something else to get more capacitor time, or will the outcome of the fight likely be decided before the cap depletes?
|
uzumoreru
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 20:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jen'te An Why racial ECM over multispec? Won't a multispec work better on a given ship than the wrong racial ECM? I guess I'm looking for a strategy tip on that.
Also, on the subject of a Cap Recharger, EFT suggests that without it my cap would only last for about a minute. Is it worth sacrificing something else to get more capacitor time, or will the outcome of the fight likely be decided before the cap depletes?
Turn the MWD off mebbe?
|
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 21:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jen'te An Why racial ECM over multispec? Won't a multispec work better on a given ship than the wrong racial ECM? I guess I'm looking for a strategy tip on that.
The problems with multispecs are the lower range (which matters alot, since range is your tank), and that you have an equally poor chance of jamming anyone. You'll be far better off just using the racials (and tailor them to the enemy gang if you can!).
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 21:22:00 -
[9]
I personally use:
Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Salvager I
10MN Microwarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II ECM - Spatial Destablizer II ECM - Ion Field Projector II/White Noise Generator II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
Signal Distortion Amp II Signal Distortion Amp II
for T1 cruiser roaming. Having 1 of every racial is nice but means you can only apply so much jamming power to 1 target. 1 of 3 races + a Multispec gives you almost the same total jamming power, but much better ability to focus it whereas to get the most out of 4 racials you need to lock up 4 hostiles of different races...
Microwarpdrive is neccessary for range management, LSE is mostly so you don't get torn to pieces by Drones or before you can even react although a Sensor booster allows you to jam from 100km+ which many people prefer. IMO when jumping into enemies I'd much rather have the LSE.
- Infectious - |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 21:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina IMO when jumping into enemies I'd much rather have the LSE.
TBH, if I think I'm going to be jumping into enemies, I bring a Scorp. :)
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
|
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 00:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBH, if I think I'm going to be jumping into enemies, I bring a Scorp. :)
-Liang
A blackbird jumping into people never lasts long.
Even more so for the pilots that think the MWD is totally worthless
If I'm gonna jump into enemies, I'll bring a MWD cloaked falcon. God knows falcon pilots have 200km bookmarks on every gate, planet, belt, station, and moon in every system in game.
|
ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 00:48:00 -
[12]
1600mm RT, Sig amp, t1 mwd, 5x misc racials. (highs empty - no grid) needs engy 5, but if I absolutely have to fly a bb it's what I use. you could fit an 800 and 3 HML if you really wanted to, but you really won't be doing damage anyways, so why bother?
|
Clueless Alt
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 00:55:00 -
[13]
[Blackbird,] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Signal Distortion Amplifier II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Sensor Booster II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile [empty high slot]
Particle Dispersion Augmentor I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Drop 1 ecm + some high for a mwd if needed.
|
Tuleingel
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 07:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jen'te An
What can I do to make it better?
Use racial jammers and sensor booster (instead of cap recharger). Also downgrade your weapons and fit either 800 mm plate (with assault launchers) or 1600 mm plate (with empty hi slots).
|
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari The Monkey Sanctuary
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 17:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Jen'te An Why racial ECM over multispec? Won't a multispec work better on a given ship than the wrong racial ECM? I guess I'm looking for a strategy tip on that.
The problems with multispecs are the lower range (which matters alot, since range is your tank), and that you have an equally poor chance of jamming anyone. You'll be far better off just using the racials (and tailor them to the enemy gang if you can!).
-Liang
Starting out, hoping to get lucky with Racials really is your best bet. However, if you decide to specialize in ECM, switching to Multispecs down the road isn't a bad idea. You do need high skills (and admittedly, Racials will also be much better, so many still go with them), but having something all around effective is pretty nice.
Either way, keep in mind you tank on your warp drive on these ships. You die easy in every Caldari ECM ship, so get used to it. Even if you eventually go for a Falcon, try not to get attached to them.
|
SoftRevolution
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 17:45:00 -
[16]
Edited by: SoftRevolution on 31/08/2008 17:49:19 Do a couple of multispecs in the rack still work out as less effective overall if I'm running into say... lots of ships of a particular race and only infrequent ships from another?
I see the reasoning if you've got a near equal chance of running into ships from any race but I wonder how that holds up if it's really lopsided.
At the moment I'm running into lots of Caldari and very few of anything else so I'm thinking 2/3 Caldari jammers 1/0 Gallente and 2 Multispecs.
I tried my normal mixed racial set-up and found most of the racials were almost useless.
How does the Scorpion compare to the BB and Recons as an ECM platform?
Cheers. EVE RELATED CONTENT |
Katya Otawan
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 02:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tuleingel
Originally by: Jen'te An
What can I do to make it better?
Use racial jammers and sensor booster (instead of cap recharger). Also downgrade your weapons and fit either 800 mm plate (with assault launchers) or 1600 mm plate (with empty hi slots).
If you really dont want to go without a HP buffer, go with a LSE, lowslots should be 2x distortion amp and nothing else.
Especially with racial jammers where you usually carry one of each type they need to be as strong as possible. |
Mahke
Comply Or Die
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 04:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren [Blackbird, Fleet Blackbird] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Particle Dispersion Projector I Ionic Field Projector I Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
This, but use T I + no rigs, and I like to use no script on the sensor booster.
It's a T1 cruiser. The point isn't to get every % out. It's to die again, and again, and again, and not care, while doing serious isk damage to the other guys. The blackbird is practically built for this. If you want to get fancy, get a flacon. |
Satura
Most Wanted INC
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 05:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren [Blackbird, Fleet Blackbird] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Precision Light Missile Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Particle Dispersion Projector I Ionic Field Projector I Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
For starting out, I don't recommend putting rigs on it... and indeed it's alot cheaper to fly that way. The only reason I'd recommend rigging it is because it's much cheaper to fit and fly several of these than a similar Falcon/Rook.
If you don't want to play the range game, you can fit an LSE/ECCM in place of the sensor booster, but your survivability will be affected. If you want to try and "pretend" that you're a Falcon, fit a cloak in teh last high, otherwise fit the RR or a salvager.
The Blackbird is probably the best gang cruiser in the game.
-Liang
This. Named ecm = less cap usage. And no multispecs, wich is good. :)
|
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 05:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Katya Otawan
Originally by: Tuleingel
Originally by: Jen'te An
What can I do to make it better?
Use racial jammers and sensor booster (instead of cap recharger). Also downgrade your weapons and fit either 800 mm plate (with assault launchers) or 1600 mm plate (with empty hi slots).
If you really dont want to go without a HP buffer, go with a LSE, lowslots should be 2x distortion amp and nothing else.
Especially with racial jammers where you usually carry one of each type they need to be as strong as possible.
It leaves you with only 3 jammers that way, as you need mwd + sensor booster. 1x 1600 mm plate is approx as good as 2x LSE for buffer also. That second distorion amp does you no good if you are dead. Altho it's ofc not written in stone that you would need plate. Whatever works best for you. In empire, where there is no bubbles it might also be possible to live without mwd in what case LSE's might also indeed work. |
|
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 06:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mahke This, but use T I + no rigs
The T2 jammers/sig amps are really worth it... especially if you have Cruiser 5.
-Liang |
Katya Otawan
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 08:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Carniflex
<LSE buffer vs. 1600mm>
It leaves you with only 3 jammers that way, as you need mwd + sensor booster. 1x 1600 mm plate is approx as good as 2x LSE for buffer also. That second distorion amp does you no good if you are dead. Altho it's ofc not written in stone that you would need plate. Whatever works best for you. In empire, where there is no bubbles it might also be possible to live without mwd in what case LSE's might also indeed work.
I usually drop the sensor booster, that makes more sense with 2 distortion amps.
About plates, a 1600mm plate will just barely fit with a mwd and all highs empty, while you get a bit more EHP than from a single LSE your align times will suffer alot.
800mm plates fit better, but are worse than a single LSE in EHP and align time still suffers. |
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 09:09:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Katya Otawan
I usually drop the sensor booster, that makes more sense with 2 distortion amps.
About plates, a 1600mm plate will just barely fit with a mwd and all highs empty, while you get a bit more EHP than from a single LSE your align times will suffer alot.
800mm plates fit better, but are worse than a single LSE in EHP and align time still suffers.
True. There is no single 'best' way to fit a ship usually. Setup I use on BB is Hi: None Med: Sensor Booster II (range), MWD, 4x T2 (racial) ECM Low: 1600 mm plate, Signalt distortion amp II Rigs: None
Locking range 150 km, ECM optimal 151 km. Intended for 'cheap ECM'. Granted, I rarely sit in one, as my clones cost more than BB + that fit so there is better propability to find me in Scorpion or Falcon in fights where ECM is needed. If it's 'short range' ofc then sensor booster is not needed, say if one is using multispecs. |
Saraah Leeown
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 12:12:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Saraah Leeown on 01/09/2008 12:15:09
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mahke This, but use T I + no rigs
The T2 jammers/sig amps are really worth it... especially if you have Cruiser 5.
-Liang
The only reason to use TR2 jammer/SDA's over best named is price. They have the same stats, although best named are easier to fit.
Also I laugh at people fitting plates on their blackbird. The ONLY reason you're in gang is to jam ships, if you get shot at you're not going to tank anything even if you have a 1600 plate. You're a much better use to your gang if you fit 2 SDA's and actually jam stuff. In all Caldari ECM boats, range (and your jammers) are your tank. Stop half assing the job. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 13:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SoftRevolution Do a couple of multispecs in the rack still work out as less effective overall if I'm running into say... lots of ships of a particular race and only infrequent ships from another?
I see the reasoning if you've got a near equal chance of running into ships from any race but I wonder how that holds up if it's really lopsided.
At the moment I'm running into lots of Caldari and very few of anything else so I'm thinking 2/3 Caldari jammers 1/0 Gallente and 2 Multispecs.
I tried my normal mixed racial set-up and found most of the racials were almost useless.
Racial ECM is a bit like fitting resistances to tanks. In some situations, you know what the enemy is going to be and can plan a specific fit accordingly. In others, you have no idea in advance and have to come up with a generic fit that will see you through the majority of situations. Your situation sounds more like the former than the latter - if a lot of your targets tend to be Caldari, then your setup should reflect this and you should carry more caldari racial jammers. In the best situation for example, you'll be camping a wartarget that you know can only fly one race, and thus you can **** him with four of that racial jammer. Intelligence (of the information kind, not the cleverness kind) really helps when deciding which racials to bring.
By the way - 1 'correct' racial and 1 'off' racial will have a slightly better chance of jamming a target than two multispecs, as well as more range and less cap use. It's only when you start to put three jammers on an individual target that 3 multispecs have a higher jam strength (still with lower range and greater cap use) than 1 correct and 2 off racials, so you can see why carrying racial jammers, with perhaps a single "wildcard" multispec, is a good idea in general. |
Karoth Tyu
Battlestars GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 14:59:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Karoth Tyu on 01/09/2008 15:03:36 Edited by: Karoth Tyu on 01/09/2008 15:00:17
Originally by: Jen'te An None of the fits I've seen include rigs. Is this because they're just "itty-bitty flying coffins" and it would be useless to spend the extra ISK?
Correct, Your best bet is to fit it with a minimum of the 2nd best named items in the mid/lows and standard non named t1 items in the highs (your not there for DPS, so why waste money on named/T2 things in these slots?) and never waste money on rigs for it ever, due to your skills your range on it is very low (and the fact you will be primary all the time) you would be wasting loads of ISK all the time if you fit it with T2 throughout.
Stick to using the 2nd best named items on the Blackbird then use a full T2/best named items setup when you graduate to using a Falcon. -- As for your fit, yes, remove all of those multipspecs (never EVER fit them), racials are far better, as soon as you do that the cap will be fine and as such you can drop the cap recharger, change the cap recharger to either another racial jammer or a sensor booster (you may not need the range BUT the better lock time will be good), for you extra high slot slap in a Remote Armor Repair so after a fight you can help your gang heal up if they've taken damage (it's better than having nothing in the slot), do all that and you will be good to go as you will now have a great cheap and easily replacable Ewar ship. |
Florio
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 15:27:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Florio on 01/09/2008 15:27:53 Yeh, I'd agree with the BB being the best gang t1 cruiser.
hi: 2 standard launchers, 2 solace small remote armor reps. med: mwd,large cap battery, 4 racial jammers. lo: rcu, 800mm rolled tungsten.
all t2 mods except where indicated.
In my experience multispecs are a waste of space: they just don't jam frequently enough. Large cap battery is necessary for warps across big systems and for sustained MWD usage. MWD (together with the cap battery) is necessary for getting range from eg. a gate quickly when you are faced with hostiles jumping/warping in. Range is the best tank for a BB. Also, stick your mwd on to laugh at the ogres chasing you whilst remaining on the field. Lo slots to fit the above. Hi slots up to you: I like the standards to chase off casual tacklers and the remote reps to be as helpful as possible to your gang mates. |
Saraah Leeown
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 05:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Florio
In my experience multispecs are a waste of space: they just don't jam frequently enough.
And yet you fit an RC and plate in the lows If you ditch the stupid attempt to tank the blackbird by fitting SDA's instead of a plate, then you'll actually be able to jam things, and can get rid of the cap battery coz you'll actually be able to warp across systems again.
As for running the MWD, if you use a best named MWD and your cap skills don't suck, then you can run everything for over a min, and that's enough to burn out 100+km where you should be in a blackbird.
Honestly anyone not fitting 2 SDA's on a blackbird is an idiot. With max skills (which I know not everyone has but it's a benchmark) 2 SDA's takes you from a 7.87 racial jam strength to an 11.09. That's a 40% increase and will actually make you useful. Actually no scratch that. Keep fitting plates and other crap, and then wonder why your ship goes pop without actually jamming things. Darwin at it's best. |
wibble ipera
Caldari Missions Mining and Mayhem Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 11:46:00 -
[29]
[Blackbird, jammer] Signal Distortion Amplifier II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II 'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I ECM - White Noise Generator II Sensor Booster II
Improved Cloaking Device II Small Proton Smartbomb I Small Plasma Smartbomb I Small 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Signal Disruption Amplifier I Signal Disruption Amplifier I Signal Disruption Amplifier I
Cheap and bloody effective too
|
Leoviscus
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 14:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: wibble ipera [Blackbird, jammer] Signal Distortion Amplifier II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II 'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I ECM - White Noise Generator II Sensor Booster II
Improved Cloaking Device II Small Proton Smartbomb I Small Plasma Smartbomb I Small 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Signal Disruption Amplifier I Signal Disruption Amplifier I Signal Disruption Amplifier I
Cheap and bloody effective too
I WTB BB with 3 Low slots......
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |