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Nerfing, Suicide Ganking, Incentives,and The Future....

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Author	Topic
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:26:00 - [61] Originally by: Tatsujin Koufu as far as I can see it, you have both already You can pvp in low and null sec and I can pve in high sec...whats the problem? Guys like you are ruining what made EVE unique and fun. Vote against the nano nerf!
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:39:00 - [62] It was too easy. They changed it. Perhaps now it will still be easy, perhaps too difficult. Perhaps putting over a few hundred mill's worth of cargo in a freighter may not be suicide after 1.1. Fact is we don't know squat because we haven't tested it yet. Even if it takes fifty BS to gank a pimped mission runner or freighter there will still be a lot of opportunities for profit. It'll just take a little more effort.
Tatsujin Koufu	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:51:00 - [63] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Tatsujin Koufu as far as I can see it, you have both already You can pvp in low and null sec and I can pve in high sec...whats the problem? Guys like you are ruining what made EVE unique and fun. sorry about that, i forgot that im actually writing code for CCP now /get over it
Souvera Corvus Gallente Redroom Eleven	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:55:00 - [64] Same old moan from a pvp'er, who has decided in his wisdom, that EvE is entirely a PvP game that caters for nothing and no-one else. In their support they will throw absurd faux-Darwinisms, hurl the obligatory 'sandbox' crap, try to persuade us all that low-sec and 0.0 are somehow dying because people do L4's or mine in relative safety and tell us all that under CCP's stewardship the game is going to hell in a night-cart. Freakonomics? Laughable. What underpins all this is the arrogant belief that they somehow are playing the game in the 'right' way, whilst the majority of more casual players are playing it in the 'wrong' way and deserve to be sneered at repreatedly until they leave. Failing that, they petition and whine to CCP to subject such casual players to draconian nerfing while maintaining themselves that nerfing and whining are the ultimate danger to the PvP pinnacle that is EvE. Its CCP's game, they designed it and they continue to respond to what they themselves and the majority of the playerbase see as reasoned objections to elements of gameplay that have been abused by players looking for an easy ride. They owe it to themselves, their investors and their players to respond in the best way they can in order to protect their product. They see something is not quite right and then they fix it. Yes, they goof from time-time but generally you can trust them to act in the best interests of the game because its what keeps them in tea and biscuits. I've been anti-pirate, pirate, miner, explorer, inventor etc and I've shot miners and missioners and been shot mining and missioning and I keep playing this game because it isn't a one dimensional slaughter-fest but it poses a risk in almost everything you do. Its not WoW, it'll never be like WoW but it has to seek to strike a balance between its unique PvP appeal and paying the bills that will keep it evolving and the people who whinge and moan about it playing. Here's another EvE cliche...'Adapt or die'. Failing that just play the game you pay to play and then if it goes all technicolour soft and cuddly and has a rainbow just behind every planet, stop playing.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Esmenet Guys like you are ruining what made EVE unique and fun. Actually you are pointing your fingers at the wrong people... Privateers last year destroyed wardecs, by deciding it was "fun" to wardec the entirety of Eve. Various "pirate" corps have continued it by filing wardec after wardec against newer corps/players for cheap lolz. Goons destroyed Suicide Ganking by deciding it was "fun" to destroy several thousand mining barges. Others have continued it by realizing it was cheap enough you didn't even have to scan a ship because you would get lucky eventually. Get the drift? You belly up to the trough enough times and CCP will remove the problem. If everyone had continued to do it occasionally rather than letting it become the new FoTM, no change would have been necessary. The Carebears didn't force this change, just like they didn't force CCP to put Concord in to begin with. YOU did, by pushing beyond what CCP had intended for the game. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Naga Elohim Amarr Forsaken Death Squad	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:05:00 - [66] If this was really a PvP game, there wouldnt be miners. Plain and simple. Why put Industrialists and Engineers in a game then? To have defensless targets? You have PvP'ers and you have High Sec dwellers. Most people prefer to live in the suburbs... Some prefer to live in the ghetto slums.... It all depends on what you want to do. This is a sandbox game, And some people want to make it a static PvP all the tiem game. BOOOOORING! Live and Let die. Why should everyone be forced to fight if they dont have to? Im A Pirate and I have juicy targets all the time. I get people autopiloting and I go into NPC 0.0 and fight people out there. If people want to stay in Empire, mine rocks and run blueprints, thats their business. They dont have to shoot 1 missile or laser. Just Because there are safe Zones doesnt mean its turning into WoW. Every game has a relative safe zone. If there were no safe zones, then you could be killed while logged off even after being logged off for a week. Think of how many people that would ** off. The point of this respoonse, ive been reading the forums for a while and it seems to me, the people wanting no safe zones are not PvPers even though they would like to be called one. It just seems like they want easier targets. (Hint) Want an easy target? Go play WoW. lol A real PvPer go finds the fights, not wait for them to autopilot through a gate in a hauler. (although fun) Killing one does not make you a PvPer. Gate camping doesnt make you a PvPer. Fighting a ship(s) that is near equal or more powerful than you are...... Thats PvP. Scanning down a ship that tries to run from you by hiding in safe spots...... Thats PvP Undercutting a rival merchant by 2 mil isk and still make profit.... Thats PvP.. So you see, all of eve cannot be un-concensual pvp. If it were, the market would be static because the industrialists wouldnt run a blueprint without fear if it being destroyed instantly. This wouldnt be eve without an safe Empire Zone. Ill put it this way. In RL the US is not a warzone. They have police keeping people safe that just want to work and play. There are times when violence occurs but is quickly handled by police. I consider US Empire Space Mexico however, is not so safe. The police could be working with the enemy and there is no promise of safety. Mexico would be Low Sec And lets say Columbia would be 0.0. The general populace is protected by a faction that is surrounded by small gangs of rebels and geurillas who from time to time rush in, take over a town, then move on. Maybe they kill someone or maybe they kill an entire police squad. Sometimes they ** and pillage, sometimes they conquer whole cities. So you see, Empire, low sec, null sec, is all keeping with the RL parallels of Eve and it fits with the storyline perfectly. So get over it. Empire is here to stay. Want to kill defensless people? Go to Low sec of 0.0. Or heres an idea....JOIN FACTION WAREFARE!!!!!!! Let the others fly in relative peace.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:07:00 - [67] See I never understand why so many people whine about being"suicide ganked", I mean ive never been suicide ganked(though I guess ive never travelled like an idiot). When it comes right down to it, I think suicide ganking reduces the number of idiots in this game..... So I <3 suicide ganking.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Esmenet Guys like you are ruining what made EVE unique and fun. Actually you are pointing your fingers at the wrong people... Privateers last year destroyed wardecs, by deciding it was "fun" to wardec the entirety of Eve. Various "pirate" corps have continued it by filing wardec after wardec against newer corps/players for cheap lolz. Goons destroyed Suicide Ganking by deciding it was "fun" to destroy several thousand mining barges. Others have continued it by realizing it was cheap enough you didn't even have to scan a ship because you would get lucky eventually. Get the drift? You belly up to the trough enough times and CCP will remove the problem. If everyone had continued to do it occasionally rather than letting it become the new FoTM, no change would have been necessary. The Carebears didn't force this change, just like they didn't force CCP to put Concord in to begin with. YOU did, by pushing beyond what CCP had intended for the game. Shhhhhh.... You'll make THEM angry. .
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:12:00 - [69] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 02/09/2008 15:13:55 The thing both you and the guys complaining about any possibility of losing their ships need to bear in mind is that you're both playing the game however you see fit and neither position is objectively right because we're dealing with abstract hard to quantify concepts like "fun". Make as much noise on the forums as you like but you're not "right" or even neccesarily the majority. I presume CCP are well aware what people actually do with their time ingame (and are quite capable of filtering these results by shared IPs) and have their own design goals in mind too. Given that the server population is generally 10k higher now than it was when I started playing I presume they've got the right idea overall. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Mongo Veeno	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:21:00 - [70] As an impartial bystander in this - I mission, Try to Pirate (lol), Manufacutre and Faction war all on the same account my thoughts on it are that isk or any thing of worth aqcuiring, should be based on a risk vs reward basis. Id also like to see Piracy being extremely rewarding but similarly risky and hard and insurance companies not paying out for pirates ganking in high sec, it makes sense. But also all for Highsec being safer while people can make a comfortable living in Hisec you should really see Noticable dividends for venturing into 0.0 or lowsec, be it for missions, rats, mining or anything. Balance is key.

Shad0wsFury Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:26:00 - [71] Different strokes for different folks. Seriously. I enjoy griefing people, and I like to suicide gank haulers for profit, but I also understand that there IS a problem with how easy it is to suicide gank people, and that something should be done about it. Should the option be completely removed? Absolutely not. Should people be "untouchable" in any area of the game? Absolutely not. Should it be difficult to gank someone, and there be harsh penalties if you do so? Absolutely. The way to get rid of griefers is quite simple: don't make yourself available to grief. If someone is bumping you or canflipping you while you mine, dock up for 15 minutes and get a sammich, and 99.9% of the time, they'll go away (especially if you do it right away, and don't let them have any fun). They'll go look for someone else to grief. To prevent suicide ganks is pretty easy too. DON'T FLY ON AUTOPILOT WITH HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS VALUE OF STUFF IN YOUR CARGO. If you're worried about your 6bil CNR getting ganked, then maybe you shouldn't brag as much to random people you don't know, because then they wouldn't KNOW you had a 6bil CNR. Brag to the people you trust, the people in your corp if you must. Ever hear the one about the guy who went to the doctor and said "Doc! It hurts when I do THIS!", and the doctor said: "well, don't do THAT then!".
Zen Guerrilla Minmatar Mindfunk	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:27:00 - [72] Originally by: Malcanis Probably because you're an ISK seller. After all this change will buff macroing; macros are used by ISK sellers; you support this change, therefore you're obviously an ISK seller. Or perhaps just an ISK buyer who wants lower prices. To be completely honest, i fund my pathetic attempts at pvp with ISK trading. Usually i trade ISK for items that i trade for more ISK. Sometimes the other way round. I was gonna ask how exactly macroing is buffed by the upcoming patch but i stand no chance against your totally awesome, eloquent and well thought out arguments. You win this thread, whine what you like. ----------------------------- Not an alt. And proud of it.
Hurrum Hurrum Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Malcanis The point I'm making is that these changes DONT protect the new players, they will make it so that ONLY new players will be ganked because they will be the only viable targets. How so? Newer players won't be worth suicide ganking because it will take too many ships to carry out the 'gank'. Plus the age of a player doesn't mean jack shit to a suicide ganker because all they are after is the Loot. Originally by: Malcanis The suicide nerf came about due to a campaign by OLDER RICHER players, who are well able to defend themselves if they so chose, but simply don't want to bother or lose the profit it would take to do so. They claimed - of course - that it was to "protect the new players from being griefed". Which is the EvE equivalent of "wont somebody PLEASE think of the children" - when you hear it you know for sure that they're advancing their own agenda by pushing an emotive button. Did it? Or did it come about because of a suicide ganking campaign against hisec miners that forced CCP to look into suicide ganking and the abuse of the Insurance system. CCP carried out an investigation and found the number of suicide ganks were in their 1000's and new players were getting ganked with 20 million Isk of goods in their cargo. Originally by: Malcanis When the established industrial corps and alliances can simply AFK their freighters and multiple hulk accounts, and use their max-skilled industry alts, there will be no way for new players to compete. Before they could at least have the advantage of actively piloting their badger I and so run less chance of being ganked. Now the old, rich carebears in their tanked T2 transports and freighters and deadspace-fit hulks have no more worries and better margins - all the risk has been pushed onto new, naive players. OMG! Now YOU are playing the 'save the newbies' card.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:35:00 - [74] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Tatsujin Koufu You can pvp in low and null sec and I can pve in high sec...whats the problem? (a) Anyone using the ISK they make in high-sec to fund their PvP (which is a LOT of people) is the problem. (b) Anyone selling modules obtained through PvE and competing with people trying to do business in low-sec/0.0 while being completely immune is the problem. (c) Anyone buying modules and ships by ISK obtained through PvE and competing with low-sec/0.0 people for the same items while being completely immune printing ISK in high-sec is the problem. Agreed there. While I approve of the suicide gank changes (really, being able to "suicide" on a T2 ship without even have to pay the cost of the ship being suicided was stupid at best), I also think that it's time to nerf highsec as far as isk-printing and lowsec material generation are concerned. If someting must be done for mission runners let's give them more of their unique resource, the LPs, and then let the market establish how many isk such LPs are worth.
Naomi Halloran Industry Breakthrough	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:41:00 - [75] Ah, people whining and crying for and against PvP in any and all of its forms... good to see the status quo hasn't changed one bit. Tell you what: you guys play your style of game, and I'll play mine. I might mine a while, I might run missions... who knows, I might get the rare PvP urge. But I'll play it the way I want to. Fair enough? --- "Sarcasm is just another free service I offer. If something I said offends you... good, it was meant to."
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:04:00 - [76] What I don't understand is how can people look at a game, and read, "It is a cold harsh Universe, And you are not safe anywhere", and once they get here, they lobby for change ignoring the rest of the player base that enjoy how the game is currently? Because it does not fit your play style and it is not like all the other mundane and colorless MMO's?
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Farrqua What I don't understand is how can people look at a game, and read, "It is a cold harsh Universe, And you are not safe anywhere", and once they get here, they lobby for change ignoring the rest of the player base that enjoy how the game is currently? Because it does not fit your play style and it is not like all the other mundane and colorless MMO's? Much like tourists who go abroad, then demand the same food they eat at home. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:08:00 - [78] Edited by: Mr John22ta on 02/09/2008 16:15:21 Edited by: Mr John22ta on 02/09/2008 16:12:30 Although I agree suicide ganking was too easy, the only reason that people got suicide ganked is because they pressed that uuto pilot button and walked away/read a book/surfed ****/whatever. If they actually took the time to play the game properly, took precautions, and paid attention, it wouldn't happen to them, it would happen to some other idiot. Eve is Darwism in action. The strong feed on the weak/and or stupid. CCP shouldn't have to step in just because some players couldn't be arsed to pay attention. As for the whole "the majority of eve are carebears so CCP should listen to us" argument, this is my answer: The average playtime for a player is 7 months, I susppect that this is because they spend 7 months grinding missions, getting their CNR, pimping it out with 10 Billion worth of Faction mods, then get bored of shooting little red X's in the same missions again and again, so they quit. However, the PVP'er/Griefer/Pirate/low sec/0.0 dweller are the core playerbase. These are the people that keep their accounts active, because there is always another challenge, another ship to go for, another war to fight, another "insert random goal here". Many of the older players are fed up because they have invested a lot of time in a game that they love, that is so different to everything else and by CCP's own words was meant to be dark harsh and cruel. Once the core is gone, CCP end up with a game thats in decline. Why should everything be changed in favour of the player that missions for a few months and then quits? Just to prove one of my points- How many people where attracted to this game after the 1st big Multi Billion ISK scam that sent shockwaves through the MMO world? How many people though awesome, I want to be part of that!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Malcanis Much like tourists who go abroad, then demand the same food they eat at home. Of course those same tourists generally don't whine on the forums when the country they are visiting changes their laws..... ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:14:00 - [80] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 02/09/2008 16:16:53 Quote: As for the whole "the majority of eve are carebears so CCP should listen to us" argument, this is my answer: The average playtime for a player is 7 months, I susppect that this is because they spend 7 months grinding missions, getting their CNR, pimping it out with 10 Billion worth of Faction mods, then get bored of shooting little red X's in the same missions again and again, so they quit. However, the PVP/Griefer/Pirate are the core. These are the people that keep their accounts active, because there is always another challenge, another ship to go for, another war to fight, another "insert random goal here". Many of the older players are feed up because we have invested a lot of time in a game that we love, and by CCP's own words was meant to be dark harsh and cruel. If this is the case, CCP already know this. If they don't check this kind of thing someone needs firing or hiring in a hurry. If you want to offer anecdotes as evidence I will say that in every other game I have played people are generally bored and burned out after 2 or 3 years. It's the same company making the changes now that said that back whenever. According to CCP Greyscale the suicide gank mechanic changes were to restore the game to the original design rather than a deviation from. EVE RELATED CONTENT

Kin Dahl	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:25:00 - [81] Edited by: Kin Dahl on 02/09/2008 16:26:38 I dont have a problem with people mining, inventing or hauling. I dont mind that a lot of Eves population is in high sec. But when war comes to you be in the form of a suicide gank, or a wardec, then you need to deal with it, not cry to CCP. Everyone here pays 15 bucks a month to have some fun and to reach whatever goal they have in Eve. But if you afk haul or afk mine, dont cry when you get ganked, imo you deserve it. I think some people missed my point in my original post, I dont like the direction this game is headed, and I dont think hi sec should be getting any safer. I dread to hear what they are going to do with war decs. Oh , good comments and opinions, this thread isnt totally off track yet. Who knows they might improve wardecs, but with the current state of affairs im not looking forward to it.
Elder Man	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:27:00 - [82] Folks, Suicide Ganking hasn't been stopped, it's just not as easy anymore. You guys act like you've lost weeks and weeks worth of effort like your victoms. You've lost nothing other than being lazy may not be the best choice in the game anymore.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:31:00 - [83] Originally by: Elder Man Folks, Suicide Ganking hasn't been stopped, it's just not as easy anymore. You guys act like you've lost weeks and weeks worth of effort like your victoms. You've lost nothing other than being lazy may not be the best choice in the game anymore. Make a calculation for suiciding a freighter in high sec with the new CONCORD mechanics and the coming insurance removal. Please post your results here, and then make the quoted statement again with a straight face. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:33:00 - [84] Originally by: Elder Man Folks, Suicide Ganking hasn't been stopped, it's just not as easy anymore. You guys act like you've lost weeks and weeks worth of effort like your victoms. You've lost nothing other than being lazy may not be the best choice in the game anymore. That's laughable considering most suicide gank victims were the epitome of lazy. But whatever. The victim is more right because... well, they're the victim. That suicide gank victim losing "weeks worth of stuff" because they were off nuking a burrito is not their fault. So the only "good" lazy play style is the non-aggressive, autopiloting across the universe kind. Got it. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
JackknifedII Minmatar Darksaber Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:36:00 - [85] OP comes on, puts his point of view out there, and then hurls insults at people with a different point of view than his own. Nice I couldnt give a stuff how other people play a game they pay for. The risk is there. They can be wardecced. High sec space represents the civilised side of society full of generally law abiding people trying to make a living. Lowsec is the slums full of oppertunistic rapists. 0.0 is the deep south man! Now shut up already
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:37:00 - [86] Originally by: SoftRevolution If this is the case, CCP already know this. If they don't check this kind of thing someone needs firing or hiring in a hurry. Uh yea you have obviously missed the reversal of patches because they were stupid. Or the machine breaking codes that shut down puters with a patch. Or the involvement of certain Devs to alter the out come of scenarios in the game. They missed codes that actually made things work. The well thought out ship designs that were tested and re tested that did not work. Yea they clearly are Omniscient. Originally by: SoftRevolution If you want to offer anecdotes as evidence I will say that in every other game I have played people are generally bored and burned out after 2 or 3 years. Anecdotal evidence?! Most of the Whines and claims by Empire hugging care bears are Anecdotal at best, if not skewed to support there personal veiws and rants.
Kin Dahl	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:41:00 - [87] Originally by: JackknifedII OP comes on, puts his point of view out there, and then hurls insults at people with a different point of view than his own. Nice I couldnt give a stuff how other people play a game they pay for. The risk is there. They can be wardecced. High sec space represents the civilised side of society full of generally law abiding people trying to make a living. Lowsec is the slums full of oppertunistic rapists. 0.0 is the deep south man! Now shut up already wow, wow, who did I insult, read my posts in this thread. All i said that was remotely insulting is that afk haulers and miners deserve to get shot down. Look at my post a few comments up, buddy.
Tatsujin Koufu	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:41:00 - [88] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Elder Man Folks, Suicide Ganking hasn't been stopped, it's just not as easy anymore. You guys act like you've lost weeks and weeks worth of effort like your victoms. You've lost nothing other than being lazy may not be the best choice in the game anymore. That's laughable considering most suicide gank victims were the epitome of lazy. But whatever. The victim is more right because... well, they're the victim. That suicide gank victim losing "weeks worth of stuff" because they were off nuking a burrito is not their fault. So the only "good" lazy play style is the non-aggressive, autopiloting across the universe kind. Got it. Oh for **** sake Your in a war of escalating crap here. Heres why Freighter pilot A is lazy, he APs across high sec with 2 bil of assorted cargo - this is lazy and lame "Killer" pilot B is also lazy, he wants to kill a target that falls under category A above. He takes a calculated risk (almost a certainty) that he will generate X isk from Y time. How are these two characters different? They are not. Now quit crying about it like you guys are in the right, your not, your the same. Both lazy and both lame.
Kin Dahl	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:42:00 - [89] Originally by: Kin Dahl Oh , good comments and opinions, this thread isnt totally off track yet. Ya I guess this is insulting people.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Tatsujin Koufu How are these two characters different? They are not. Wrong: 1 pilot is playing the game. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

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