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Nerfing, Suicide Ganking, Incentives,and The Future....

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Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:46:00 - [181] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Would you like a tissue? Do you think that the market is, in fact, a form of PvP? Yes, the market is a form of PvP. Are we going to do this whole "you ask me a simple question, I answer, you draw some stupid conclusion, I tell you you're wrong, you stop posting" thing again? It was ever so much fun with the whole "buying GTCs for illegally bought isk" thing. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:47:00 - [182] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 03/09/2008 12:51:12 Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: SoftRevolution If this is the case, CCP already know this. If they don't check this kind of thing someone needs firing or hiring in a hurry. Uh yea you have obviously missed the reversal of patches because they were stupid. Or the machine breaking codes that shut down puters with a patch. Or the involvement of certain Devs to alter the out come of scenarios in the game. They missed codes that actually made things work. The well thought out ship designs that were tested and re tested that did not work. Yea they clearly are Omniscient. Originally by: SoftRevolution If you want to offer anecdotes as evidence I will say that in every other game I have played people are generally bored and burned out after 2 or 3 years. Anecdotal evidence?! Most of the Whines and claims by Empire hugging care bears are Anecdotal at best, if not skewed to support there personal veiws and rants. Omniscient <> Grasp of marketing basics. I mentioned both sides in the "debate" (is a cacophony of senseless wailing a debate?) in my first post. One bit of bullshit at a time Quote: The solution was to rebalance mineral prices and insurance, not to destroy a profession. How different would the results work out if there was no insurance for losing a ship to CONCORD? I presume it'd still nudge the point at which the enterprise became profitable some way upwards. "Common sense" initial reaction I agree with you but I'm too lazy to do a spreadsheet and check. Maybe it works out similar. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:53:00 - [183] Originally by: Karii Ildarian True, but that fact that it is a straw man, in fact, does... If it's all that self-evident, you should be able to demontrate this fact very easily. So why don't you? Why do you keep skirting the issue?
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:53:00 - [184] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Would you like a tissue? Do you think that the market is, in fact, a form of PvP? Yes, the market is a form of PvP. Cool. Two more questions. What do mission runners usually do with their loot/salvage? Is it possible to loose your ship while running a mission?
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:54:00 - [185] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Karii Ildarian True, but that fact that it is a straw man, in fact, does... If it's all that self-evident, you should be able to demontrate this fact very easily. So why don't you? Why do you keep skirting the issue? I actually did not skirt the issue.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:01:00 - [186] Edited by: Tippia on 03/09/2008 13:01:23 Originally by: Karii Ildarian I actually did not skirt the issue. Posts 160–174 say otherwise. As for your market PvP questions: you do understand that you're only reinforcing Cpt. Branko's points, don't you? Yes, mission runners who use the market do PvP, and that was Branko's original point, if you look back at the exchange that started it all: there is no high-sec=PvE / low-sec=PvP split. There is only PvP. Everywhere. All the time. Trying to separate the two does not and will not work, which is what Tatsujin Koufu was trying to argue. …oh and no, it's not really possible to lose ships in missions, other than through incompetence.
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:04:00 - [187] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Cool. Two more questions. What do mission runners usually do with their loot/salvage? Either they sell the loot and salvage they got from their non-competitive environment, thereby outcompeting people who actually had to compete for their loot and salvage, or they reprocess the loot and put it on the market, thereby outcompeting miners who got their minerals in a competitive environment, and build rigs to put on the market, thereby outcompeting salvagers who got their salvage in competitive environments. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to loose your ship while running a mission? No unless you're (a) insanely stupid, or (b) running the mission for the first time in an ill fited ship, i.e. you're not ready to run it yet. So your answers to both questions, (minus the editorials), are that they (1) engage in market PvP with their loot, and (2) that it is, indeed, possible to loose, one's ship during a mission. One more, if you don't mind. Are any players actually restricted from running missions, any time they choose, as long as they meet the mission requirements?
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:05:00 - [188] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 03/09/2008 13:01:23 Originally by: Karii Ildarian I actually did not skirt the issue. Posts 160û174 say otherwise. As for your market PvP questions: you do understand that you're only reinforcing Cpt. Branko's points, don't you? Yes, mission runners who use the market do PvP, and that was Branko's original point, if you look back at the exchange that started it all: there is no high-sec=PvE / low-sec=PvP split. There is only PvP. Everywhere. All the time. Trying to separate the two does not and will not work, which is what Tatsujin Koufu was trying to argue. àoh and no, it's not really possible to lose ships in missions, other than through incompetence. another straw farmer...
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:05:00 - [189] Originally by: Karii Ildarian So your answers to both questions, (minus the editorials), are that they (1) engage in market PvP with their loot, and (2) that it is, indeed, possible to loose, one's ship during a mission. Lol, now who's setting up a straw man. Try to read what I actually wrote instead of what you wanted me to write. Originally by: Karii Ildarian One more, if you don't mind. Are any players actually restricted from running missions, any time they choose, as long as they meet the mission requirements? Nope. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:06:00 - [190] Originally by: Karii Ildarian another straw farmer... Another unsupported ad hominem. Present your arguments, prove your point, or STFU.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:07:00 - [191] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Karii Ildarian another straw farmer... Another unsupported ad hominem. Present your arguments, prove your point, or STFU. Not going to happen. We've danced this dance before, Karii and me. She asked a lot of questions, made a really stupid conclusion, was called on it, and only then would she shut up. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Kasenada Gallente Suzaku Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:09:00 - [192] A quick point, new players, who don't have the time in game to have the skills, do frequently lose ships to missions, as they are not maxed out 5's in everything, do not know all the missions, do not have the target orders worked out yet, and yes they rush to get into battleships, against all advice they get, but hey, they are new to Eve.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:10:00 - [193] Originally by: Kasenada A quick point, new players, who don't have the time in game to have the skills, do frequently lose ships to missions, as they are not maxed out 5's in everything, do not know all the missions, do not have the target orders worked out yet, and yes they rush to get into battleships, against all advice they get, but hey, they are new to Eve. Already covered in my reply. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:21:00 - [194] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian So your answers to both questions, (minus the editorials), are that they (1) engage in market PvP with their loot, and (2) that it is, indeed, possible to loose, one's ship during a mission. Lol, now who's setting up a straw man. Try to read what I actually wrote instead of what you wanted me to write. Originally by: Karii Ildarian One more, if you don't mind. Are any players actually restricted from running missions, any time they choose, as long as they meet the mission requirements? Nope. I read what you wrote, it was irrelevant. Regarding missions themselves, I guess that you agree that they are a resource available to all players, at any time, if the player meets the requirements. In other words, though theoretically unlimited, they are unlimited for everyone, equally. Is it possible to enter a mission runner's mission and loot/salvage the wrecks, if one is so inclined to do so?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:25:00 - [195] Originally by: Karii Ildarian I read what you wrote, it was irrelevant. No, if you actually take the time to think, it was very relevant. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Regarding missions themselves, I guess that you agree that they are a resource available to all players, at any time, if the player meets the requirements. In other words, though theoretically unlimited, they are unlimited for everyone, equally. Just like nanos where equally imbalanced for everyone, right? Or the fact that everyone could suicide gank? I'm not sure you'll get far with the argument "as long as everyone can do it, who cares if it's imbalanced". Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to enter a mission runner's mission and loot/salvage the wrecks, if one is so inclined to do so? Why do you keep asking these inane questions? I know you are trying to build a straw man on your own, but this is getting out of hand. You continuously disregard what is importat, and focus on technicalitites. Yes, it's possible, but IT DOESN'T MAKE MISSION RUNNING A COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT. THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT THE MISSION RUNNER STILL GETS 90% OF HIS REWARDS WITHOUT COMPETITION. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:34:00 - [196] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Julietta Why are you so implacably opposed to a game which caters for both groups? This. If you don't like the nerfs that the patch has brought in, play in lowsec and 0.0 but I guess that means shooting at people who are going to shoot back doesn't it? They call industrialists carebears, seems like the suicide gankers are the real carebears here since they only pick on the easy, soft targets. They'd probably wet themselves and run screaming to mommy if someone ever fired back at them. Why is it so hard for people like you to understand that Eve is a game with full PvP? There's no "pvp-areas" or 'battlegrounds'. There is one universe and PvP can happen everywhere. Everything anyone does affects everyone else. That's why it's so important NOT to have a PvP-free zone. I am not advocating a PVP free zone. I welcome PVP in all its forms, even in highsec but on the other side of the coin, I feel that some protection should be afforded for new players with little or no skill both in the game and in the form of SP. What I am totally against is players with high skills picking on noobs simply because they are soft targets, people abusing the insurance system to get a free lunch from suicide ganking defenceless targets and most of all, people who call themselves PVPers when they run at the first sign of someone with a half decent setup. Characters who have millions of SP blowing up noobs and stealing their stuff is no better than an adult beating up and taking sweeties from kids in the park. All that happens is that no kid ever goes to the park any more. Is that what you would advocate? No more new players in Eve because they've all been scared off by stories like this from ex noob players? Stories like this kill games. Tachyon The Fringe was a pure PVP game but it was let down by people sitting at the spawn point ganking anyone who logged in before they could even get orientated. I tried several times and most times, my screen hadn't even refreshed from the login by the time I was ganked. Word got around and fewer and fewer people logged in and that was a free server. Do you really think people would pay for that kind of treatment? Why think people would pay money just to be targets in Eve? -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:35:00 - [197] Originally by: Dantes Revenge I am not advocating a PVP free zone. I welcome PVP in all its forms, even in highsec but on the other side of the coin, I feel that some protection should be afforded for new players with little or no skill both in the game and in the form of SP. What I am totally against is players with high skills picking on noobs simply because they are soft targets, people abusing the insurance system to get a free lunch from suicide ganking defenceless targets and most of all, people who call themselves PVPers when they run at the first sign of someone with a half decent setup. Characters who have millions of SP blowing up noobs and stealing their stuff is no better than an adult beating up and taking sweeties from kids in the park. All that happens is that no kid ever goes to the park any more. Is that what you would advocate? No more new players in Eve because they've all been scared off by stories like this from ex noob players? Stories like this kill games. Tachyon The Fringe was a pure PVP game but it was let down by people sitting at the spawn point ganking anyone who logged in before they could even get orientated. I tried several times and most times, my screen hadn't even refreshed from the login by the time I was ganked. Word got around and fewer and fewer people logged in and that was a free server. Do you really think people would pay for that kind of treatment? Why think people would pay money just to be targets in Eve? Your original reply let on that you wanted PvP to be relegated to low sec and 0.0, thus instituting battlegrounds in Eve. That was my main problem with your post. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:37:00 - [198] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian I read what you wrote, it was irrelevant. No, if you actually take the time to think, it was very relevant. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Regarding missions themselves, I guess that you agree that they are a resource available to all players, at any time, if the player meets the requirements. In other words, though theoretically unlimited, they are unlimited for everyone, equally. Just like nanos where equally imbalanced for everyone, right? Or the fact that everyone could suicide gank? I'm not sure you'll get far with the argument "as long as everyone can do it, who cares if it's imbalanced". Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to enter a mission runner's mission and loot/salvage the wrecks, if one is so inclined to do so? Why do you keep asking these inane questions? I know you are trying to build a straw man on your own, but this is getting out of hand. You continuously disregard what is importat, and focus on technicalitites. Yes, it's possible, but IT DOESN'T MAKE MISSION RUNNING A COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT. THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT THE MISSION RUNNER STILL GETS 90% OF HIS REWARDS WITHOUT COMPETITION. Irrelevant because the exact same amount of "unlimited" missions are available to each and every player. If there where restrictions like, for instance, miners and PvPers can't mission, then you would have a point. As there is no such restriction, your point is irrelevant. As far as I can see, everyone can still suicide gank, to their hearts content. If you have anything saying they can't, please post it here. So, irrelevant. Nanos, based on the dev blog, broke the game's physics engine. That is why they are beling looked at. As of right now, the details seem fairly sketchy, in actuality. So, no, this would not be relevant to this particular discussion. As far as my last question goes, I see that you agree that it is possible to enter a players mission and loot/salvage their wrecks. One last question, if you don't mind. Is it possible to kill a player, while said player is running a mission?
Meriela	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:40:00 - [199] Something i posted in another thread, cant be bothered to re-word it for another whine thread, so i'll just quote it. Originally by: Meriela Does anyone even remember when ganking freighters actually was a really RARE newsworthy occurrence, back when they DIDN'T drop anything when ganked? CCP changed that, they made freighters viable gank for profit targets when they introduced loot drops from them. However, CCP now states that the incidence of gank for profit is way too high, they have the numbers, they can see all the incidents, no one in game can do that. CCP has not removed them from the gank for profit list by returning them to the way they were before. So if they carry too much they are still viable targets. An individual Dev's statement that war decs are "pay to grief" (he must really kick himself everytime that gets used) I have to agree with, I know corps who's only reason for being is to dec someone "for lulz" or to "pad the killboard and show how l33t" they are, most people know corps like this. CCP is thinking about changing the wardec system, they are not going to remove it entirely. I dont see how anyone can say CCP is determined to remove non consentual PvP from high sec when there are so many things they COULD have done. They could have removed jetcan mining, no more can flipping. They could have introduced immediate spawn, immediate lock rep ships to concord so a gank target becomes essentially invulnerable. They could remove the wardec system altogether, but there aren't even any rumours that that has crossed their minds. Non consentual PvP is alive and well in high sec, and will continue to be. All that's happened is that the attackers, who get to choose the target, the time and the place, now have to work just a little bit harder.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:43:00 - [200] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Irrelevant because the exact same amount of "unlimited" missions are available to each and every player. If there where restrictions like, for instance, miners and PvPers can't mission, then you would have a point. As there is no such restriction, your point is irrelevant. No, they are not irrelevant. Unless you are saying that balance isn't important and one profession should be better than all others, what I said is extremely relevant. Originally by: Karii Ildarian As far as I can see, everyone can still suicide gank, to their hearts content. If you have anything saying they can't, please post it here. So, irrelevant. No, it's not irrelevant. Suicide ganking was nerfed because some people gained an apparently unfair advantage over other people. The exact same thing is true with mission runners. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Nanos, based on the dev blog, broke the game's physics engine. That is why they are beling looked at. As of right now, the details seem fairly sketchy, in actuality. So, no, this would not be relevant to this particular discussion. Not irrelevant, as what you listed here was just ONE reason nanos where nerfed. Another reason was that it gave some people an apparently unfair advantage over other people. The exact same thing is true with mission runners. Originally by: Karii Ildarian As far as my last question goes, I see that you agree that it is possible to enter a players mission and loot/salvage their wrecks. I see that you once again read only what you want to read. Originally by: Karii Ildarian One last question, if you don't mind. I don't mind answering. I do mind you turning my answers into something I didn't say. Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to kill a player, while said player is running a mission? No. Not unless he's in low sec, but we're not talking about low sec missions. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:47:00 - [201] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to kill a player, while said player is running a mission? No. Not unless he's in low sec, but we're not talking about low sec missions. Ah, you where doing so well. You wish to try that one again?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:49:00 - [202] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to kill a player, while said player is running a mission? No. Not unless he's in low sec, but we're not talking about low sec missions. Ah, you where doing so well. You wish to try that one again? No, because if I start listing the exceptions, you will take twist that around and make my post into something it wasn't. 'No' is the general answer. It's what's important in this discussion. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Malin0	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:51:00 - [203] I quite like the change. From what I've read it means that me with my decent security status could run across you (Kin Dahl), with it appears your awful security status based on the assumption you were a suicide ganker, in a 0.5 system and blow you away with no warning and probably get a pat on the back for doing so. And if you don't like then then you could always War-Dec me & mine which would allow you to do your PvP in high sec. Mal
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:58:00 - [204] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Is it possible to kill a player, while said player is running a mission? No. Not unless he's in low sec, but we're not talking about low sec missions. Ah, you where doing so well. You wish to try that one again? No, because if I start listing the exceptions, you will take twist that around and make my post into something it wasn't. 'No' is the general answer. It's what's important in this discussion. There are exceptions, that will make it impossible to kill a player running a mission? Please enlighten me?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:59:00 - [205] Originally by: Karii Ildarian There are exceptions, that will make it impossible to kill a player running a mission? Please enlighten me? There are exceptions to the "not possible to kill a high sec mission runner". Those exceptions are just that, exceptions, and are not relevant to the debate. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:00:00 - [206] Give it up now, Karii. I'm not gonna help you build your straw man. You have failed to paint Cpt Branko's post as a straw man, and you have basically failed in your argumetation, just like the last time you tried. It's time to give up. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:08:00 - [207] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian There are exceptions, that will make it impossible to kill a player running a mission? Please enlighten me? There are exceptions to the "not possible to kill a high sec mission runner". Those exceptions are just that, exceptions, and are not relevant to the debate. Hmmm, I asked you if it was possible to kill players running missions and you said: Quote: No. Not unless he's in low sec, but we're not talking about low sec missions. and then: Quote: No, because if I start listing the exceptions, you will take twist that around and make my post into something it wasn't. 'No' is the general answer. It's what's important in this discussion. So you said 'No' is the general answer. I asked you to please enlighten me as to the exceptions and you say that they are not relevant? Your position is that it is not possible, in general, to kill a player, while that player is running a mission?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:09:00 - [208] Originally by: Karii Ildarian Your position is that it is not possible, in general, to kill a player, while that player is running a mission? Yes, in general. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Malin0	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:11:00 - [209] Edited by: Malin0 on 03/09/2008 14:12:09 "Your position is that it is not possible, in general, to kill a player, while that player is running a mission?" Anyone who's had this done to them either in a mission or mining in high sec must be wondering at you Kai An. And if you don't know how it's done I'm certainly not going to tell you (and no it dosn't involve suicide ganking). Mal
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:12:00 - [210] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Karii Ildarian Your position is that it is not possible, in general, to kill a player, while that player is running a mission? Yes, in general. So if a player does, in fact, get ganked while running a mission, you believe that this is some sort of exploit?

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