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Dhaaka Vincatar
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Posted - 2008.09.04 03:40:00 -
[1]
Hello folks, I have been playing Eve off and on for a while but I have barely participated at all in PvP until my most recent return to EvE, a few weeks ago.
I have been mostly doing factional warfare and it seems really fun, but I am terrible at it, so I've been looking through a lot of the ship setup threads as well as the other ship fitting guides to determine what is the best for certain situations.
Keeping in mind that...
1. I only plan on flying frigates
2. I don't have skills for T2 gear or fly T2 ships (yet!)
I have a few questions that I wonder if I could get answered. Sorry if these would be better in the New Player forum instead of here, but it does directly pertain to fitting ships...
Firstly, for Frigate PvP, I have noticed it almost seems essential to fit a MWD. I just got the skills for it recently, and I must say I love how fast I can go in an Executioner or Slasher :) However, I have noticed a lot of tactics seem to revolve around being able to permanently run a MWD, Scrambler and all weapons at the same time. I can't do this even with 2 Capacitor Power Relays (I can run the MWD and Scrambler but not the weapons, except with Projectiles or Missiles of course). I can run an Afterburner of course, but I am painfully slow compared to all other ships, especially since I have noticed that people are posting speeds in cruisers in excess of 3 km/s... I can only go 1 km/s using the fastest T1 Frigates with an Afterburner. Is this just the "Nano" stuff going on or is this speed on cruisers the average?
I can run the MWD and Scrambler forever with a Small Nosferatu, however, leading in question #2..
Most threads seem to note that if you are stasis webbed in a frigate, you are instantly dead. However, both my Scrambler and Nosferatu have an optimal range less then 10km, the range of the average web. I can't use a Warp Disruptor as that uses even more cap! Plus, if I try to fit longer ranged stuff (light missiles excepted), with the longer ranged ammo, I do almost no damage! So, do I get webbed and hope for the best, or what?
Also, I just need to confirm... I have often been 1-2 shotted against any opponents I have faced. Shouldn't my speed (around 3 km/s with MWD on) protect me from missiles and the tracking of bigger turrets, or is it not enough on average? I think it is because I am setting my orbit distance too close, so I charge towards them and slow down to almost 0 on the other side to begin to orbit, which is when I am killed. But won't a larger orbit allow turrets to track me better?
Honestly, I am not expecting much. I have been flying mostly the 4 fast T1 frigates (Atron, Condor, Slasher, Executioner), I don't expect to do a lot of damage, I am always flying in fleets so I am just tackling things and letting my fleetmates do the hard work. But shouldn't I be surviving a little longer, or should I expect to implode when I fight anything besides a pod?
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Salar Petrus
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.04 04:07:00 -
[2]
One thing with getting webbed is, if you're perma-running the MWD, you're still going around 200-300 m/s, which is fast enough to out orbit some medium and large turrets. Depends on the webber and ship (recons) of course as to the survivability.
Also, if you haven't, put up angular velocity on your overview. If you're barreling towards your target in a straight line, your angular velocity is close to zero and even large turrets will have much better odds at hitting you, and if they do, it'll be a 1 or 2 shot pop. It can be hard to sometimes but try and approach your target at an angle until you get inside the weapons optimal range. You'll be webbed, but by then you should be too close to the ship for that to matter.
I find the angular velocity very useful myself. Test it out on the complexes with the NPC rats in there. You can see how the lower your AV gets, the more damage they do and easier they hit you. The same is true for player ships, just keep that in mind.
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Daziel Iaar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.04 04:39:00 -
[3]
I would add also executioners are not very good for pvp, they break very easily and do poor damage. The toughest and best pvp ships imo from each race are-
Rifter(Minmatar)
Punisher(Amarr)
Merlin (Caldari) Although the kestrel is fun if you choose to specialise in missiles
Incursus (Gallente)
Even with a cheap fit these ships are pretty good.
"His Will Be Done" |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.04 05:35:00 -
[4]
Your problem is you're flying T1 frigates of ANY kind. You're flying a suicide ship, get used to it. Tackle the target long enough for backup to arrive, and go back to station for a new ship. No matter what you do, you are going to lose the ship VERY often, you aren't really fast enough to dodge much damage (especially from the Warrior IIs that many PvP pilots bring), and you don't have any HP to absorb the damage that gets through. Getting webbed just drops your expected survival time from "a few seconds" to "instant death".
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Reaver One
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
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Posted - 2008.09.04 07:34:00 -
[5]
You're facing several problems here.
First, if you're fighting in the blob (or in big gangs in general), and the enemy FC doesn't call a primary, you will be the very first target of a bunch of folks, particularly snipers, that want to cherry-pick an easy kill. I do this myself when my FC hasn't called primary and the real threats are out of position, moving too fast or aren't to worrisome...look for a juicy T1 frigate moving slow and pop it.
Second, your ship is too small to armor/shield tank in a meaningful way, and too slow to speed tank (generally speaking...there are exceptions) without spending a lot (thus defeating the purpose) and having a heap of SP.
Third, it sounded from your post that you were out of position (the "charge towards them" part). Your job as a new PvPer who doesn't fly an interceptor is not tackling, it's staying alive long enough to have fun. Don't get pulled out from the blob...don't distinguish yourself. Matter of fact, I would recommend you stay aligned to a celestial object at all times when waiting for an engagement (and in some cases during the engagement as well), warping to that object when the engagement begins (or the second you get targeted) and then warping back after folks have started to mix it up (if this doesn't **** off your FC...the FC is the boss).
The best remedy for all of the above issues is not to fly in the blob. Go plexing instead, with small groups. Some plexes have a limit to the maximum size and/or tech level of the ships that can enter, and that evens the playing field right out of the gate. Do plexes that only allow T1 frigates and destroyers, and you can make a big difference in the fight.
Also, the reason you may not be doing significant damage is your speed. Matter of fact, your speed is hurting your damage output worse than it is hurting your opponent's at your skill level. If you decide to do plexes, focus on nano (so you can warp out quick at gates and when targeted...and you can get aligned quickly), and as much tank as you can fit right now. In a plex, this will tend to keep you alive and in the fight a bit longer. Leave the MWD for later, and fit weapons with longer range or tackle to partially mitiagte your opponent's speed advantage.
You can also look into destroyers. These boats can also enter T1 frigate plexes, and they can pack some decent firepower and tank when compared to frigates. Do NOT use them in fleet warfare though...you're just a ripe cherry in one until your skills are much more advanced.
Look around for a Corp that offers training for new PvPers if you haven't already.
Hope this helped.
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Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.04 08:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ruciza on 04/09/2008 08:32:31
Frigates are vulnerable without measures to protect them. EW is very important, as are measures to kill drones (e.g. auto targeting, drone sniping, tanking warriors). You can speed tank much better with an afterburner, and they also take longer to target you.
But - gangs are generally come-as-you-are affairs, with no thoughts wasted on tactics beyond "jam damage dealers (without coordination, that is) -> primary -> F1-F8". I can imagine this is a problem for FW especially.
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Dr Sheepbringer
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Posted - 2008.09.04 09:11:00 -
[7]
I'm also only flying frigs for pvp and well... T1...just doesn't cut it. Not in the "everyday" pvp-eve'ing. T1's are for good fun and they can be quite effective sometimes, but you need to be lucky, or have REALLY GOOD SKILLS and when you have your skill at that level....T2's are as cheap as T1's :)
For gangs and fleets the T1 will do for fodder and fun (they rarely primary you and even if they do...anything will die fast...it's jus the difference in actually noticing you will die, and not just suddenly be in a pod )
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Dhaaka Vincatar
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Posted - 2008.09.04 18:30:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dhaaka Vincatar on 04/09/2008 18:34:06
Thanks for the advice everyone! Looks like I'll be failing for the next couple of weeks until I can fly interceptors!
In regards to plexing and PvP, I have seen only one fight in a plex, and that was an unrestricted. Honestly, I have trouble seeing why anyone would bother as they have to deal with enemy NPCs as well as the enemy players... it just seems suicidal to me.
So far, it seems that Eve PvP consists of avoiding fights until you have more ships then them, then getting lucky and finding where they are, then catching one or two stragglers and instantly killing them with your superior numbers.
As far as I can see, almost no one even bothers to engage at all unless they have overwhelming numbers over their opponents. There is no incentive to do otherwise as far as I can see :(
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.09.04 19:31:00 -
[9]
The singular problem facing T1 frigates revolves around the simple fact that the frigates are designed to really fight other frigates effectively. At some point in the dark and dismal days of Eve this may not have been the case but I'll demonstrat why this is true today.
Most T1 frigates simply do not have the ability to fight outside of webrange with any degree of success. The Kestral and the Merlin represent the single best attempts at this concept, and while most ships can at least deliver rounds outside of 13km they do so using long range, lower damage weapons. Disruptors are also fairly difficult to run for any length of time on your average T1 frigate and as such if you want to tackle for very long at all you absolutely MUST use a scrambler.
T1 frigates are also fairly flimsy. While they aren't the weakest ships in the game (stealth bombers and interceptors take that prize), they cant exactly absorb much fire. Instead they rely on evading damage with small size and speed. And this leads us nicely to:
T1 frigates by and large are not terribly fast. While there is amazing potential for theoritical max speed, you'll generally find people are unwilling to invest much cash into a T1 frigate hull. Afterall, why install polycarbs for exmaple when each rig costs 100 times more than the ship it's mounted on?
If you can ensure a battle only consists of other frigates and perhaps cruisers a well flown frigate can be truly effective. For the most part however the T1 frigate has but a singular purpose in their short operational life spans - disposable tackling.
When built to tackle a ship in a disposabe fashion, most considerations go out the window. The cap use of a disruptor can be safely ignored as you cap will probably last longer than your ship anyway, and if you get neuted to 0 cap you'll die in short order anyway. Weapons take a backseat and become more of a "if you're alive long enough to shoot something feel free" rather than a "I am here to do damage" philosophy. Tanking philosophy revolves around simply making it take longer to blast your ship into wreckage, and as such you'll generally see plates/extender based setups, further reserving that precious cap for your disruptor.
As an interesting side note on the subject, this is the primary reason you rarely encounter caldari T1 frigates in PVP. Their small number of low slots mean that they can't really field much in the way of a tank, and of the frigates only the condor sports sufficient speed to really be able to hope for damage mitigation through speed.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.04 21:13:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Dhaaka Vincatar
So far, it seems that Eve PvP consists of avoiding fights until you have more ships then them, then getting lucky and finding where they are, then catching one or two stragglers and instantly killing them with your superior numbers.
As far as I can see, almost no one even bothers to engage at all unless they have overwhelming numbers over their opponents. There is no incentive to do otherwise as far as I can see :(
This is largely what FW consists of, yes.
I recommend going out in small gangs of cheap ships and suiciding them into larger blobs, who probably aren't even very coordinated anyway, and see what happens.
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Originally by: Arthur Frayn
How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 05:34:00 -
[11]
T1 frigates are viable solo PvP ships. A frigate pilot who has done his research and is using sensible modules and tactics will be able to kill a surprising number of other T1 frigates, cruisers, and even some battlecruisers. The reason, of course, is that a surprising number of other pilots have no clue how to fit their ships or what to do when they get attacked at an asteroid belt--yet they go mining or ratting in lowsec anyway.
Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate
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Dhaaka Vincatar
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:52:00 -
[12]
Can you give me an idea of what I need to look for in fittings?
Most of the T1 frigates have 2-3 medslots, I guess that will normally mean a MWD, scrambler and webifier. Then I put the highest damage guns I can fit in the top, and damage mods or capacitor power relays in the lows.
Does that sound right to you, or is there more to it then that? |
Lumberjackhammer
Caldari
Wildlands Heavy Technologies
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:16:00 -
[13]
a friend once told me, to fight in a t1 frigate is 1.speed 2.tank 3.dps,,,,,grind them down,a nd I can think of no mebbter ship then a punisher to pull that off.
Me on the other hand rarely fly frigates, but I have tried most of them, and without a doubt, the punisher is the best one, fit it for tank, dps is whatever you can fit once u got tacklinga nd tank done,,,,grind em down,,,,,tried it and it works
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Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.09.06 14:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dhaaka Vincatar
Can you give me an idea of what I need to look for in fittings?
Most of the T1 frigates have 2-3 medslots, I guess that will normally mean a MWD, scrambler and webifier. Then I put the highest damage guns I can fit in the top, and damage mods or capacitor power relays in the lows.
Does that sound right to you, or is there more to it then that?
When it comes to T1 frigates and solo PvP, you're talking the Rifter, Incursus, or Punisher. It's not hard to find the cookie-cutter setups for these ships for PvP (easer for the former two than for the latter, as its two mid-slots mean people have to choose...and they don't all agree on whether it is best to give up the webber, scram, or MWD).
Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate
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