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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:46:00 -
[31]
If you want factual suppositions over what should or should not occur I can't help. However if you want to go with story from the prime fiction... Nothing of what you see has any reference to reality. Now that sounds even crazier but it is factually (according to the prime fiction via CCP) the case. The pod "software" is designed to represent to the pilot what is occurring in a fashion that does not overly strain the consciousness of the pilot. In essence, all that you see is a fabricated representation to keep the pilot's mind from encounter any experience beyond its inherit ability to accept or handle. Hopefully this explains much that may seem discordant with what "we" would expect from the physicality of space flight. Why do we see smoke from missiles?Simply for our minds frame of reference and (I'd suppose) a bit of showing off by the Pod Operating System coders. Why do our ships always bank in turns?Again, to give our minds a visual frame of physicality reference. With momentum our bodies (minds) expect a certain level of mass to gravity influence. Why untrain the mind to un-expect this when you can program in what is expected. However, as far as the fiction goes, nothing of what you see is "actuality". It is simply what the interface represents to you and as your minds capabilities interprets it. This also segues well into roleplay as the actual computer game can be likened to the interface your mind and the o/s presents to you. (I.e. Escape Menu Options) Start here for the Prime Fiction: Jovian Wetgrave. The real life/physics comparison to Eve virtuality is not an exploration I'm going to join in. That discussion will exceed my geek ability.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.05 08:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: AtomizerX
Originally by: Lendwill
You are mistaken about regular warp speeds. It takes 8 minutes for light to travel 1.0 AU (Astronomical Unit - the distance from the Earth to the Sun.) Even the slowest-warping ship travels many times faster than light in a normal warp.
I hope I'm not the only one here to read this and realize you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at all mistaken about warp in Eve, you are. Why don't you do the math and figure it out for yourself? I'd ask you to support your statement but since it's obviously incorrect you just need to realize that for yourself and adjust your post. I'll give you a little hint to get you started: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+light+year+in+astronomical+units&btnG=Search So, if 1 ly is equal to over 63k au, and the slowest-warping ship is, what, a Freighter? Then that's 0.7 au/sec... and have you figured it out yet? Or, look at it this way: if you warp from gate-to-gate a distance of, say, 40 au and it DOESN'T take you an imperceptible fraction of a second, then you AREN'T traveling many times faster than the speed of light.
I don't have anything personal against you or anyone else, but PLEASE do your research before posting obvious fallacies.
Just a tiny point: If one lightyear = 63,000 AU (approx) = the distance traveled by a theoretical beam of light in a theoretical vacuum in one year. then one Light day = 63,000/365 = 172.6 AU then one Light hour = 172.6/24 = 7.19 AU then one Light minute = 7.19/60 = 0.12 AU then one Light second = 0.12/60 = 0.002 AU
Therefore light travels at approximately 0.002AU/s while your freighter travels at 0.7AU/s. So even given the figures you yourself provided the Freighter is travelling at about three hundred and fifty times the speed of light.
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Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Patsy kavanagh
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: AtomizerX Edited by: AtomizerX on 05/09/2008 02:50:47 On second thought, I don't care to get involved in an Internet Argument at the moment.
More like on second thoughts, you have realised that not only were you completely wrong but also you were trying to be concending while being so completely wrong |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:31:00 -
[34]
"Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!!"
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:54:00 -
[35]
Just a quick info for the more technically oriented. There is a classical physics paper written some years ago from Miguel Alcubierre that shows a spacetime geometry that "begs to be termed Warp Drive". In such geometry, although the ship appears to go faster than light to external observers, it actually is never going faster than the light inside the warp bubble.
Of course there are the usual objections on whether that geometry is actually achievable or not, but that has never bothered science fiction. :-)
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Ralara
Caldari Shadow Incursion
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Posted - 2008.09.05 10:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lendwill If the ships in Eve Online had a visual effect for when they first surpass the speed of light (299 793 km/s), what would it be? Would the ships lights elongate? Would it turn pitch black with no shadows? Is there a rationale behind why there is no visual effect? If so, what is it?
There is an effect: the warp tunnel and the blue-shift and red-shift. --
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.05 10:32:00 -
[37]
Actually the warp drive creates a depleted vacuum in which the speed of light is higher than it is in a normal vacuum. It doesn't warp anything.
And a microwarpdrive has nothing to do with a warp drive of any kind either. |
Flash Bombardo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.05 10:34:00 -
[38]
Eh-eh !! (Wrong answer gameshow noise)
"As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed"
Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed. |
Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:23:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Link __________________
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kappas.
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Link
Glossed over details are glossed over.
Also: link. -
DesuSigs |
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kappas.
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Link
Glossed over details are glossed over.
Old meme is old. __________________
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Mistress Servelan
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:34:00 -
[42]
lol at these threads. Can I have my 4 seconds back, please? TIA
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ZephyrLexx
Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Abrazzar BTW. The warp tunnel shows a red/blue shift as light would change, depending on the movement towards or away from a light source. That effect is observed in stars moving in relation of (our) earth's perception.
I like how CCP took real science into account when developing science fiction effects.
yeah, just like how space is really like flying around in a bucket of frogspawn jelly an- oh wait.
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:35:00 -
[44]
The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: sg3s The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound.
No. -
DesuSigs |
Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:41:00 -
[46]
Last time i checked sound required a medium to travel through and light didn't....
Sound is definitely not part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
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Flash Bombardo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: sg3s The speed of light is just the end of OUR (humans) visible spectrum. Sound is actually part of this spectrum, however it is waaaaaaaaaaay lower and we experience them as vibrations/sound.
Wrongness of the first order. Sound is a kinetic vibration in a medium like air for example.
Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation and although its wave like structure shares some similarities weith sound, it is completely different.
If you turn the headlights on in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light, does anything happen ? |
Flash Bombardo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kappas.
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Link
Erm, what ? They've borked relativity and it wasn't headline news?
I suspect not.
If you turn the headlights on in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light, does anything happen ? |
Dharmic Vision
Caldari Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Flash Bombardo
Originally by: Kappas.
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Link
Erm, what ? They've borked relativity and it wasn't headline news?
I suspect not.
I've seen this before in Scientific American. Basically, it is a minor statistical difference in the actual speed of an individual photon versus the average, with the uncertainty of quantum mechanics making the difference. It has a lot of maths that I don't follow (not a physicist) but I understand the principle. I see it as a sort of physics bar trick, except needing lab equipment. The experiment pointed to what should be obvious, that there is tiny variance in exactly when photons strike, with the speed of light actually an average with some particles arriving just before others. The difference is minute, and I was not impressed with what it actually meant. The scientists were excited by demonstrating that there WAS a measurable variance and that it could be attenuated to some degree that could be someday incorporated into optical computing, but there was nothing there that actually BROKE relativity. So they could energize photons and make them momentarily faster, like a racehorse that wins by half a length rather than having a photo finish. For all practical purposes, though, it was more a matter of "We have this neat party trick."
Not much meat for those of us hoping against hope that we'd ever have SIGNIFICANTLY FTL travel or even communication. And yes, I did see one or two headlines about relativity being broken-- in fundamentalist religious literature that tried to show that science is pure speculative fiction, delivered to my house in the middle of the day. |
Sol ExAstris
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:20:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Sol ExAstris on 05/09/2008 20:23:12
Originally by: Flash Bombardo Eh-eh !! (Wrong answer gameshow noise)
"As you pick up speed, the light in front of you would effectively be moving faster due to the relative difference in speed"
Relativity means that the speed of light is constant, its frequency increases but not its speed.
Good catch, got careless with the wording. Apparent frequency shifts, not the speed of light.
The CCP explanation of a "depleted vacuum" is probably the worst FTL drive explanation I've ever seen imho. The upper limit of the speed of light can be derived from other constants (the electrostatic constant, and the magnetic permeability constant if memory servers, but its been a while since I've seen that stuff), and can not be accelerated any more by removing stuff that could be in its way. To accelerate the light any faster you would have to change the values of those constants, which would jack the whole universe up since they also dictate things like basic atomic structure and chemical interaction.
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Marsman37X
Amarr Alder Space Pioneers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:51:00 -
[51]
a visual 'sonic boom' would be cool, in a stuning shade of blue if i had my choice |
Sardukarr
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:20:00 -
[52]
stupid question 1... In the real non-fiction world...what about going 99.999999999% the speed of light?
stupid question 2... who has my pants? "no more damn DESERTS!" |
Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim Last time i checked sound required a medium to travel through and light didn't....
Sound is definitely not part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
The electromagnetic spectrum requires a medium too. Nothing exists in this universe without a medium. The fact we don't yet fully understand the EM medium is just a lack of knowledge and advancement.
Call the medium Space-Time, Einstein did.
50 years ago people believed that radio waves traveled via "ether". The term ethernet is based on this fallacy of science. ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational" |
masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:29:00 -
[54]
imagine the eve warp like a krylov tube, the tube is a faster than light pathway, but within you are going much slower than light due to frame dragging.
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Setarcos Nous
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sol ExAstris
The CCP explanation of a "depleted vacuum" is probably the worst FTL drive explanation I've ever seen imho. ... To accelerate the light any faster you would have to change the values of those constants, which would jack the whole universe up ...
Sounds like we found an in game explanation for lag.
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Antimony Noske
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Posted - 2008.09.06 00:48:00 -
[56]
I'll post some pictures for people who'd like to see what lightspeed [or relativistic] travel looks like. Here is your ship standing still:
Here is your ship traveling at half the speed of light. Note how light coming from various angles seems to move:
Now we are at 0.99c. The aberrations in the light you see are pretty large now. Light coming from 175 degrees behind you appear to you as a little under 120 degrees.
In this image our spaceship is traveling to the left. Light has higher energy to the front, and blueshifts. Lower energy to the back, and redshifts. You can see how light from behind the spacecraft begins to wrap-around towards the front. This is similar to a fish-eye view:
Finally, here is a youtube video to help you visualize what happens: Optical Effects of Special Relativity
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Antimony Noske
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Posted - 2008.09.06 05:51:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Antimony Noske on 06/09/2008 05:52:20
Originally by: Shar Tegral
The pod "software" is designed to represent to the pilot what is occurring in a fashion that does not overly strain the consciousness of the pilot. In essence, all that you see is a fabricated representation to keep the pilot's mind from encounter any experience beyond its inherit ability to accept or handle.
Hopefully this explains much that may seem discordant with what "we" would expect from the physicality of space flight.
Why do our ships always bank in turns? Again, to give our minds a visual frame of physicality reference. With momentum our bodies (minds) expect a certain level of mass to gravity influence. Why untrain the mind to un-expect this when you can program in what is expected.
However, as far as the fiction goes, nothing of what you see is "actuality". It is simply what the interface represents to you and as your minds capabilities interprets it. This also segues well into roleplay as the actual computer game can be likened to the interface your mind and the o/s presents to you. (I.e. Escape Menu Options)
The real life/physics comparison to Eve virtuality is not an exploration I'm going to join in. That discussion will exceed my geek ability.[/justify]
Doesn't exceed mine, though.
Okay to start off with: Missiles [and other spaceships] use some simple newtonian mechanics for propulsion. In this case: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Rockets have rocket fuel which they burn to produce thrust. This thrust is a jet of particles and plasma. So the smoke trails from missiles could be construed as ash or unburnt fuel.
Now, as to why ships in Eve bank through turns: Science fiction, and it's a game. Real orbital mechanics are a lot more complicated than what you see in Eve. There are a great number of restrictions on what is and is not possible or efficient. One thing to keep in mind in regards to orbital mechanics is that you are always moving. Always. Even a geosynchronous orbit around the Earth is still orbiting with the Earth around the sun, and with the sun around the Galaxy, it all depends on your perspective.
Now then: think of your spaceship as a bullet. When you fire a bullet, it eventually falls back to the ground because of gravity. Well, we take this concept a step further when a spaceship goes into orbit. It behaves very much like a bullet, except it is going too fast to hit the ground, or in other words, it's missing it. Gravity tries to pull it in, but the spaceship moves forward too fast, instead you curve around and around and around the planetary body. Another way to think of it is that your spaceship is a marble, and planets are shallow bowls embedded in a table, the marble goes around and around.
Traveling to another planet [by not using super-luminal drives/following the laws of physics] involves speeding up your spaceship so that it goes fast enough to leave a planet's gravity well. [Rule of thumb: Slowing down in orbit decreases your altitude. Speeding up increases it. To land on a planet, you don't point your ship down, you point it backwards.] To travel to another planet you basically speed up at the right point in your orbit so that you are flung out and eventually intercept your target.
Combat in space itself is both complicated and simple. Everyone follows ballistic trajectories at ludicrous speed. Changing direction is not easy, and at the speeds involved, a pebble is enough to seriously damage or destroy your ship. Battle are nothing like what you might see in Battlestar Galactica - Ships do not behave like hulking behemoths and will not sit a few kilometers away from each other while in orbit. [This is partly because of how difficult it is to match orbits, and also because matching orbits is wholly unnecessary.]
Anyways, running out of room, for those interested there is more information available at: Atomic Rockets
Questions welcome!
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Sol ExAstris
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Posted - 2008.09.07 18:28:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sol ExAstris on 07/09/2008 18:29:12
Originally by: Locke DieDrak The electromagnetic spectrum requires a medium too. Nothing exists in this universe without a medium. The fact we don't yet fully understand the EM medium is just a lack of knowledge and advancement.
Call the medium Space-Time, Einstein did.
50 years ago people believed that radio waves traveled via "ether". The term ethernet is based on this fallacy of science.
Radio waves are electromagnetic waves. There is indeed no "ether" to the universe, and hence the only 'medium' through which light travels is the universe itself (Space-Time), and that only assumes you can call space-time a medium since its a mathematical construct and not a physical entity like the particles in the atmosphere that make it a medium for energy transmission.
If light has a proper medium, its the fields it carries with itself in the elctric and magnetic components of its self-propogation.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.07 18:56:00 -
[59]
lies lies lies lies.
all energy and matter we see does travel through a medium. it travels through a uniform field of underlying energy that we can not detect (because its uniform)
^____^
Everything that exists is a flaw in this whatever it is.
now excuse me while i try and fabricate my zero point bomb out of these 9 volt batteries.
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