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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:45:00 -
[1]
One place where the harsh world of EVE breaks down is with the ease of using NPC corp alts to make isk and move materials of war in high security space, where they are immune from interference short of suicide ganking.
The proposal is as follows: Members of NPC corperations can not undock Freighters or T2 mining barges in high security space until they join a player corporation. If someone is booted from their corp while traveling, they can still dock up at their destination, but cannot make another trip until they join a player corp. NPC corporation members are welcome to undock T2 barges and freighters in low security space or 0.0, as they can be attacked there.
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Ulric Drone
Amarr Glass House
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Posted - 2008.09.06 18:26:00 -
[2]
Signed.
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Phoenix493
Orion Expeditions
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Posted - 2008.09.06 18:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Clavius XIV One place where the harsh world of EVE breaks down is with the ease of using NPC corp alts to make isk and move materials of war in high security space, where they are immune from interference short of suicide ganking.
The proposal is as follows: Members of NPC corperations can not undock Freighters or T2 mining barges in high security space until they join a player corporation. If someone is booted from their corp while traveling, they can still dock up at their destination, but cannot make another trip until they join a player corp. NPC corporation members are welcome to undock T2 barges and freighters in low security space or 0.0, as they can be attacked there.
NOT signed. And I'll explain why.
What happens if you leave a corp whilst in a station (due to getting annoyed at their lack of organisation etc) and have lined up to join another corp in a completely different area of space? That means having to make two trips +. One to Apply, one to move your stuff. Maybe more to move rigged ships (which is another problem...and there are plenty of threads about that).
I understand why we need to do something about the large numbers in NPC corps - to get rid of macroers etc / unTouchable mission Hoes with expensive ships etc. But this isn't the way to go about it.
However, i DO support having the ability to have your npc corp alt move your items during War Decs. Its what is done. Its done in RL (getting Civilian contractors to move military items so they don't attract attention etc..unmarked cars...blah blah)..So why can't it be done here?
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Ulric Drone
Amarr Glass House
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Posted - 2008.09.06 19:09:00 -
[4]
Well because it`s eve online ,the game is turning more in Hidding online.
NPC alts ,afk cloakers ,nano ***s . Info pilot needs to give also there alts names.Because you are not 3 persoons ,you just you ,deal with it.
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2008.09.06 19:13:00 -
[5]
Even if you do that people will just spam new corps to avoid wardecks. You can make vanilla alt who can create corp for all 4 races, and you can recycle him as often as you want to. If some1 wants to gank your now-out-of-NPC-corp alt you just move him to next corp, rinse and repeat.
Why doesn't some propose more "sensible" nerf like banning 0.0 alliance members from empire? They live in outlaw space, they keep their space by doing criminal activities, they fight non-sanctioned wars... this just screams for Concord to KOS them if they appear in concord controlled space. </silly mode>
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Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.09.06 20:23:00 -
[6]
/not signed
Whilst I agree with trying to do something about Macroers/ISK Sellers, This seems to be more a PvP vs PvE idea, as I know there are a few people that refuse to join a Player Corp because of WarDecs as they do not wish to be involved in PvP
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 20:55:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mika Meroko on 06/09/2008 20:59:24
/not signed..
and besides,
CCP is NOT gonna nerf NPC corp anymore than its already gimped....
remember, they pay as much subs as you do...
and no, switching to player corps wont solve your: "they are cheating and they wont let me shoot them with wardecs" problems...
they can always shuffle around from corps as long as they dont fight back.
(but yeah, in 0.0... that doesnt matter anyways.... now that you dont lose standings with the npc corps for shooting them in 0.0...)
and yes, search the forum.... many ppl before you proposed nerfing npc corp for FOUR YEARS...
thousands of posts on it....
but CCP is NOT going to nerf NPC corp...
CCP uses carrot approach...
carrot approach is good for CCP's financial department..
stick approaches hurt CCP's wallet.
edit: btw, yeah... this idea been proposed to death, CCP ignores it and not gonna do anything about it.. (4 years and counting)
and yeah, it opens to alot of DATABASE issues..
but yeah, is funny how EVE uses the "nobler" version of war in mechanics... while in reality, everybody is shooting each other in 0.0 XD
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Karjala Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.06 23:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Caldari 5 /not signed
Whilst I agree with trying to do something about Macroers/ISK Sellers, This seems to be more a PvP vs PvE idea, as I know there are a few people that refuse to join a Player Corp because of WarDecs as they do not wish to be involved in PvP
Ultimately you forget that hauling shi.. stuff is PvP too.
I think people would just start corp hopping with their hauling alts though if freighters etc. would be restricted into non-npc corps.
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Immersive
Immersive Technology Solutions
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Posted - 2008.09.07 06:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Slobodanka Even if you do that people will just spam new corps to avoid wardecks. You can make vanilla alt who can create corp for all 4 races, and you can recycle him as often as you want to. If some1 wants to gank your now-out-of-NPC-corp alt you just move him to next corp, rinse and repeat.
And then something might actually get done about putting this on the exploit list... --- New to the API? GrabRaw XML
It's coming...
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.07 07:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Immersive
Originally by: Slobodanka Even if you do that people will just spam new corps to avoid wardecks. You can make vanilla alt who can create corp for all 4 races, and you can recycle him as often as you want to. If some1 wants to gank your now-out-of-NPC-corp alt you just move him to next corp, rinse and repeat.
And then something might actually get done about putting this on the exploit list...
think of the GM hours it takes to sort that out..
proving the intention is the hard part... heck, I can see a
"Inter-corp-exchange-program"
by smart people...
but yeah, you cant enforce this unless you make it so that people are LOCKED in their corps when its wardeced...
but this would just peeve off too many people for CCP to add in....
not gonna happen.. not with the direction CCP is going XD
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.07 08:35:00 -
[11]
it wont stop macro miners, you can mine just as fast in a covator as you can in a hulk (ok, maybe like 3-6% faster in a hulk), and most macro scripts do station runs anyway.
all its gonna do is annoy players. |
Mihailo Great
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.07 09:51:00 -
[12]
signed
nothing solves problems 100%, but this is enough.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.07 09:53:00 -
[13]
if this change did go through I'd predict in 4 months you'd come back and complain that people switching corps once war deced is broken and it shouldn't happen, or that having 1 man corps cost X amount to war dec is too much. Then a few months later we'll see some noob come along saying it's not fair that people can dock and just stay logged off when you war dec them......
My point is this isn't gonna fix it, it will probably make it worse; more questionable exploits and noob wanabe pirates whining. If ccp did this it would imply that you should be able to catch anyone which will just cause people to whine when they hide/run.
As for if you do think we should be able to catch anyone.... go to low sec/ or 0.0 to do that. Ganking haulers/miners in safe space should never be easy and profitable.
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Mihailo Great
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.07 16:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Typhado3 if this change did go through I'd predict in 4 months you'd come back and complain that people switching corps once war deced is broken and it shouldn't happen, or that having 1 man corps cost X amount to war dec is too much. Then a few months later we'll see some noob come along saying it's not fair that people can dock and just stay logged off when you war dec them......
My point is this isn't gonna fix it, it will probably make it worse; more questionable exploits and noob wanabe pirates whining. If ccp did this it would imply that you should be able to catch anyone which will just cause people to whine when they hide/run.
As for if you do think we should be able to catch anyone.... go to low sec/ or 0.0 to do that. Ganking haulers/miners in safe space should never be easy and profitable.
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Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.07 19:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kilostream on 07/09/2008 19:46:51 Hmmm,
I'm struggling a bit with this - I'm not entirely sure how much of a problem the "problem" really is, and I'm also unsure of how your proposal would "solve" it.
From an RP perspective, if person "A" has bought an eve account, he gets three character slots on it - if character 1 is in a corp you wardec, and he then uses characters 2 and 3 in NPC corps to make isk or move stuff what is wrong with that? - remember from an RP perspective these three characters are separate individuals - whether they happen to be located on the same eve account or not is largely immaterial.
You seem to be suggesting that because you wardec character 1's corporation, that characters 2 and 3 should be unable to provide assistance - i.e. that when you wardec a corporation you wardec the people sat behind the computer screens, not the in-game characters employed by that corporation.
Furthermore - how would your proposal tie in with courier contracts? are you also suggesting that if a wardecced corporation member places a courier contract [to have his stuff moved by a third party that is not in an NPC corporation] that the courier becomes embroiled in the wardec because he is providing the exact same service that the NPC character could have done?
The problem and solution both seem a little too vague, wishy-washy and incomplete to get my support at the moment.
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.08 06:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kilostream
From an RP perspective, if person "A" has bought an eve account, he gets three character slots on it - if character 1 is in a corp you wardec, and he then uses characters 2 and 3 in NPC corps to make isk or move stuff what is wrong with that? - remember from an RP perspective these three characters are separate individuals - whether they happen to be located on the same eve account or not is largely immaterial.
What is wrong with it is that the logistics that supplies combat operations is not touchable. Of course all the smart players/PvPers know this, and those that don't soon learn it. The result is warfare between experienced entities is about morale far more than logistics and corporate economics.
Quote:
You seem to be suggesting that because you wardec character 1's corporation, that characters 2 and 3 should be unable to provide assistance - i.e. that when you wardec a corporation you wardec the people sat behind the computer screens, not the in-game characters employed by that corporation.
Nope they can still provide assistance, it's just that the alts are actually attackable if identified as ferrying supplies (And identifying the alts would still be a significant challenge, but not an intractable one with enough observation of freighter and hostile movements + use of cargoscanners).
Quote:
Furthermore - how would your proposal tie in with courier contracts? are you also suggesting that if a wardecced corporation member places a courier contract [to have his stuff moved by a third party that is not in an NPC corporation] that the courier becomes embroiled in the wardec because he is providing the exact same service that the NPC character could have done?
That is exactly what is being suggested. If a corporation is carrying war supplies for an enemy you could contact them and tell them to cease and desist or their shipping will be targeted. This is the sort of rich, corporate landscape that was the promise of the game 5 years ago. Since everyone has learned the tricks to avoid it the game has continued to devolve towards counterstrike in space, where the main reason for conflict is random pew-pew.
Quote:
The problem and solution both seem a little too vague, wishy-washy and incomplete to get my support at the moment.
The problem: people being able to provide large scale combat logistic support without reasonable prospect for retaliation.
The proposed solution: Freighters, the main method of bulk war material movement, are always attackable by being in a PC corp that can be wardeced.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2008.09.08 07:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Slobodanka Even if you do that people will just spam new corps to avoid wardecks. You can make vanilla alt who can create corp for all 4 races, and you can recycle him as often as you want to. If some1 wants to gank your now-out-of-NPC-corp alt you just move him to next corp, rinse and repeat.
Disbanding and reforming corps to avoid war decs is an exploit and bannable.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.08 08:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
Originally by: Kilostream
From an RP perspective, if person "A" has bought an eve account, he gets three character slots on it - if character 1 is in a corp you wardec, and he then uses characters 2 and 3 in NPC corps to make isk or move stuff what is wrong with that? - remember from an RP perspective these three characters are separate individuals - whether they happen to be located on the same eve account or not is largely immaterial.
What is wrong with it is that the logistics that supplies combat operations is not touchable. Of course all the smart players/PvPers know this, and those that don't soon learn it. The result is warfare between experienced entities is about morale far more than logistics and corporate economics.
No, it mean that the logistic in high sec done through third (even another character on the same account) party is largely untouchable.
Think about it in real life: if nation A is at war with nation B and a airplane or ship bringing war material to nation A is destroyed by nation B, what are the reactions?
Look under Lusitania and WWI if you have some doubt of the results.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.08 08:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
You seem to be suggesting that because you wardec character 1's corporation, that characters 2 and 3 should be unable to provide assistance - i.e. that when you wardec a corporation you wardec the people sat behind the computer screens, not the in-game characters employed by that corporation.
Nope they can still provide assistance, it's just that the alts are actually attackable if identified as ferrying supplies (And identifying the alts would still be a significant challenge, but not an intractable one with enough observation of freighter and hostile movements + use of cargoscanners).
You have some magic way to detect who is the person for wick the supplies are moved? If one of my alt is moving ships it is to sell them on market? Moving them to supply me? Fulfilling a contract for some other player, maybe in your corp/alliance?
YOu seem one of the usual "no target should escape me, I have seen him in local, he should die without any hope of escape" guys.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.08 08:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Slobodanka Even if you do that people will just spam new corps to avoid wardecks. You can make vanilla alt who can create corp for all 4 races, and you can recycle him as often as you want to. If some1 wants to gank your now-out-of-NPC-corp alt you just move him to next corp, rinse and repeat.
Disbanding and reforming corps to avoid war decs is an exploit and bannable.
Not at all. What is bananble is reforming exactly the same corporation. Leaving a wardecced corporation and joining another, or even several others if several characters leave, is perfectly allowed.
Laving a corporation to avoid a war declaration is a intended game mechanic.
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Karii Ildarian
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.09.08 10:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kilostream
Furthermore - how would your proposal tie in with courier contracts? are you also suggesting that if a wardecced corporation member places a courier contract [to have his stuff moved by a third party that is not in an NPC corporation] that the courier becomes embroiled in the wardec because he is providing the exact same service that the NPC character could have done?
The problem and solution both seem a little too vague, wishy-washy and incomplete to get my support at the moment.
Player corporations should be able to declare an individual as an "enemy combatant", pay a fee to CONCORD and declare war on the individual, if the pilot is not in a player run corporation.
This special fee should be sufficiently high, in order to deter the use of such declarations for simple griefing.
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