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Phoenix Noir
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Posted - 2008.09.08 00:42:00 -
[1]
I think that perhaps it is too easy to get information in low security and null security space.
Local chat can tell you immediately who else is in the system, their race, standings, corporation affiliation, time played... even in unexplored lawless space!
It is one of the most effective and useful tools in EvE warfare, and is a key way for corporations to keep their effective "territory" under control. It undermines the use of specialized information gathering skill sets and trivializes military tactics.
Eve Map is possibly an even greater violator of this information overload by giving away such crucial information as station count, ships destroyed, pods destroyed, number of jumps, pilots active, ect...
Combined, these two resources provide strong arm corporations in low and null security space an iron grip over their territory; able to monitor and track the smallest of incursions. Effectively squashing any hopes of single players or small groups access to this uncharted eden.
A simple and effective way to deal with this is simply to have 3 tiers of information available such that:
High Sec - All information and statistics available Low Sec - hand picked information Null Sec - No information available
This probably looks like a harsh thing to do, however i think it would let EvE evolve into a more dynamic and interesting game.
my two cents...
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.08 00:56:00 -
[2]
I agree, but I'll warn you off the bat that anything or anyone that threatens to take the 'easy' button away is going to get flamed.
That being said, I wouldn't mind having to buy information in losec. Or allowing some nulsec detection system to work for those claiming soveriegnty or attaching it to a POS.
I also hate how much information is available on my character to any and everyone. I guess the future has no privacy clauses or anything.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Gimpb
Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:07:00 -
[3]
It's a recurring argument. The last spike in "remove local" threads was about 4-6 months ago if I remember correctly.
Many (myself included) would agree that local is probably too useful as it is.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:09:00 -
[4]
Like I've said before, and this is from a PvPers perspective, remove LOCAL. Make it a SOLAR SYSTEM or CONSTELLATION chat instead. Just a valuable intel gathering device, a great social-chat device, and for lawls sake, makes it harder to know whos in system with you. makes scanner useful. Hehe. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
DasDizzy
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:10:00 -
[5]
removing local would make it harder for people to get a fight
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Paramite Pies
Minmatar Kasrkin Innovative Assembly
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Solomon XI Like I've said before, and this is from a PvPers perspective, remove LOCAL. Make it a SOLAR SYSTEM or CONSTELLATION chat instead.
This! This!! A thousand times, THIS!!! Remove Local, it's dumb. __________________ EVE-Online. Love it? Hate it? Just play it! Or go back to Runescape. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Solomon XI Like I've said before, and this is from a PvPers perspective, remove LOCAL. Make it a SOLAR SYSTEM or CONSTELLATION chat instead. Just a valuable intel gathering device, a great social-chat device, and for lawls sake, makes it harder to know whos in system with you. makes scanner useful. Hehe.
Local = Solar System btw. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Phoenix Noir
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Posted - 2008.09.08 01:24:00 -
[8]
I'd also like to clarify that i don't mind having a chat, but have it be anonymous. Such that all you have is the blank box, you can type something in and see if someone responds but you wouldn't get anything else out of it. In 0.0 that is.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.08 02:21:00 -
[9]
You know, in reality we would not need to look at local. You can detect the heat that a ship makes even if its just keeping its crew compartments warm and has powered itself easily. And that's using today's technology. Really i don't understand why they have all these skills for probing and things, just not realistic.
We should all know were everyone is at all times, as well as their speed and heading.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.08 02:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vabjekf You know, in reality we would not need to look at local. You can detect the heat that a ship makes even if its just keeping its crew compartments warm and has powered itself easily. And that's using today's technology. Really i don't understand why they have all these skills for probing and things, just not realistic.
We should all know were everyone is at all times, as well as their speed and heading.
With our technology, sure. But has hull composit really not advanced much in a couple millenia? I mean, do the ship makers in the far distant future not have the presence of mind to prevent the hull from leaking precious heat, or to mask signatures created by the ship?
As with any argument of realism in a game ...
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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RogueWing
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.08 02:29:00 -
[11]
Please, for the love of All That's Holy...
More "!"'s post their opinions here.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.08 02:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ruze
With our technology, sure. But has hull composit really not advanced much in a couple millenia? I mean, do the ship makers in the far distant future not have the presence of mind to prevent the hull from leaking precious heat, or to mask signatures created by the ship?
I mean with our sensing technology.
There is no way to make heat magically vanish. It has to go somewhere. Habitable temperatures are amazingly high compared to what space is. There is no way around it. And even a crewless robotic ship has to have electricity and engines. (it could totaly shut itself down i suppose, that would do the trick)
You can not hide in space.
its possible to perhaps temporarily store that heat somewhere, but its got to be able to radiate out.
This is just for perspective mind you. Ive seen these 'no local' threads now for years. And sometimes i even agree with them. As someone above mentioned it would also kind of make you safer because an enemy may not know to even try looking for you. And as long as you keep an eye out on your scanner you can usually tell if someone is trying to probe you out.
But one of the arguments i sometimes see is one asking what sense it even makes to have a local that automatically knows you are in it? I was preemptively addressing that.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vabjekf
I mean with our sensing technology.
There is no way to make heat magically vanish. It has to go somewhere. Habitable temperatures are amazingly high compared to what space is. There is no way around it. And even a crewless robotic ship has to have electricity and engines. (it could totaly shut itself down i suppose, that would do the trick)
You can not hide in space.
its possible to perhaps temporarily store that heat somewhere, but its got to be able to radiate out.
This is just for perspective mind you. Ive seen these 'no local' threads now for years. And sometimes i even agree with them. As someone above mentioned it would also kind of make you safer because an enemy may not know to even try looking for you. And as long as you keep an eye out on your scanner you can usually tell if someone is trying to probe you out.
But one of the arguments i sometimes see is one asking what sense it even makes to have a local that automatically knows you are in it? I was preemptively addressing that.
Of course, space isn't nearly as empty as most believe. It's full of particles, storms, heat waves and radation bursts.
It might just be possible for a future tech to learn how to mask heat signatures just as we mask them in certain clothing and suits. Dissipation through intense cooling, heat-to-energy cyclic converters, that sort of stuff.
I'm just pointing out that, as with all science fiction, it's very easy to explain around anything if your creative enough.
Jules Verne did just that, and loe and behold, look how accurate he turned out being!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Kosume Ike
Amarr GoldenWind
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kosume Ike on 08/09/2008 03:02:49
Originally by: Vabjekf
I mean with our sensing technology.
with our "sensing technology" if 30000000 nukes went of on mars it will take 3 minutes before we -might- know it on earth. and if they went of on pluto it would take about 4 hours.
Originally by: Vabjekf but its got to be able to radiate out.
like into empty space away from any celestial objects?
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ekrid on 08/09/2008 03:09:56
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Ruze
With our technology, sure. But has hull composit really not advanced much in a couple millenia? I mean, do the ship makers in the far distant future not have the presence of mind to prevent the hull from leaking precious heat, or to mask signatures created by the ship?
I mean with our sensing technology.
There is no way to make heat magically vanish. It has to go somewhere. Habitable temperatures are amazingly high compared to what space is. There is no way around it. And even a crewless robotic ship has to have electricity and engines. (it could totaly shut itself down i suppose, that would do the trick)
You can not hide in space.
its possible to perhaps temporarily store that heat somewhere, but its got to be able to radiate out.
This is just for perspective mind you. Ive seen these 'no local' threads now for years. And sometimes i even agree with them. As someone above mentioned it would also kind of make you safer because an enemy may not know to even try looking for you. And as long as you keep an eye out on your scanner you can usually tell if someone is trying to probe you out.
But one of the arguments i sometimes see is one asking what sense it even makes to have a local that automatically knows you are in it? I was preemptively addressing that.
1 AU = 149,597,870 kilometers = 92,955,806 miles.
So you're saying that CCP should addon to all ship modules a Hubble telescope sized sensor? Even with that, you're going to be looking around for a long, long time before you spot what you're trying to find. In fact, this is exactly what the on board scanner does, only it's probably a lot more powerful and quicker.
As to people not getting to fight as much, I will refer those posts to all the whines about loggoffski CNR farmers etc. local makes it far to easy to avoid a fight, since you can see someone coming long before they get to you, and you can just disappear. That's just one of the reasons for this complaint.
If anything, it would force more conflict, as you might jump into a bunch of reds without even knowing it such as:
small pirate group -> larger anti-pirate group. large pirate group -> smaller anti-pirate group.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Solomon XI Like I've said before, and this is from a PvPers perspective, remove LOCAL. Make it a SOLAR SYSTEM or CONSTELLATION chat instead. Just a valuable intel gathering device, a great social-chat device, and for lawls sake, makes it harder to know whos in system with you. makes scanner useful. Hehe.
Local = Solar System btw.
Sorry, my bad. CONSTELLATION or REGION*** ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:12:00 -
[17]
Remove Local entirely and if you think people hug Empire NOW, your gonna get an eye opener.
A security scaling Local info might work, maybe. It might be a two edged sword though.
Does it make gank and fast small gang stuff easier? Yeah. Does it make fights harder to find? Possibly (bad). Will it foster more blobbing in a potentially hostile system? probably (bad). Will it nerf any PVE activity be it mining, missions or ratting? Very much so (bad).
*shrugs*
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Asume Nosami
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DasDizzy removing local would make it harder for people to get a fight
Would it?
You're in low-sec. Somebody is ratting and not paying attention to their scanner. You surprise them in a belt.
Thats only 1 example. It'd actually force people to use their scanners. What, exactly, is the bad thing here?
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kosume Ike Edited by: Kosume Ike on 08/09/2008 03:02:49
Originally by: Vabjekf
I mean with our sensing technology.
with our "sensing technology" if 30000000 nukes went of on mars it will take 3 minutes before we -might- know it on earth. and if they went of on pluto it would take about 4 hours.
And that would be many times faster than we would need to know about anything happening at those distances.
Quote:
Originally by: Vabjekf but its got to be able to radiate out.
like into empty space away from any celestial objects?
Yes, you can point it in a certain direction, but the complication is that you can not be sure were is safe to point it. You can keep it away from planets, and if you are lucky you can keep it away from ships, but then what?
Also light speed lag makes it difficult to ensure you are keeping it pointed away from other ships.
Considering we navigate a series of fixed and known systems its safe to assume there are sensors set up all around everywhere by now to see from all directions. I supose you could argue lower sec has less and thus it may be harder to see people in lower sec?
I guess that's a reasonable explanation even for that one persons idea of diminishing information the lower sec you go.
And actually considering the current way eve works with our warp drives, the very same light speed lag i said would make directing your heat away from people difficult, i suppose you could be through a system before i even see you enter it.
So how about this. On entering a system you know nothing and no one knows of you, for a while. After spending some time however you become visible on local~
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Phoenix Noir
High Sec - All information and statistics available Low Sec - hand picked information Null Sec - No information available
Highsec local shouldn't remain the the OP, it's not fair on people to get automaticly seen in local straightaway when in a wardec, just because their name is at the start of the alphabet.
I was thinking on a local idea myself but hadn't got much past people on overview appear in your local, people able to set custom filters for who recieves their message or who they reveal themselves to in local.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:21:00 -
[21]
Why are we even discussing this? A viable solution has already been mentioned that solves everyones problems.
Change the "LOCAL" channel into a "CONSTELLATION" channel. This way, you know people are around. You know they're in the same constellation as you but as to what system -- well, you're just going to have to look around, right? It'll promote the use of a scanner and still function as an intel-gathering device. Everybody wins. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Havohej
Minmatar Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: RogueWing Please, for the love of All That's Holy...
More "!"'s post their opinions here.
Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their st |
Phoenix Noir
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Solomon XI Why are we even discussing this? A viable solution has already been mentioned that solves everyones problems.
Change the "LOCAL" channel into a "CONSTELLATION" channel. This way, you know people are around. You know they're in the same constellation as you but as to what system -- well, you're just going to have to look around, right? It'll promote the use of a scanner and still function as an intel-gathering device. Everybody wins.
Well i guess we have to keep discussing until they change it :)
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Piper Halliwell
Minmatar Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:28:00 -
[24]
Us PvPers just need to give up....CCP won't listen to us as their major fat "ISK" (money) comes from Carebears more than PvPers. We won't win out to them. -------------------- You've got a gun, I've got a gun, Let's write a tragic ending.
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Vabjekf
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:34:00 -
[25]
I kind of like the idea of a local. Sort of a 'sending message on all known frequencies' type deal.
How about you keep local but you remove the column that shows whos in it, and the little counter that shows how many people are in it? That way you are invisible on it unless you say something, and even then nobody knows if you are still there.. unless they ask of course and you respond ^_^
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Kosume Ike
Amarr GoldenWind
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vabjekf
And that would be many times faster than we would need to know about anything happening at those distances.
you brought up "our sensing technology" well in that case it will take several hours before a ship entering into a distant gate will apear for you in local.
Originally by: Vabjekf Yes, you can point it in a certain direction, but the complication is that you can not be sure were is safe to point it.
chance of a tight beam shooting into space without other stars hitting a ship is very tiny. actualy about the same as your ship being hit by a rogue meteorite at that very moment.
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Chella Boom
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:46:00 -
[27]
Like dis?
http://dass.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=gallery
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Xioden Acap
Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.09.08 03:58:00 -
[28]
It's a bit of a multisided blade.
On the one hand, Instead of looking at local we have to mash "scan" repeatedly. Not something I imagine anyone wants to have to do.
On the other hand, roaming gangs will have trouble with finding people as they'll have to check systems rather than just passing through empty ones.
On some other hand, It would provide much easier means to set operations in motion, however with current game mechanics that would mean camping gates for any sign of intel. There could also be a good argument made as to how holding alliances would normally just take full control of the stargates and pass information along as necessary (if not just fully block access to hostiles).
I'm all for removing local, but there needs to be some changes to improve intel, even if only for sovereign systems.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.09.08 04:46:00 -
[29]
I've said as much 5 years ago, kill the map, kill local, kill static spawns, I'm not going to 0.0. Oh wait, too late.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.09.08 04:57:00 -
[30]
I think the underlying problem with "NERF LOCAL" is that it makes it a good deal more difficult to actually do anything other than engage in random fights when in low-sec or null-sec. Increased risk and no reward on a scale that's already horribly skewed? Not everyone sees being shot by a pirate or spamming the everliving crap out of a scanner (and the ensuing increase of server requests) that should by all means be operating AUTOMATICALLY and maybe at better than 5 seconds of reaction time range at this tech level as their be-all and end-all of eve.
Want to really see low-sec shut down, save the random unprofitable complete noob? Make it even more difficult to turn a profit in there. Want to see Eve shut down? Nerf hisec in the process ;) ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
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