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Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
46
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:07:00 -
[61] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:
With current 0.0 fleet doctrines, your commandship will die within a blink of an eye. Even Carriers get alpha striked by a fleet these days, hence one of the very reasons why supercarriers are used as logistics rather than normal carriers.
How can you make it so without giving the Commandship have an ehp bigger than capitals?
Not as easy as you might think. Command ships used to be vulnerable because they could be hit by the doomsdays. Back then, I would agree. However since the DD cannot instapop, it is more moot. Now the task of hp. it is often overlooked, but carriers can make effective link ships. Not the supercarriers, but normal ones. The ehp and resists can be made high, co processors are not a big deal. The only tough part is that they are not usable unless capfleets are deployed. But then risk it getting popped if supercaps on the field, but supercaps can link too, is a tough cycle.
The only time it really becomes an issue is when the fleets exceed about 150 subcaps in a slugfest, then the commship is at risk. At that point, believe me, I am on my toes, I am always aligned with hostiles only showing and dilligently watching ranges. It they start closing in, I start bouncing, but that is the damnation, and the weakness of the vulture. Damnation can keep moving to avoid fight. If logi gets on a damnation, it isn't going down.
The vulture suffers from sig and not having the same comparable ehp. To that effect, it is at a huge disadvantage. However, the microjump drives could change that. Allowing the vulture to jump around on grid and maintain a long sniper range.
Still need our flagships though. 2 link T2 battleships please. I want my khanid abaddon. Especially if we are getting missiles soon :3 |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
76
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Parsee789 wrote:What If I had a fleet who were spread through different Areas of the entire system. You could designate squad boosters, just a suggestion.
The problem you suggest is no longer about having a booster, but now instead how many boosters you have. For each squadron you will need a ganglink ship and boosting character. This will make providing boosts more cluttered and annoying.
The battle will become all about who has the most boosters.
Is that what you really want?
Markus Reese wrote:Parsee789 wrote:
With current 0.0 fleet doctrines, your commandship will die within a blink of an eye. Even Carriers get alpha striked by a fleet these days, hence one of the very reasons why supercarriers are used as logistics rather than normal carriers.
How can you make it so without giving the Commandship have an ehp bigger than capitals?
Not as easy as you might think. Command ships used to be vulnerable because they could be hit by the doomsdays. Back then, I would agree. However since the DD cannot instapop, it is more moot. Now the task of hp. it is often overlooked, but carriers can make effective link ships. Not the supercarriers, but normal ones. The ehp and resists can be made high, co processors are not a big deal. The only tough part is that they are not usable unless capfleets are deployed. But then risk it getting popped if supercaps on the field, but supercaps can link too, is a tough cycle. The only time it really becomes an issue is when the fleets exceed about 150 subcaps in a slugfest, then the commship is at risk. At that point, believe me, I am on my toes, I am always aligned with hostiles only showing and dilligently watching ranges. It they start closing in, I start bouncing, but that is the damnation, and the weakness of the vulture. Damnation can keep moving to avoid fight. If logi gets on a damnation, it isn't going down. The vulture suffers from sig and not having the same comparable ehp. To that effect, it is at a huge disadvantage. However, the microjump drives could change that. Allowing the vulture to jump around on grid and maintain a long sniper range. Still need our flagships though. 2 link T2 battleships please. I want my khanid abaddon. Especially if we are getting missiles soon :3
Carriers get alpha striked by subcaps in current battles.
I don't see a command ship fairing any better. Alpha will kill before reps can reach it.
Ongrid will simply create bigger blobs and favor bigger blobs. Who ever is on field has the advantage and whoever has teh most booster has the higher chance of winning. |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
73
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:25:00 -
[63] - Quote
There is the Issue with Commandships being on field.
Other than being alpha striked, if your commandship is neuted it is effectively doing the same thing.
Once you neut out a commandship it can't turn on its links and therefore provide no bonus, so instead of wasting dps trying to kill it, you can just get everyone with a neut to drain it dry and rendering it into a useless brick. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
If all you do when in a covert is probe for link ships then you are beyond useless .. the combat prober's primary function is to find anything/everything and provide warp-ins.
Commandships and T3's have some of the biggest tanks in game, try fitting one without shoehorning on 5-6 links and be amazed! That said, all the CC's (except possibly the Damnation) should get a make-over if OnGrid is implemented, worst offender tank wise is the Eos .. Vulture/Claymore can likely get away with a slight/cosmetic change. If you don't believe me, then find a roaming gang using a tanked link ship with logistics support and call it primary right off the bat .. have fun dying in a fire
Rorqual gets 5%/lvl when deployed while an Orca get 3%/lvl at all times. If you have scouts out, protection in place and otherwise feeling good about yourself deploy the big boy .. otherwise use the Orca. Where does it say that getting maximum bonuses at all times is a right? Hell, if things are hot'ish you can slap the mining links onto a bricked Damnation and lose <10% bonus .. end of the world it is not.
As for forcing a type of play; To be competitive in PvP today one is forced to have links available .. making them ongrid doesn't even register on the "being forced" scale, it is more comparable to the Falcon range nerf than anything else.
With immense power there should be equal vulnerability .. and being able to effectively double the power of an entire fleet is rather immense. |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
73
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:If all you do when in a covert is probe for link ships then you are beyond useless .. the combat prober's primary function is to find anything/everything and provide warp-ins. Commandships and T3's have some of the biggest tanks in game, try fitting one without shoehorning on 5-6 links and be amazed! That said, all the CC's (except possibly the Damnation) should get a make-over if OnGrid is implemented, worst offender tank wise is the Eos .. Vulture/Claymore can likely get away with a slight/cosmetic change. If you don't believe me, then find a roaming gang using a tanked link ship with logistics support and call it primary right off the bat .. have fun dying in a fire Rorqual gets 5%/lvl when deployed while an Orca get 3%/lvl at all times. If you have scouts out, protection in place and otherwise feeling good about yourself deploy the big boy .. otherwise use the Orca. Where does it say that getting maximum bonuses at all times is a right? Hell, if things are hot'ish you can slap the mining links onto a bricked Damnation and lose <10% bonus .. end of the world it is not. As for forcing a type of play; To be competitive in PvP today one is forced to have links available .. making them ongrid doesn't even register on the "being forced" scale, it is more comparable to the Falcon range nerf than anything else. With immense power there should be equal vulnerability .. and being able to effectively double the power of an entire fleet is rather immense.
Well No one will use the Rorqual for a minor 11% boost over the Orca with the bigger expense and being stuck in industrial mode.
OnGrid games will just simply make it so that the fleet with the most boosters or Bigger blob wins.
Blobs will just get bigger. And nothing will have truly changed in the end. |
Smoke Adian
12
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:10:00 -
[66] - Quote
No risk and 25% more shields for a whole fleet is silly. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
436
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:There is the Issue with Commandships being on field.
Other than being alpha striked, if your commandship is neuted it is effectively doing the same thing.
Once you neut out a commandship it can't turn on its links and therefore provide no bonus, so instead of wasting dps trying to kill it, you can just get everyone with a neut to drain it dry and rendering it into a useless brick.
And thats why they SHOULD be on field, so that they can be neutralised tactically during the battle, IF you have the presence of mind and a well equipped fleet. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
73
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
Well looks like the solution will now be to bring bigger blobs and more boosters.
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Daedalus II
Helios Research Combat Mining and Logistics
106
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
If instant alpha of command ships on grid is a problem, why not just "hide" them. The T3 ships are perfectly good boosters, so set one up as booster (not a full rack) and put some other weaponry on it so it appears to be a pvp fitted T3. If the enemy doesn't know it's a booster they have no reason to alpha it. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
563
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:13:00 -
[70] - Quote
'i can't bring my booster ship on grid, it might get shot at! Then I wouldnt be able to bring out only the most blinged out t3 fleet boosters with impunity!'
lol jesus
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Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:49:00 -
[71] - Quote
Who cares, It's not game breaking and it'll impact both sides equally. It may even be preferable to have a unused ship sitting in system. |
Neddy Fox
FireStar Inc Curatores Veritatis Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:20:00 -
[72] - Quote
Quote: The one part I am not sure I follow is the #boosts/bonuses. Does that mean command ships would only fit two links or does it mean they get two different racial boosts able to be applied?
AFAIK , the dev mentioned having CS's to get 2 racial bonusses, so (FOR EXAMPLE) the EOS would get a 5% bonus per level for Information warfare and Skirmish.
This is what I understood from him. How many links you actually fit is up to the pilot. I myself fly a lot in a Damnation with only 2 links, 1 passive EHP and a skirmish (yes really) for lower sigradius. Both heavily tank your fleet members more.
On the ongrid / offgrid bonusses : Again, the dev said it would be LESS, not gone, when the booster is not on grid. If you like to ***** away in a pos while your fleetmembers are dying/fighting , a lesser bonus makes sense.
A fleet command ship belongs in the frontline.
Only downside I see is by how I and my fellow FC's fly gangs : split in 2-3 squads, with indivudual Squad "FC's" to surround reds , be in adjecent systems on the gate to catch people that want to get out etc.. This requires a booster per Squad. But if we do shield gangs, a drake with a siege link in will do, with a wing commander vulture, so when we fight together we have max boosts, and when divided we have some smaller bonus per squad.
The unprobable loki's need to go too. It just doesn't make sense that a mindlinked t2 warfare linked loki still cannot be probed, when fitted properly.
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Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:45:00 -
[73] - Quote
A Silly Idea .... to help destroy Rorquals
Turn it into the new Capital Command ship. Allow it to have its amazing bonus +50% while in industrial mode (Rorquals Siege Mode) for any Command link Will only work on grid and out outside a POS.
Though It is a ships that can be remote repaired and Jammed while in industrial mode.
Due to its having the weakest tank when looking at Capitals than can use modules it would be the first ship to go down each battle, especially it is only s shield tank ship.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Zverofaust
Ascetic Virtues
31
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
To give my 2 cents as someone who uses offgrid boosting and fights against those who do erry day, I love the idea of making it on-grid specific. Having an unprobable loki booster alt hidden in a deep safe adds absolutely nothing to tactical or strategic side of battle. Its only counter is to have one of your own. This is both dumb for gameplay's sake, and makes no sense from logical standpoint, that some dude millions of km away is somehow supercharging your ****.
I also think something needs to be done RE aggression. It doesn't make sense that a neutral RR will be flagged as enemy when he reps your enemy but a neutral booster won't. He is arguably giving as much of a benefit to your enemies as the RR but you can't do ****. It's become so that many corps and even individuals (like myself) will keep a neutral Loki alt in a deep safe in system just throwing out boosts completely scott-free from harm or retribution.
Make them only work on grid or at the very least be 50% as good if off-grid. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
769
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:How will you make this work?
Imagine you're in a system where you have different parts of the fleet in different areas of the system.
With the requirement of On-Grid boosting the fleet commander will have be on-grid with one group while the rest receive no bonuses.
In order for boosts to be given to everywhere you will now need several times more leadership players to give everyone boosts.
This requirement for On-grid boosting will simply hurt more than it helps.
This will make the application of Boosts more complex and Cluttered.
This will simply make applying boosts a real big hassle when you're dealing with fleets that are scattered around the system, all doing different things.
How are you gonna fix this without requiring more leadership characters and bigger blobs.
People all have been proposing nerfing boosts to grid without providing a way to properly balancing the nerf.
You propose things that are convenient to you, you don't think ahead of the consequences that it will make.
It's almost as though people would have to think about where the bonuses are needed the most and plan accordingly.
In other words, reducing or eliminating off-grid bonuses would be a good thing.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
76
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:The problem you suggest is no longer about having a booster, but now instead how many boosters you have. For each squadron you will need a ganglink ship and boosting character. This will make providing boosts more cluttered and annoying.
The battle will become all about who has the most boosters.
Is that what you really want? What I want is for you to either HTFU or GTFO. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
baltec1
908
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:There is the Issue with Commandships being on field.
Other than being alpha striked, if your commandship is neuted it is effectively doing the same thing.
Once you neut out a commandship it can't turn on its links and therefore provide no bonus, so instead of wasting dps trying to kill it, you can just get everyone with a neut to drain it dry and rendering it into a useless brick.
The other sides commnad ships will be in exactly the same danger. Whats your point? |
Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
171
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Posted - 2012.03.28 11:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
Off grid boosting = mini-siege mode Let's say because you need moar powah to give the bonuses to a fleet somewhere not nearby, and to get that powah you must go into siege mode. Mini because keeping it under 5 minutes is probably good--enough time to be found by someone who knows what they are doing, even if nigh unprobable.
lolololol |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
497
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:MotherMoon wrote: Actually I'm all for making it so if you're more than 150km away you don't even get bonuses. You did not answer my question. What If I had a fleet who were spread through different Areas of the entire system. Areas that are separated in terms of AU rather than km. What if my fleet was defending multiple poses? 150km is certainly not enough to cover that distance. How are you going to handle that?
get more command ship pilots.
but I understand what you're trying to say, so how about a compromise? Command ships can keep giving off grid bonuses... but I get to use my logistic ships shield transfers anywhere in the system. Even if I'm 10 AU away. Ok, does that sound fair?
Because lets face it, if i couldn't heal other ships while I'm off grid, how would we ever be able to heal ships in other fleets if we spread out?
They just need to make it so command ships give bonuses based on range, no matter who the fleet booster is.
Quote:Off grid boosting = mini-siege mode Again I'm so for this idea, as long as they can't move, and be hunted down. whether it be the ship itself or if command ships start dropping deployable that give the bonuses instead of the command ship it'self. I'm ok with it. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
497
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:Markus Reese wrote:MotherMoon wrote:Actually I'm all for making it so if you're more than 150km away you don't even get bonuses. This idea not in favor of, having a specific range. I have been in larger combats where the fleets spread out a fair bit but still on grid. Start doing bounces around bubbles and poses, ranges can easily exceed that. For Parsee about the spread fleet, in that case, that would be a risk for splitting the fleet up, or you set up more planning in the wings. No bonus or partial bonus, I just want an advantage for putting commship onto the field. With current 0.0 fleet doctrines, your commandship will die within a blink of an eye. Even Carriers get alpha striked by a fleet these days, hence one of the very reasons why supercarriers are used as logistics rather than normal carriers. How can you make it so without giving the Commandship have an ehp bigger than capitals?
easy fix the whole, 1000 ships can target you all at once without some sort of draw back.
I've been here for 7 years. And one day they will choose one of the many many fixes for this.
I like the one where as long as multiple people are in the process of targeting, targeting slows down for each next person in the stack, until the person below them is done targeting. Basically you lower the sig radius of command ships. This combined with the new target breaker module, should keep you alive in a well organized fight.
fit yourself with a buffer tank and have back up to heal you. |
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
478
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:20:00 -
[81] - Quote
AraniFyr wrote:It should be on grid...too big of an advantage for such low risk
Disagree.
titans for example. They're about to be nerfed to an extent where they are going to be given a different role. For how much they cost, It's not something you warp around with your home defense fleet.
A lot about command ships need to be fixed before they start making bonuses on-grid. Not to mention fleet bonuses break after you do a session change, I don't see this particular part of the game being touched for a while.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Neddy Fox
FireStar Inc Curatores Veritatis Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:37:00 -
[82] - Quote
Would be nice if CCP Ytterbium would post some comments here (IIRC that was de DEV doing the round tables)..
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Proteus Maximus
New Eden Outcasts Malicious Intent Gentleman's Club
63
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
Definitely require a fleet booster be on grid. In regard to defense why not modification to fit a purely defensive siege module? Discuss Eve... Burn it....Burn it All |
Rhinanna
CyberShield Inc ROMANIAN-LEGION
119
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:On-grid is fine but fitting requirements for links on T3s would need to be dropped so that the booster doesn't die to two 1400mm volleys with a remotely efficient link setup. Otherwise people would use command ships again to be able to use full racks of links while still having hundreds of thousands of EHP. Just because you're balancing something doesn't mean you have to make it practically useless.
Only if they also reduce the Tech 3 bonuses to lower than that of command ships.
At the moment a Tech 3 command can bring bigger bonuses to a gang than a dedicated command ship which is silly. The command's ships advantage is that it can bring 3 links instead of 1, but as you don't need tank at the moment, the Tech 3s can bring 3 links with bigger bonuses. This helps balance that.
Its a trade-off, choose which you want on your Tier 3, massive tank or all 3 links, its up to you, stop demanding your tech 3 does everything best.
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.04.23 11:06:00 -
[85] - Quote
Allrigth, throwing in my two cents on this matter, after reading most but not all of the posts to thei thread are about Combat activities, but to be honest, not all aspects in Eve are just combat focused, please remember about the industrials / miners which enjoy the bonus given from a Off grid Rorqual or Ecellent skilled Orca pilot beeing on Safe spot or under POS FF, Remove the complete Off grid Boost will hurt them such massively Miners will get another knife in their back brougth to them by CCP and favorited by the whiney PvPlers not beeing able to find a solution for enemy boosters.
Most of you PvPlers brougth very valid points but selfish and egoistic like most of yours are forget there are other aspects jobs wihtin Eve also profiting from this Off grid bonus......So please....Stop whinning find another solution then removing Off grid Boosts PERIOD.
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Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2012.04.23 11:22:00 -
[86] - Quote
Noone mentioned ECM so far. Who cares about booster? Strange... |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2012.04.23 11:28:00 -
[87] - Quote
Anyway: a booster should be on grid. You want to fight with bonuses? Be on grid visually. But what about fleet bonuses? If boosters have to be on grid the fleet booster should be logically on grid, too. Otherwise: no bonuses. |
Klown Walk
Black Rebel Rifter Club
78
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Posted - 2012.04.23 11:41:00 -
[88] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:On-grid is fine but fitting requirements for links on T3s would need to be dropped so that the booster doesn't die to two 1400mm volleys with a remotely efficient link setup. Otherwise people would use command ships again to be able to use full racks of links while still having hundreds of thousands of EHP. Just because you're balancing something doesn't mean you have to make it practically useless. Only if they also reduce the Tech 3 bonuses to lower than that of command ships. At the moment a Tech 3 command can bring bigger bonuses to a gang than a dedicated command ship which is silly. The command's ships advantage is that it can bring 3 links instead of 1, but as you don't need tank at the moment, the Tech 3s can bring 3 links with bigger bonuses. This helps balance that. Its a trade-off, choose which you want on your Tier 3, massive tank or all 3 links, its up to you, stop demanding your tech 3 does everything best.
Command ships can be used for anti tackle in a fight and has a massive tank, t3 will die so fast that they will be useless on grid. Making them on grid will only help camps/blobs. |
Beat General
Sons of Retribution Malice Alliance
30
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Posted - 2012.04.23 11:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
I'm glad none of you work at CCP, because all these ideas are terrible.
also: Nerfing off-grid boosting will only buff blobs.
T3s aren't "OP". A T3 can fit only 1 link right out the box with a stronger bonus. A fleet command ship can fit 3, as well as a beastly tank.
If you want to make the T3 fit three links then you gimp the fit so much it gets 2 shotted by anything, does no dps, does nothing. |
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
167
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Posted - 2012.04.23 12:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
Andre Jean Sarpantis wrote:Allrigth, throwing in my two cents on this matter, after reading most but not all of the posts to thei thread are about Combat activities, but to be honest, not all aspects in Eve are just combat focused, please remember about the industrials / miners which enjoy the bonus given from a Off grid Rorqual or Ecellent skilled Orca pilot beeing on Safe spot or under POS FF, Remove the complete Off grid Boost will hurt them such massively Miners will get another knife in their back brougth to them by CCP and favorited by the whiney PvPlers not beeing able to find a solution for enemy boosters.
Most of you PvPlers brougth very valid points but selfish and egoistic like most of yours are forget there are other aspects jobs wihtin Eve also profiting from this Off grid bonus......So please....Stop whinning find another solution then removing Off grid Boosts PERIOD.
You want to benfit from a Rorqual then u have to risk it. I cant wait to kill Rorqual's that can no longer hide in the pos. |
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