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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:48:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: amarrcommander Anyone else seem to think this was insider trading?
Yes, anyone? Please?
Insider trading, no not IMO.
Although I think TS should of just put it in the intial report, without doing that it does seem like something was trying to be hiden. --
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:49:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Treelox See I just do not get how you can be so unable to get the word out. You already have 2 huge vehicles to do it with.
Why not crosspromote ammong the 3 BIG ventures. It seems so simple. For 100m isk I'll lay out the whole plan.
I have been saying for years that a link-share between BIG's various websites was needed. I even wrote the layout required, short of writing the HTML for TS I couldn't have made it easier. Please, do this.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:52:00 -
[63]
Ignoring the ALT troll, but...
I will let BMBE ride out through September and October reports, but if there is no pick up in loan business by November 1st (minimum 3% ROI monthly), I would like to see TS look at running a vote in November on liquidation.
There have been lots of constructive advice in this post and a few other ones during the handover, and you have now implemented your business plan. If its still not working after a few months something has to change.
I will shut up till November 1st report.
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Treelox See I just do not get how you can be so unable to get the word out. You already have 2 huge vehicles to do it with.
Why not crosspromote ammong the 3 BIG ventures. It seems so simple. For 100m isk I'll lay out the whole plan.
I have been saying for years that a link-share between BIG's various websites was needed. I even wrote the layout required, short of writing the HTML for TS I couldn't have made it easier. Please, do this.
I'm thinking a bit more than that, but that is just the begining. --
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TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.10 17:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Treelox Although I think TS should of just put it in the intial report, without doing that it does seem like something was trying to be hiden.
C'mon... I did put it there, that's how you noticed... But no, I didnt make a BIG Deal out of it.
Same as I've (until now) not mentioned, that sales of treasury shares (4 in all) also took place.
There's no winning with you lot is there...
BIG Lottery |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2008.09.10 17:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Treelox Although I think TS should of just put it in the intial report, without doing that it does seem like something was trying to be hiden.
C'mon... I did put it there, that's how you noticed... But no, I didnt make a BIG Deal out of it.
Same as I've (until now) not mentioned, that sales of treasury shares (4 in all) also took place.
There's no winning with you lot is there...
Yeah, it's funny how people want things when you're holding on to their money.
(*lawnchair* *popcorn* *cooler*)
have love, willing to give it industrially .CCPGinger |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.10 20:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ramblin Man Yeah, it's funny how people want things when you're holding on to their money.
^^^ This As to Ray's shares, not inside trading at all. If this is as golden as the handshake gets, especially considering the stellar job Ray did, then Ray's severance package was way under value. But it is entirely reasonable for some sort of share buyout to be made of a leaving executive. The failure to report is simply a symptom of changing management. (Of course an alt troll going on about FA is not inclined to listen, or speak, reason at all.) It is also likely the fact that Torn does not realize that times have totally changed. Autocratic is not a commonly accepted style of management by today's investors. Doesn't make a difference how much your original ipo said, "We make all decisions" investors will speak, shout and scream until they are heeded. Three years has seen this market grow, change, evolve, and mature to the point that what BMBE said it would be, and the lines it drew in the sand, are not in line with contemporary values or capabilities. Adapt or die. Seems dying can take years though.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.10 23:09:00 -
[68]
Edited by: TornSoul on 10/09/2008 23:10:00
Originally by: Shar Tegral The failure to report is simply a symptom of changing management.
Grrr... *What* failure to report? There was no failure of report - The numbers where there for all to see. Else how could it have been brought up in the first place...
However: -Each individual trade was not listed. -The names of each individual involved wasnt either.
But has anyone ever seen, say Ray, do that?
I report the final numbers - But definatly not the involved parties, that's for them to do if they so wish.
So what excactly wasnt reported???
BIG Lottery |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.10 23:26:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Shar Tegral The failure to report is simply a symptom of changing management.
Originally by: TornSoul Grrr... *What* failure to report? There was no failure of report - The numbers where there for all to see. Else how could it have been brought up in the first place...y, do that? {...} I report the final numbers - But definatly not the involved parties, that's for them to do if they so wish.
Thus my point about adamantite skull. It is not worth my time to get into a lengthy debate regarding good vs bad investor relations or good vs bad governance. However if one puts numbers in a report that is going to raise eyebrows, like buybacks when no buybacks are offered, one needs to expect that it will raise questions and seem like a "failure to report". You've an annoying level of arrogance that comes from not being required to give the money back to anyone you know that? Instead let me ask you this question: Do you intend on returning the money back to investors? Ever, that is. Because it is becoming to seem like you are running the longest lasting scam in Eve. /me washes his hands.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Bluebeard
Minmatar LoneStar Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.10 23:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 10/09/2008 23:10:00
Originally by: Shar Tegral The failure to report is simply a symptom of changing management.
Grrr... *What* failure to report? There was no failure of report - The numbers where there for all to see.
There is such a thing called 'A lie of omission' Reporting a lower number of shares than there can possibly be (due to there being no buybacks) and waiting to see if the shareholders spot the new figure, is not good form.
Normal transactions should be lumped together. Exceptional transactions, which this buyback is, should always be detailed.
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TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:26:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Bluebeard Normal transactions should be lumped together. Exceptional transactions, which this buyback is, should always be detailed.
That's a reasonable way of putting it. Noted.
But how I'd have done that without disclosing client priveledge in this case is beyond me.
BIG Lottery |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:54:00 -
[72]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Bluebeard Normal transactions should be lumped together. Exceptional transactions, which this buyback is, should always be detailed.
That's a reasonable way of putting it. Noted.
But how I'd have done that without disclosing client priveledge in this case is beyond me.
But that is what made it "extraordinary", it was not done because he was a client, but because he was the past manager. Leaving out that information, would make it seem like you were preforming something for a "regular" client. Which would have ment that your statement last month of no buy backs was a lie.
Still you could of done it without naming names. You could of just said that it was a buy back obligated under the old manangement, and not named who it was those shares had really come from.
OFC to bring up some really old stuff, I have always thought you taken "client priveledge" to the extreme. <cough> defaulted loans with skiffs as collateral. </cough> --
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amarrcommander
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Posted - 2008.09.11 14:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Bluebeard Normal transactions should be lumped together. Exceptional transactions, which this buyback is, should always be detailed.
That's a reasonable way of putting it. Noted.
But how I'd have done that without disclosing client priveledge in this case is beyond me.
But that is what made it "extraordinary", it was not done because he was a client, but because he was the past manager. Leaving out that information, would make it seem like you were preforming something for a "regular" client. Which would have ment that your statement last month of no buy backs was a lie.
Still you could of done it without naming names. You could of just said that it was a buy back obligated under the old manangement, and not named who it was those shares had really come from.
OFC to bring up some really old stuff, I have always thought you taken "client priveledge" to the extreme. <cough> defaulted loans with skiffs as collateral. </cough>
What ever do you mean? This IPO takes zero risk with it's share holders isk, that Skiff BS was just our imaginaiton. |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.11 17:31:00 -
[74]
Edited by: TornSoul on 11/09/2008 17:31:11
Originally by: Treelox Still you could of done it without naming names. You could of just said that it was a buy back obligated under the old manangement, and not named who it was those shares had really come from.
One thing I never do - I just don't - is lie. And that suggestion at least borders on the line of being one. It could be argued not to be I guess - But would (for my consciense) be a close call. But yes, doing it that way would have saved alot of posts here...
Originally by: Treelox
I have always thought you taken "client priveledge" to the extreme.
Thank you for noticing
Comes with the adamantium skull I'm afraid.
BIG Lottery |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.11 20:56:00 -
[75]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Treelox
I have always thought you taken "client priveledge" to the extreme.
Thank you for noticing
Comes with the adamantium skull I'm afraid.
Wish you cared about those that have invested in you nearly half as much as your "clients"..... --
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IonHammer
Minmatar Black Avatar Lost Sheep Domain
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Posted - 2008.09.12 01:17:00 -
[76]
Edited by: IonHammer on 12/09/2008 01:18:04 Holy cow, over the years I don't think I have seen so much talk about something that well really is between (a) us, investor's and (b) the management or in this case BMBE.
Simply put I trust TS I trust Ray.
Would I invest in this type of BPO again, No.
This is beacause based on experience with BMBE I would prefer a predefined exit stategy and I would prefer to have a investor representitive on the board.
That is to say what happens if things don't work or the IPO function begins to drift, I believe this did happen with BMBE, when Ray took over we became more of a merchant bank as opposed to a retail bank.
Further, invention has had a direct impact on the banks core sector.
These factors together with leadership RL issues has affected the performance of BMBE.
Do I want to sell my shares, no, I am not a fair weather investor.
To TS good luck matey maybe we can go into Titan speculation :)
If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith |
herot
Fortunis - Redux
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:35:00 -
[77]
First, I feel that itĘs sometimes forgotten that there are often more motivations to investments than pure profit. In this particular case I myself at least, also find it rewarding that we together actually can keep an economic system, with banks offering loans (even savings accounts for the competition) up and running. To keep a degree of diversity in this market IĘm willing to accept a lower return than the maximal achievable through other bonds (after all, if I only wanted maximum return I would probably be better of using the money for my own trade activities).
On to suggestionsą
Since the BMBE now has over 400 treasury shares sitting idle, wouldnĘt it be a good idea to put some of them up for sale at NAV on RSEX or EGSE? Or just starting a sales thread to that effect on the forums (could be linked to in the monthly reports). This would again increase the capital available for potential loans, and also widen the stockholder base. Alternatively the shares could be offered at 1-3% below NAV, sort of a free first dividend to attract buyers (some might consider this to much like giving away the current stockholders money though)
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:55:00 -
[78]
Originally by: herot Since the BMBE now has over 400 treasury shares sitting idle, wouldnĘt it be a good idea to put some of them up for sale at NAV on RSEX or EGSE?
Can you give reasoning behind this? The current BMBE problem is that it cannot utilise the current capital on hand and your solution is to raise more capital that won't be used?
If they were maxed out on loans it might be another story but with 50-100b idle I don't believe this would be the case at the current point in time |
Callan Skiderlar
LIfeline Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:40:00 -
[79]
Real shareholder speaking here.
It seems like every month, we get the same flamefest. There is clearly a dissatisfied segment of the shareholder base. There also appears to be a large portion of capital that's unused. Why not take some of the funds and run a reverse auction to buy back shares? Share sellers can offer share numbers and a sell price, and you buy from lowest price to highest until you run out of money. It should be a good deal for the remaining shareholders since it should come at a discount to NAV (considering the lack of confidence among the vocal dissatisfied faction), and it would give the dissatisfied holders an out. Perhaps this was suggested previously, but it just seems an obvious choice here.
In terms of performance, I think the business needs to look at options that introduce a little more risk - not a lot, just a little. You need to take risks to generate greater rewards. The initial proposition basically took advantage of BMBE being the largest aggregation of capital and betting on that mass aggregation of capital unlocking no-risk/high reward business opportunities. The market has changed to where there's not enough opportunity to put the capital in play.
The tough part here is that BMBE does not have a lot of labor. It has a good name and a big pot of cash, but the options there are few and far between, especially with no risk tolerance.
Maybe there's an opportunity to add more risk to the clients, who might feel protected by BMBE's reputation, which might let BMBE lower its collateralization requirements. For example, selected corps or alliances might be eligible for a 70% collateral requirement if they allow BMBE to add an alt as a director. It's not perfect, but the combined threat of name-and-shame, wallet draining, or general deterrant of potential punitive measures would be enough to make up for the 30% (or whatever reduction brings in more loans).
Generally speaking, I think BMBE should seek to emulate Chribba's succes in trading on his reputation. That's an unused asset for this business that might help get the isk working in some fashion. ---
"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." - John Keynes |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.09.13 01:24:00 -
[80]
The problem I see with BMBE is that because they have been inactive, EBank has taken away a good portion of the loan business. If the rates are about equal, EBank will get the loan every time. This has made it truly difficult for BMBE, and I don't believe going under 2% per week (8% per month) is a good idea.
From an investment perspective and if I was a neutral investor buying some shares, there are minimum requirements I need. I can make 3% per month with EBank or 4.5% with Rays bonds, and these are about the safest investments in Eve.
So as an investor I require a return above Ray, so 5% ROI should be the minimum. So using this baseline valuing BMBE shares should be fairly easy (in an investment perspective).
At current divs divs = 326-500M per month Value of business from a buyer perspective = 10B (20 x divs = 100%) current NAV = 124B Current share value = 79M Buying perspective = 6.5M per share
At divs with 30B loaned at 8% I see 30B loaned out as best case scenario on a monthly basis divs would be = 3B per month (2.4B from loan and 600M from other sources) Value of business from a buyer perspective = 60B (20 x 5% = 100) current NAV = 124B Current share value = 79M Buying perspective = 40M per share
Due to the fact there is no buyback, there is a limit on what the shares are worth. In the best case scenario where TS loans out half the spare capital the company is only worth about 60B, which is less than the cash on hand. This is the main reason in my opinion that the cash in the wallet should be returned to the shareholders.
If anyone would invest at NAV -10% then they must be mad because it would take nearly 30 RL years to get the cash back at current NAV, and 3 RL years at best case scenario.
Now I would like either Ray / TS to come up with some figures that really prove that BMBE could be a viable business again, and if Ray realistically thinks BMBE will div greater than his Ray bonds at 4.5%. I would also like to see his numbers how this can be achieved.
So far the only statements coming out of BMBE have been soliciting suggestions about what to do with BMBE, but TS has not provided any numbers of where he thinks BMBE will end up or with what dividend profile.
I wonder what your best case scenario is?
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.09.13 07:11:00 -
[81]
Originally by: cosmoray I see 30B loaned out as best case scenario on a monthly basis
How, why? What is your basis for this guesstimate? Here are the previously recorded loan averages.
Quote: 2008-04-0121,222,419,354.84 2008-03-0139,162,741,935.48 2008-02-0153,898,225,806.45 2008-01-0139,204,677,419.35 2007-12-0142,690,161,290.32 2007-11-0163,700,806,451.61 2007-10-0164,685,806,451.61 2007-09-0150,738,548,387.10 2007-08-0155,936,935,483.87 2007-07-0150,668,387,096.77 2007-06-010.00 (estimated at 50b+) 2007-05-0141,395,833,333.00 2007-04-0153,630,322,581.00
I could analyse the patterns in that and tie in some of the rises and declines to the timeline of my own life. The slumps highlight the difficult patches where EVE took a back seat, and the peaks coincide with an increase in my activity on the forums and in-game.
So the first thing the BMBE should do is increase its activity and availability. Add additional brokers to the base. Additionally the BMBE needs to increase its exposure through advertising, joint ventures and a WTS thread. These two are mutually dependant on each other, you cannot have one without t'other.
With regards to expected return and future forecasting; there's no reason why the previous levels cannot be exceeded.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.09.13 07:29:00 -
[82]
Originally by: cosmoray Now I would like either Ray / TS to come up with some figures that really prove that BMBE could be a viable business again, and if Ray realistically thinks BMBE will div greater than his Ray bonds at 4.5%. I would also like to see his numbers how this can be achieved.
Historical BMBE Figures
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herot
Fortunis - Redux
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Posted - 2008.09.15 18:42:00 -
[83]
Any news on when the august dividend will be payed out?
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TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:39:00 -
[84]
Yeah, sorry about that, got a little snafu with roles of an alt.
Being worked on.
BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.17 19:30:00 -
[85]
Div's paid.
BIG Lottery |
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