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Flash Bombardo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.10 07:44:00 -
[61]
I put it to you all that the large hadron collider is a complete waste of money and will not benefit me or you in the slightest fashion. Other than answering a question in a very rarified school of physics I fail utterly to see the point in it other than a big science toy.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:00:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich FOOL! The world ends in 2012. And thanks a lot for sending yet another Hardon Collider thread to OOPE.
HADRON
NOT
HARDON
I will now be calling it the large hardon collider for ever and ever and ever, because I can't believe that thought hadn't already occured to me. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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kworld
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:06:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Katana Seiko
It takes a while till the black hole ate enough to finally start eating the earth... Maybe it just takes till 2012 till we notice the first effects...
Rofl wasnt it meant to be planet x to end to world in 2012 you lot are funny also wasnt the atomic bomb meant to end the world? Atleast this tech will also allow an insight into interseteller travel.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:31:00 -
[64]
The argument to refute the dangers of the LHC with pointing at cosmic particles with energies million of times higher than those at the LHC is invalid.
Why?
Let assume us that an impact with high enough energies will cause mini-black holes.
Cosmic particles are moving that fast (that is why they have so high energies) that they cross the whole earth within milliseconds. A resulting mini-black hole would move at the same speed. Not really much time to interact with anything.
The particles at the LHC are created in such a way that a resulting mini-black hole would move very slowly - two particles with more or less exact speed in opposite direction collide there. The speed after the impact (if a black hole would be created) would be very low then. Lots and lots of time to interact with surrounding matter.
Now people talk about hawking-radiation which will let these mini-black holes evaporate within a really short short timeframe. However, this hawking-radiation is just a very vague theory, it is not at all proved or even supported by any experiment or observation. So, really nothing you can seriously use as argument.
To argue that mini-black holes from cosmic particles didn't gobble up the earth, moon, sun or whatever is therefore no refutation of the argument that the LHC mini-black holes could devour the earth and surroundings.
However, there are many observations, experiments and good theories around which says that no black holes are created anyway. So, no worries.
Everything goes fine, the world will end 2012, we still have some years left.
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Ker HarSol
Minmatar Zip - I
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:37:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Flash Bombardo I put it to you all that the large hadron collider is a complete waste of money and will not benefit me or you in the slightest fashion.
But you do know that they invented the WWW at Cern there, right?
You do know that they invented grid computing there, right?
And you know that they are still working heavily on these things and internet 3.0, right?
Me and everyone who uses the internet is heavily affected by what those people did and are doing.
But well, ignorance is a bliss, or so they say |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:38:00 -
[66]
Its on and the sun is shining with a clear blue sky in the UK.
I like this side effect
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Edeard Black
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:43:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Flash Bombardo I put it to you all that the large hadron collider is a complete waste of money and will not benefit me or you in the slightest fashion. Other than answering a question in a very rarified school of physics I fail utterly to see the point in it other than a big science toy.
Of course, the secrets of the universe aren't worth knowing. I'm sure you speak for a lot of boring old cynics, but then if we listened to them the world would still be flat.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.10 08:53:00 -
[68]
They've made 1 beam go all the way round now...
also what about the Rainbow effect -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Aclyn Seriy
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:00:00 -
[69]
Originally by: RaTTuS They've made 1 beam go all the way round now...
also what about the Rainbow effect
Holy shit, Zippy, George and Bungle are helping to run the LHC???
Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
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Sombike
Caldari Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:12:00 -
[70]
Originally by: robbyx Apparently its just going to be some sort of dance party.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
That's freaking impressive :D
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Confuzer
Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:19:00 -
[71]
OMG
We just lost all contact with Geneve! ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
heheheh
PedoHamma
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:56:00 -
[72]
just shows how screwed the world is, spending billions on this pile of crap instead of putting the money to good use.
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Mephistophilis
Domination.
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:19:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy
Originally by: RaTTuS They've made 1 beam go all the way round now...
also what about the Rainbow effect
Holy shit, Zippy, George and Bungle are helping to run the LHC???
NOW i'm interested!
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:30:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Zeba Hmm been 10 minutes. Does black hole creation suffer from lag?
/thread
Slade
Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine.
DesuSigs
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Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:50:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 10/09/2008 02:15:43
Originally by: Plim
Actually it is precisely the energy levels involved in the collision which would determine whether a singularity would be created. It requires a great deal of force to collapse matter to a point of infinite density.
This is why a star has to be so large (approx 1.6+ solar masses according to Penrose in The Road to Reality) to collapse into a black hole. The gravitational force has to be great enough to overcome particle degeneracy pressure, it requires a huge amount of force.
Again, it isn't the amount of energy, but the amount of energy per unit of volume in the system. Actually it is a lot more complicated than this, but in a very simplified way it is the DENSITY of energy.
As I said...
You just quoted my text to say absolutely nothing relevant about it.
No offense, but you seem to have completely missed the point.
I am aware of what density means, it regards the amount of mass/energy within any given volume.
As I explained, the energy in the collision is relevant to the creation of a black hole, because it is the energy of the collision which creates the force required to exceed particle degeneracy pressure and actually create that amount of density. This is why I gave the example (from Roger Penrose) of the size of star required to exceed the Chandresekhar limit, to highlight the amount of force required.
There is a reason why you don't create a black hole when you hit a ball with a bat.
What I said was perfectly relevant. You stated that the energy involved in the collision does not contribute to the creation of a black hole, but simply the density levels (how else do you think something gets to being that dense?). This is incorrect, because it is the energy levels (the momentum of the particles when the collide) which produce the force required to create a black hole. Which is exactly what was meant by the person earlier on in the thread, when they commented on cosmic particle collisions being millions of times more energetic than what would be witnessed in the LHC.
You are correct to state that it is the level of density which defines a black hole, what we were talking about is how they could be made, hence the relevance in this case of the energies involved in particle collision.
Quote: Your figures for energy are wrong. A mathematical equivalent of a blackole was already formed in the Heavy Ion Collider, which is surpassed by the LHC in size and capabilities. It was harmless as it dissipated by Hawkings radiations in fractions of a second.
The initial strength, small as it may be is increasing as the phenom absorbs mass, though. If it didn't collapse it would grow in mass and stregth exponentially and although it would take time, it would be capable to absorbing all mass on earth. Fortunatelly these phenomena are short lived and, again, as far as we know, they don't represent any threat.
Which figures were wrong? The only figures I provided regarding black hole mass, were from someone working on the LHC who I briefly talked to through thier youtube channel, you can work it out yourself with the Swartzchild radius. My figures were wrong, before he fixed them. You could argue that my figures regarding proton mass were incorrect in regards to the LHC though, because I stated their rest mass, not their mass when accelerated to 99.9999991% of the speed of light.
Your comment about a mathematical equivalent of a black hole forming in the RHIC is misleading. The conditions in the RHIC would have been a vague analogy of a black hole at best (it is discussed in the last paragraph here), not an equivolence and certainly not experimental evidence for Hawking radiation as you implied, which would have been widely discussed within the scientific community.
Again, I am in agreement that the LHC is no threat.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gnulpie The argument to refute the dangers of the LHC with pointing at cosmic particles with energies million of times higher than those at the LHC is invalid.
Why?
Let assume us that an impact with high enough energies will cause mini-black holes.
Cosmic particles are moving that fast (that is why they have so high energies) that they cross the whole earth within milliseconds. A resulting mini-black hole would move at the same speed. Not really much time to interact with anything.
The particles at the LHC are created in such a way that a resulting mini-black hole would move very slowly - two particles with more or less exact speed in opposite direction collide there. The speed after the impact (if a black hole would be created) would be very low then. Lots and lots of time to interact with surrounding matter.
Now people talk about hawking-radiation which will let these mini-black holes evaporate within a really short short timeframe. However, this hawking-radiation is just a very vague theory, it is not at all proved or even supported by any experiment or observation. So, really nothing you can seriously use as argument.
To argue that mini-black holes from cosmic particles didn't gobble up the earth, moon, sun or whatever is therefore no refutation of the argument that the LHC mini-black holes could devour the earth and surroundings.
However, there are many observations, experiments and good theories around which says that no black holes are created anyway. So, no worries.
Everything goes fine, the world will end 2012, we still have some years left.
"LHC collisions will differ from cosmic-ray collisions in that any exotic particles created will have lower velocities, but the Safety Assessment Group shows that even fast-moving black holes produced by cosmic rays would have stopped inside the Earth or other astronomical bodies. Their existence proves that any such black holes could not gobble matter at a risky rate. "
http://www.physorg.com/news139810863.html
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
The TX
Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:57:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: People Person I'm reading elevated levels of... no, no its OK, its well within acceptable parameters. Lets continue the experiment...
lol - IBTEOTW.
LOL!
(It means In Before The End Of The World, fyi)
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The TX
Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.09.10 12:57:00 -
[78]
Large HARDON Collider! ROFL!!!
-------------------- [Signature]
[/Signature]
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.10 15:09:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Plim
"LHC collisions will differ from cosmic-ray collisions in that any exotic particles created will have lower velocities, but the Safety Assessment Group shows that even fast-moving black holes produced by cosmic rays would have stopped inside the Earth or other astronomical bodies. Their existence proves that any such black holes could not gobble matter at a risky rate. "
http://www.physorg.com/news139810863.html
Sorry, but that argument doesn't prove anything but only that not ALL stellar bodies are consumed by mini-black holes. It is certainly NOT a proof, that such a mechanism is impossible because if mini-black holes exist and if they consumed a stellar object, how would be know about that? We can't.
Also the argument in the link about the speed is just rabble-talk without any substance. The escape velocity from earth is 11 km/s. Those cosmic particles move really close to 300.000 km/s, the remaining particles from a collision move also with nearly that speed - that is why we can detect them here on the ground.
Some of the particles produced by LHC will move only with few m/s. Quite a big difference.
The thing is, no one KNOWS what will happen. That is why there are these experiments. If it would be known what would happen, then it wouldn't be necessary to make any experiments and the whole LHC would be completely useless. The exact point of the LHC is to give us data which enables us to form a new and better theory.
To argue and extrapolate the known theory into areas where those theories are completely untested and maybe where they are probably not valid is not science but just rabble talk. Not that I care about if the LHC is running or not, just I hate those hypocrits.
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2008.09.10 18:38:00 -
[80]
if you work in cryo or vacuum, theres jobs tho ! :p ------
Tides of Silence |
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Sharupak
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.10 18:43:00 -
[81]
OMG! It's happening! I just logged in and there was Lag in Jita!...oh wait, nvm its bullshit! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:30:00 -
[82]
real time info !
www.hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com ------
Tides of Silence |
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