Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 .. 181 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kallynda Nai
Tightpants Inc
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:15:00 -
[3751] - Quote
Lt Pizi wrote:Orkasm wrote:No they haven't, Mittani did nothing ingame that would constitute a break of ToS or EULA. are you in the denial state ? csm represents eve and CCP, look it up theres more than the TOS/EULA beside that , they can exclude you from their service WITHOUT giving any reason at all
The CSM agreement has already been invoked and dismissed in another thread. It doesn't matter how much you wish it were so, the EULA/TOS does not apply in this instance. |
Bane Necran
196
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:15:00 -
[3752] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dragging his name through the mud across as many news sites as you can
I don't agree with that, nor do i agree with anyone dragging EVE through the mud in the media like our friendly neighborhood goons have happily done.
However, if he had actually resigned days ago like he said he would, none of that would have happened. This entire thing would have been long over if he didn't like the attention so much. He's just suffering for his vanity at this point. |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:19:00 -
[3753] - Quote
Giuliano Verti wrote:Lt Pizi wrote:Orkasm wrote:No they haven't, Mittani did nothing ingame that would constitute a break of ToS or EULA. are you in the denial state ? csm represents eve and CCP, look it up theres more than the TOS/EULA beside that , they can exclude you from their service WITHOUT giving any reason at all And in CCP HQ... and in a CCP sanctioned event... and in a CCP live broadscast....
lol not their HQ
not proofread by them
LIVE is the key here , nothing they can do |
de4deye
Mortis Angelus Northern Coalition.
136
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:19:00 -
[3754] - Quote
So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself? |
Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:20:00 -
[3755] - Quote
Giuliano Verti wrote:Lt Pizi wrote:Orkasm wrote:No they haven't, Mittani did nothing ingame that would constitute a break of ToS or EULA. are you in the denial state ? csm represents eve and CCP, look it up theres more than the TOS/EULA beside that , they can exclude you from their service WITHOUT giving any reason at all And in CCP HQ... and in a CCP sanctioned event... and in a CCP live broadscast....
If you want to catch for every letter of TOS/EULA: TOS/EULA saying that its applying for things on their server/web page/forums. Stream came from their server/web page. |
Abriael VonRosen
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:20:00 -
[3756] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Dragging his name through the mud across as many news sites as you can is not worse than making a drunken bad joke at an event where nothing said is expected to be taken seriously and would have been qquickly forgotten about if not for the white knighter and people with an axe to grind?
Sorry to burst a silly little bubble here, but the only one that dragged his name through the mud (and the name of the CSM, CCP and ultimately this community) across as many news sites as possible is Mittani himself, with his actions.
The press will react ad report on what happened, and the readers will judge. As a gaming writer myself, I'm refraining from writing about it for the simple fact that I don't feel that this community deserves the stigma of being represented by someone able to do this kind of aberrant actions, and that's exactly why Mittani should take responsibility and resign, or he CCP should force him to. He gave a bad name to us all, and while the goons might not care (since they have a bad name anyway), quite evidently there are many that do.
|
Magnus Orin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:20:00 -
[3757] - Quote
The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve.
Still no breach of the TOS/EULA, which is required for your "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion"
The end part, which discussion societal rules is completely up for interpretation, and doesn't seem partnered with above clause. The key word here is should.
|
Orkasm
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:20:00 -
[3758] - Quote
de4deye wrote:So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself?
Feel free to, im sure he'll tell you to **** off and leave it at that. |
Villanor
Polaris Rising
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:21:00 -
[3759] - Quote
Somebody was drunk and made a joke that came out entirely different than intended. He has apologized and has given the person all his isk.
Now everybody and his brother who has a personal vendetta against The Mittani is jumping on the bandwagon and using his mistake as an excuse to further their own interests.
Being drunk is not an excuse for saying bad things. He accepts this and is apologizing.
Calling for his resignation does not in any way further reparations being made. This is simply a punishment that those who dislike The Mittani want to see put in place because this seems like a good opportunity to make it happen.
Actions do speak louder than words, if you actually care about this miner send him a convo in game and talk to him for a couple minutes about anything. If all you really want is an excuse to be mad and call for the resignation of the "Big Bad Villain" then carry on. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1636
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:21:00 -
[3760] - Quote
de4deye wrote:So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself?
I woudln't if I were you, you'll probably get banned.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
|
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:21:00 -
[3761] - Quote
Kallynda Nai wrote:Lt Pizi wrote:Orkasm wrote:No they haven't, Mittani did nothing ingame that would constitute a break of ToS or EULA. are you in the denial state ? csm represents eve and CCP, look it up theres more than the TOS/EULA beside that , they can exclude you from their service WITHOUT giving any reason at all The CSM agreement has already been invoked and dismissed in another thread. It doesn't matter how much you wish it were so, the EULA/TOS does not apply in this instance.
how can a BAN WITHOUT reason or guilt not apply ? if CCP wishes him gone hes out ... |
de4deye
Mortis Angelus Northern Coalition.
136
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:22:00 -
[3762] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:de4deye wrote:So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself? I woudln't if I were you, you'll probably get banned. What If I tell a big group of other people to try to convince him to kill himself? Is that ok? |
Blatant Forum Alt
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:22:00 -
[3763] - Quote
The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve.
Digging through my mains mails, I have 14 direct death threats to me, 6 direct death threats to me and my immediate family, and 9 vague threats of vengance. I presume these will all be banned too, if CCP ban Mittens?
|
Tim Sebo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:22:00 -
[3764] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:de4deye wrote:Magnus Orin wrote:de4deye wrote:If Mittani cared, he would: - Step down from CSM all together - Tell his zerglings to quit being badposters on the forums and tell them to quit posting with npc alts - Biomass his character - Never come back
No one is fooled by his crappy apology. Titans will still be nerfed no matter what The Mittani does. Who cares? Lol I don't even own a titan. Is this all goons have on their mind? This seems to be the only response goons can gather for everything I say, sad to be you. Does it help if I admit to owning a titan and saying having them nerfed to hell is one of the better things Alexander managed? (still doesn't excuse fanfest) but I'm not going to say he was completely rubbish.
Except they're not getting nerfed anymore. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1636
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:23:00 -
[3765] - Quote
Magnus Orin wrote:The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve. Still no breach of the TOS/EULA, which is required for your "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" The end part, which discussion societal rules is completely up for interpretation, and doesn't seem partnered with above clause. The key word here is should.
I underlined the bit that you outrageously editorialized to make your leaky argument appear to hold water.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Kallynda Nai
Tightpants Inc
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:23:00 -
[3766] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:de4deye wrote:So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself? I woudln't if I were you, you'll probably get banned. Too late. He's already encouraged others to kill The Mittani with fire. |
Bane Necran
197
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:23:00 -
[3767] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:days ago you mean yesterday when he arrived home.
The OP was made over 40 hours ago. Certainly closer to multiple days than just one. |
Magnus Orin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:24:00 -
[3768] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Quote: How about you cite your sources and provide evidence of your claims with a link. bloody hell READ THE TOS. http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asppoints 25 and 26 .... Namely Quote: 25. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userGÇÖs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
26. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
Would it help if we could use a larger font?
Oh god you are dense. Of course CCP can take anyone's access to the game away. It's their game. No one is arguing that.
Which part of the TOS/EULA were specifically broken, to warrant such dismissal and exclusion?
Using your logic, I could argue that CCP should now permanently ban your account(s) simply because of your exceedingly low intelligence. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
662
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:26:00 -
[3769] - Quote
I also would like to point out that Alex never slurs or stumble about. At 3:20 seconds of this video the following was said:
"I, uh, suppose I'm not drunk enough." - Alex
"No your not, I can hear your words clearly." - Someone in the audience or panel
Which is correct. His entire presentation was very understandable with no word slurring or anything that would be signs of being drunk. What everyone here is assuming is he must have been drunk to say what he did about making The Wis kill himself. Alex even spells his name out with clarity and making sure no one misspells it with the letter Z.
|
Magnus Orin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:27:00 -
[3770] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Magnus Orin wrote:The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve. Still no breach of the TOS/EULA, which is required for your "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" The end part, which discussion societal rules is completely up for interpretation, and doesn't seem partnered with above clause. The key word here is should. I underlined the bit that you outrageously editorialized to make your leaky argument appear to hold water.
Again... CCP can arbitrarily ban anyone they want, including you. But why would they? For being a ****, out of game? You've obviously never been to Fanfest have you?
|
|
de4deye
Mortis Angelus Northern Coalition.
141
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:28:00 -
[3771] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I also would like to point out that Alex never slurs or stumble about. At 3:20 seconds of this video the following was said: "I, uh, suppose I'm not drunk enough." - Alex "No your not, I can hear your words clearly." - Someone in the audience or panel Which is correct. His entire presentation was very understandable with no word slurring or anything that would be signs of being drunk. What everyone here is assuming is he must have been drunk to say what he did about making The Wis kill himself. Alex even spells his name out with clarity and making sure no one misspells it with the letter Z. That's because he wasn't drunk - he's just an asshat. |
Lenrir Andven
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:29:00 -
[3772] - Quote
de4deye wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I also would like to point out that Alex never slurs or stumble about. At 3:20 seconds of this video the following was said: "I, uh, suppose I'm not drunk enough." - Alex "No your not, I can hear your words clearly." - Someone in the audience or panel Which is correct. His entire presentation was very understandable with no word slurring or anything that would be signs of being drunk. What everyone here is assuming is he must have been drunk to say what he did about making The Wis kill himself. Alex even spells his name out with clarity and making sure no one misspells it with the letter Z. That's because he wasn't drunk - he's just an asshat.
Still mad about the 3 Titans we popped last weekend NC? |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:30:00 -
[3773] - Quote
Kallynda Nai wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:de4deye wrote:So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself? I woudln't if I were you, you'll probably get banned. Too late. He's already encouraged others to kill The Mittani with fire.
What about earth and wind ?
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1640
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:30:00 -
[3774] - Quote
Magnus Orin wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Quote: How about you cite your sources and provide evidence of your claims with a link. bloody hell READ THE TOS. http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asppoints 25 and 26 .... Namely Quote: 25. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userGÇÖs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
26. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
Would it help if we could use a larger font? Oh god you are dense. Of course CCP can take anyone's access to the game away. It's their game. No one is arguing that. Which part of the TOS/EULA were specifically broken, to warrant such dismissal and exclusion? Using your logic, I could argue that CCP should now permanently ban your account(s) simply because of your exceedingly low intelligence.
If my "exceedingly low intelligence" had led me to drink more alchohol than the cast of jersey shore combined and stagger up on a stage at fanfest before putting on a wizards hat and commanding my minions to harrass an eve player to suicide to the jeers of fellow beered-up lightweights then yes. I think CCP should propably consider banning my accounts and thats kinda the point.
But the point you are struggling to comprehend is that you don't need a specific written term in the tos to be broken to invoke the general "we reserve our right to boot someone out regardless" clause.
Its a similar convention landlords have in pubs.
Now you might well go into a tavern painted with blue and white stripes and leap up a table and show your behind to scandalized female guests and argue the publican has no right to evict you because there is no specific bylaw against stripey-mooning in that particular bar.
But you will be laughed at. Just as you are being laughed at now.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:31:00 -
[3775] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Kallynda Nai wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:[quote=de4deye]So I am assuming it is ok to tell Mittani to kill himself? I woudln't if I were you, you'll probably get banned. Too late. He's already encouraged others to kill The Mittani with fire.
What about earth and wind ? we should be encouraging equal opportunities on here... |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
453
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:31:00 -
[3776] - Quote
Magnus Orin wrote:The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve. Still no breach of the TOS/EULA, which is required for your "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" The end part, which discussion societal rules is completely up for interpretation, and doesn't seem partnered with above clause. The key word here is should.
That's not exactly the entire EULA/TOS, is it? I'm pretty sure somewhere in the EULA there is a clause that says basically "if you adversely affect our service you're gone" which could be applied to someone farting and causing a room of Eve players to have to vacate until it dissipates.
Unlikely though it may be applied in such a fashion, Mitanni has done far worse either.
We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
403
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:31:00 -
[3777] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve. Digging through my mains mails, I have 14 direct death threats to me, 6 direct death threats to me and my immediate family, and 9 vague threats of vengance. I presume these will all be banned too, if CCP ban Mittens?
They should be, report them already and or call the local authorities.
|
baltec1
915
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:31:00 -
[3778] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I also would like to point out that Alex never slurs or stumble about. At 3:20 seconds of this video the following was said: "I, uh, suppose I'm not drunk enough." - Alex "No your not, I can hear your words clearly." - Someone in the audience or panel Which is correct. His entire presentation was very understandable with no word slurring or anything that would be signs of being drunk. What everyone here is assuming is he must have been drunk to say what he did about making The Wis kill himself. Alex even spells his name out with clarity and making sure no one misspells it with the letter Z.
I too can spell a three letter word and not slur my words when drunk. |
Abriael VonRosen
State War Academy Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:31:00 -
[3779] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The fact that most of them got it from an anti-GSF blog site and all of them were mailed by anti-Mittani white knighters has of corse nothing at all to do with it.
Can you prove that? I for one came across this unsightly mess by myself, and just chose not to report on it for the reasons I already explained. Gaming news reporting (and editorial writing) is an extremely competitive business. Write scrape the bottom of the barrel for hours each days to find juicy morsels as this one. Believing that they would have not noticed by themselves is naive at best, disingenuous at worst.
Ultimately, Mittani had absolutely no problems with dragging CCP's name in the mud across the whole gaming press when it suited his agenda. He even boasted about it multiple times. As I already said, what goes 'round comes 'round. I doubt anyone has any right to complain about the press coming back and biting him in the rear. |
Magnus Orin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 16:34:00 -
[3780] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Magnus Orin wrote:The Breadmaster wrote:The CSM published by CCPExcerpt from page 20 of the linked CCP document- CSM REPRESENTATIVE CONDUCT any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the eula or tos by a Csm representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. ____ This sounds pretty clear cut to me. Unless we don't play by these rules anymore? "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" Policies are created to insure all players are treated fairly and equally. We can't begin making exceptions to one without eliminating the rule altogether. What kind of publicity will EVE receive if he or any future player does commit suicide? The media will look back on this incident and see how the company handeled it which could open them up for future liability. Any player regardless of alliance affiliation needs to understand the gravity of this situation outside of the context of Eve. This is a situation that could end Eve. Still no breach of the TOS/EULA, which is required for your "immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion" The end part, which discussion societal rules is completely up for interpretation, and doesn't seem partnered with above clause. The key word here is should. That's not exactly the entire EULA/TOS, is it? I'm pretty sure somewhere in the EULA there is a clause that says basically "if you adversely affect our service you're gone" which could be applied to someone farting and causing a room of Eve players to have to vacate until it dissipates. Unlikely though it may be applied in such a fashion, Mitanni has done far worse either.
I'd wager Eve probably saw a small increase in subscriptions because of this 'scandal'
If you can prove a financial loss for CCP, by all means, I love to read. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 .. 181 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |