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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Leviathan9
Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:56:00 -
[121]
Quote: grief Definition
grief (grēf)
noun
1. intense emotional suffering caused by loss, disaster, misfortune, etc.; acute sorrow; deep sadness 2. a cause or the subject of such suffering 3. Informal 1. irritation or frustration, esp. from accidents, mishaps, etc. the griefs of a computer operator 2. trouble; difficulty; problem enough grief for one day 3. a cause of any of these
Source: http://www.yourdictionary.com/grief ----------------------------
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:58:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Leviathan9 Edited by: Leviathan9 on 12/09/2008 17:56:20
Quote: grief Definition
grief (grēf)
noun
1. intense emotional suffering caused by loss, disaster, misfortune, etc.; acute sorrow; deep sadness 2. a cause or the subject of such suffering 3. Informal 1. irritation or frustration, esp. from accidents, mishaps, etc. the griefs of a computer operator 2. trouble; difficulty; problem enough grief for one day 3. a cause of any of these
Source: http://www.yourdictionary.com/grief
The real meaning of grief, so using it to describe something else makes it out of context. (I think)
Dictionaries only report the meaning of things to a certain audience, or the general perception of that meaning. Anything 'defined' is fully capable of having that definition changed or made invalid.
It's what we get for having a living language ...
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Flaming Lemming
Caldari Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:20:00 -
[123]
Surely some CCP dev must have an opinion, right?
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Jake Silence
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:59:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Jake Silence on 13/09/2008 01:01:46 Edited by: Jake Silence on 13/09/2008 00:59:37
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Just running around war-decing folks for the fun of it is griefing. You just want to see them explode for fun. If you aren't advancing your character at all because of it, you're griefing.
This is a game. The point of playing games is to have fun, so it seems to me that blowing up things for "the fun of it" is a perfectly valid goal to have. It isn't necessary that all parties playing a game have fun in equal amounts, or have fun at the same time, nor should that be the goal in Eve.
If we are all winners, then none of us are.
Edit: Can't quote for shit
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Trathen
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.13 01:06:00 -
[125]
The easiest way to grief is to announce loudly the many reasons why WoW is better than EVE. That's all I know. _ |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:30:00 -
[126]
CCP, you removed the dev post but forgot to get rid of the blue bar, just FYI --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Planktal
Kenshao Industries The Star League
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Posted - 2008.09.14 03:55:00 -
[127]
Griefing? in EVE? no such thing. what you consider 'griefing' is normal gameplay.
sig-- Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Aeswynne
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Posted - 2008.09.14 05:07:00 -
[128]
Would you class a "Griefer" as someone who with a Corp mate, neither of them in a ship smaller than a BC repeatedly pk's someone; a. They've never met before. b. Is never in anything larger that a Frigate. c. Repeats the act 6 times simply because they can. There would never have been any possible financial gain, there was no war dec between the corps involved, in fact if they'd have checked they would have found that the other corp had recently started and at that time had exactly 1 member.
What are you doing in my pod? GTFO!
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.14 14:06:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Aeswynne Edited by: Aeswynne on 14/09/2008 05:35:02 Would you class a "Griefer" as someone who with a Corp mate, neither of them in a ship smaller than a BC repeatedly pk's someone; a. They've never met before. b. Is never in anything larger that a Frigate. c. Repeats the act 6 times simply because they can. There would never have been any possible financial gain, there was no war dec between the corps involved, in fact if they'd have checked they would have found that the other corp had recently started and at that time had exactly 1 member.
If they are doing it to SAK members, they could simply be roleplaying that they dislike the sycophants who are trained and released by the SAK corporation, and are secretly working for a rival group. Course, this roleplay may also be a short cover to explain that they dislike players who hide in beginner corporations. But if they got the roleplay, it shouldn't be griefing.
Not until they put their hate for you and intent to drive you out of the game into chat channels, at least.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.09.15 13:11:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 15/09/2008 13:16:27
Originally by: Crumplecorn I know very well both the general and EVE-centric definition of griefing.
What you still have yet to accept is that in practice, they don't matter. In practice, in EVE, griefing and normal gameplay cannot be distinguished, so griefing effectively does not exist, except perhaps in the minds of a hypothetical griefer and other players with something like a victim complex.
And that's where you make your mistake. Griefing exists whether you can (*truly*) distinguish it or not. Griefing exists even if CCP declares it doesn't, even if they declare that nothing in Eve is griefing.
You're hung up on griefing in it's relation to CCP rules, and that's the only narrow sector of griefing you think matters. Even IF one would agree that that's the only griefing that matters, it STILL would not mean other types of griefing did not exist.
That's because Eve didn't create and does not have a monopoly on the definition of the word.
What you think matters, and what the OP seems to be asking for, is not the definition or boundaries of griefing, but merely the acts that are frowned upon by CCP, that happen to fall under the heading of "Griefing" in "CCP's rulebook".
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.15 13:53:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Qui Shon And that's where you make your mistake. Griefing exists whether you can (*truly*) distinguish it or not. Griefing exists even if CCP declares it doesn't, even if they declare that nothing in Eve is griefing.
I don't disagree. I'm merely pointing out that in practice, it doesn't matter.
Originally by: Qui Shon You're hung up on griefing in it's relation to CCP rules, and that's the only narrow sector of griefing you think matters.
I don't believe I referenced CCP's rules even once. -
DesuSigs |
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GM Grimmi
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:43:00 -
[132]
Hi everyone,
While IÆm not going into details about the scenarios discussed here I will say that, as games go, EVE is a pretty harsh and unforgiving one. We try to stay out of the playersÆ way as much as we possibly can and a lot of rough play is allowed. However, it is still quite possible to take most things too far and this is when we need to step in. As the lines are usually quite blurred and obscure, we deal with such matters on a case by case basis as they are petitioned. Anyone who feels they have been victim of grief-play or harassment should file a petition on the matter.
Having said that, we do have a general definition of grief-play in our Knowledge Base here: http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336. I also refer you to our Terms Of Service (http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp), in particular but not exclusively, articles 1 through 5, 7 through 9, as well as 16 and 17.
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:47:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Ghoest on 15/09/2008 15:47:20 So according to that war deccing a corp of newbs hanging out in high sec is griefing.
Because it is ruining their game play and is in no way profitable.
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Grimnir
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:59:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Ghoest
So according to that war deccing a corp of modestly low skill players who hang out in out in high sec is griefing.
Because it is ruining their game play and is in no way profitable.
By that definition the decee's are griefing the decers by ruining their PvP and making them lose money
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.15 16:02:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 15/09/2008 15:48:06 Edited by: Ghoest on 15/09/2008 15:47:20 So according to that war deccing a corp of modestly low skill players who hang out in out in high sec is griefing.
Because it is ruining their game play and is in no way profitable.
The profit is low and the risks are low. Problem?
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.09.15 16:06:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Ghoest So according to that war deccing a corp of modestly low skill players who hang out in out in high sec is griefing.
According to the entirety of the post - which includes parts you conveniently ignored when making your point - such a thing might be deemed griefing, as its fits the self-described "general definition" in the EULA.
However, " As the lines are usually quite blurred and obscure, we deal with such matters on a case by case basis as they are petitioned. "
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Kyle Klanen
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Posted - 2008.09.15 16:20:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 15/09/2008 15:48:06 Edited by: Ghoest on 15/09/2008 15:47:20 So according to that war deccing a corp of modestly low skill players who hang out in out in high sec is griefing.
Because it is ruining their game play and is in no way profitable.
It purely depends upon the circumstances, sometimes modestly skilled players (2-5 mill sp) drop better loot because they don't have the skills for T2 so they use a lot of named mods which have a decent value and all loot in general is still profit. It may not always be the most efficient way of making ISK for the time spent but it can still be profitable.
Can baiting a 1 day old player so you can blow up his navitas is something else entirely.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.09.16 11:55:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Qui Shon And that's where you make your mistake. Griefing exists whether you can (*truly*) distinguish it or not. Griefing exists even if CCP declares it doesn't, even if they declare that nothing in Eve is griefing.
I don't disagree. I'm merely pointing out that in practice, it doesn't matter.
Originally by: Qui Shon You're hung up on griefing in it's relation to CCP rules, and that's the only narrow sector of griefing you think matters.
I don't believe I referenced CCP's rules even once.
You didn't spell out the words no, but that is the only type of griefing that matters to you, is it not? The petitionable kind?
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Ceremony Garp
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:13:00 -
[139]
Griefing is subjective.
End.
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Lubomir Penev
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:27:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Ghoest
So according to that war deccing a corp of modestly low skill players who hang out in out in high sec is griefing.
Because it is ruining their game play and is in no way profitable.
If they drop loot and salvage it is profitable. And they have an easy way out by joining a NPC corp. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/ |
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:36:00 -
[141]
Purest greifing i have ever seen was bumping. A couple of guys keeping a freighter bumped for hours while the guy was crying for them to stop in local. They had nothing to gain from it, he had no way of stopping it, it was purely them doing it because they could, and because they thought it was funny. thats greifing in a nut-shell.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:40:00 -
[142]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Hi everyone,
While IÆm not going into details about the scenarios discussed here I will say that, as games go, EVE is a pretty harsh and unforgiving one. We try to stay out of the playersÆ way as much as we possibly can and a lot of rough play is allowed. However, it is still quite possible to take most things too far and this is when we need to step in. As the lines are usually quite blurred and obscure, we deal with such matters on a case by case basis as they are petitioned. Anyone who feels they have been victim of grief-play or harassment should file a petition on the matter.
Having said that, we do have a general definition of grief-play in our Knowledge Base here: http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336. I also refer you to our Terms Of Service (http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp), in particular but not exclusively, articles 1 through 5, 7 through 9, as well as 16 and 17.
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The TOS is pretty obviously a legal device to sever liabilities rather than an actual guideline on what constitutes griefing. Its purposefully written vaguely so as to be discretionary in nature. Some of those terms are actually violated rather frequently ("You may not develop utilities for Eve without express written consent", etc) though naturally no one would care unless it caused problems (ie, damages).
Anyway, appreciate what you're trying to do here but you didn't shed any more light on it to be honest.
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Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.16 13:46:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Warrio on 16/09/2008 13:47:19
Originally by: Doddy the guy was crying for them to stop in local.
lol If that's not profit then I don't know what is.
Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain |
EpicFailTroll
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Posted - 2008.09.16 14:31:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Crumplecorn trolling
debate
Qui Shon, don't bother. This person is a super dense unconscious troll. Hell, even his ridiculous desusig acknowledges the very definition of griefing he refuses. "You fun means their misery / In EvE, making you miserable is as good a reason as any to shoot you". So yes, you can gatecamp lowsec 24/7 and not break gameplay. You can make a profit out of it, but often the very first reason is to get hate and QQ mails. Most gankbears live for that. They just enjoy griefing people. Yes, griefing, as in making them miserable, through standard gameplay. That's not a debatable opinion, as its a hard fact, "priceless tears", "delicious hatemail" etc.
Don't discuss with this guy, he's an absolute relativist, just like all people who open their mouth to be right. Fact-twisting and blatant disregard of common sense is what they use to basically say "i'm right because you're wrong".
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.16 15:45:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Doddy Purest greifing i have ever seen was bumping. A couple of guys keeping a freighter bumped for hours while the guy was crying for them to stop in local. They had nothing to gain from it, he had no way of stopping it, it was purely them doing it because they could, and because they thought it was funny. thats greifing in a nut-shell.
If they'd just said "give us 20M and we'll let you continue" though...
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D'Insane Shatner
Gallente Shatner's Toupee
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Posted - 2008.09.16 16:16:00 -
[146]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Hi everyone,
While IÆm not going into details about the scenarios discussed here I will say that, as games go, EVE is a pretty harsh and unforgiving one. We try to stay out of the playersÆ way as much as we possibly can and a lot of rough play is allowed. However, it is still quite possible to take most things too far and this is when we need to step in. As the lines are usually quite blurred and obscure, we deal with such matters on a case by case basis as they are petitioned. Anyone who feels they have been victim of grief-play or harassment should file a petition on the matter.
Having said that, we do have a general definition of grief-play in our Knowledge Base here: http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336. I also refer you to our Terms Of Service (http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp), in particular but not exclusively, articles 1 through 5, 7 through 9, as well as 16 and 17.
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
TY.
I'm replying because I actually want the response to to be seen, I'll also probably get flamed.
There are only two issues in EVE that seem grievously unfair:
1. The mentioned wardec issues.
2. Low sec missions.
Enough has been said about point one.
However on point two- it's my belief that the difficulty of level 4 missions in low sec should be notched up (just a bit) and INSTANCED. It's a total loss to run low sec missions because the mechanics just make you a defenseless target. There is no defense for a pirate gang warping into an in progress combat mission. If you are warped in on- you are dead the vast majority of the time. You are not outfitted for PVP- hence you are dead.
Those of the pirate profession love this game mechanic. Because it's an "I Win Button". Even in Empire Space there's nothing so profitable as ganking a low sec level 4 mission runner.
So that is my opinion. And the change doesn't effect me since I live in 0.0. I'm under the gun 24/7 with my assets hanging out and I like it. But I don't think it should be that way during missions in low sec (And something should also be done to make mining possible but difficult in low sec). The transition from Empire to outlaw space would be greatly smoothed out if the mechanics made operating in low sec "difficult" and not "impossible".
In short, Empire space is fine, and 0.0 is wonderful. Low sec.... needs to be modified some.
Low sec gate campers and mission gankers represent the kindergarten of EVE PVP. It is the easiest way to make money currently in low sec (I know- I've done it). EVE game mechanics shouldn't reward this.
Flame away. |
Nexa Necis
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:02:00 -
[147]
As someone who has been called a griefer for over two years now, I think CCP has a good grasp on any griefing going on in the game.
I would say I get threatened with grief petitions a few times a month. Those threats come as a result of many things. Sometimes it's from war decs, other times from suiciding someone. I even got them when I would steal mission objectives and can flipping 100k worth of Veldspar.
Never once have I been talked to or warned by a GM. I even petition some of the scenarios I was in at the time to ensure I was not crossing the line into CCP's definition of griefing. Every time they said I was fully within the rules and guidelines.
I think the term griefing gets tossed about way too liberally. One time some guy started busting my chops in local. He said he wanted to get my bounty which was like a whopping 14mil. I said no problem, I will war dec you, he said to bring a big ship to do it.
So I dec'd his corp and one of the funniest things happened. You can read the whole story here!
He started the whole thing by smacking me in local. He continued it via emails. Once dec'd he then started quoting the EULA and ToS to me. He tried to hide in Goonswarm, he tried jumping corps. Every time I would follow. He cried griefing the whole time. It was insane. His actions brought about a war he was unwilling to deal with and yet he tried to put the blame on my corp for griefing him.
He eventually sold his ISK for cash and then sold off his account. Or at least he was trying to sell it on his website. Once he quit Eve he went to WoW and buys/sells WoW stuff for cash.
So to most people griefing is tantamount to anything that they don't like or anything that ruins their day in game. Regardless of if it's their fault. Everyone else is to blame.
I can only imagine how many petitions CCP gets daily from people who feel they've been griefed. Killed in a low sec gate camp? Petition! Tell someone that you f*cked their mom and they dec'd your corp and are killing you? Petition! Someone stole a small hull repairer from that Sansha rat wreck next to your mining Osprey? Petition!
I even watched someone advise another person to petition because that person undocked in a unfitted Megathron with war targets in system, who then got caught on a gate and ejected and lost his new ship.
Many people don't understand how harsh a game Eve can be. Some are scared away by it but just as many embrace it.
Personally I think griefing would entail things such as can baiting newbies in starter systems. Bumping miners or Barge Bowling as some call it. Tossing out real life threats to people in game. Picking on a particular person for no reason and giving them no opportunity to come to a resolution ie. a surrender fee or something reasonable.
I am sure there are a few more scenarios out there but I can't think of them.
As I said, I think people abuse the word griefing. Under those people's definition of griefing, I still think it's a non-issue. CCP gives everyone options and ways not to be griefed to begin with and once the "griefing" starts for them, CCP has a ton of options to get out of the situation.
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:16:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Anyway, appreciate what you're trying to do here but you didn't shed any more light on it to be honest.
you're playing the wrong game. _____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.16 19:40:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 16/09/2008 19:46:38
Originally by: EpicFailTroll Qui Shon, don't bother. This person is a super dense unconscious troll.
Why thank you. Though while I'd like to be able to say I can flame nubs on forums even in my sleep, in fact I cannot. Originally by: EpicFailTroll Hell, even his ridiculous desusig acknowledges the very definition of griefing he refuses.
Wow, I actually agreed with that definition in the very last post I made in this thread. Living up to your name again. Originally by: EpicFailTroll absolute relativist
I LOL'd.
Anyway...
Originally by: Qui Shon You didn't spell out the words no, but that is the only type of griefing that matters to you, is it not? The petitionable kind?
Only if you are talking about what is allowed under the rules. Which I never do anyway, since there isn't much to say on that other than to state the rules. -
DesuSigs |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.17 04:13:00 -
[150]
Originally by: D'Insane Shatner
Originally by: GM Grimmi Hi everyone,
While IÆm not going into details about the scenarios discussed here I will say that, as games go, EVE is a pretty harsh and unforgiving one. We try to stay out of the playersÆ way as much as we possibly can and a lot of rough play is allowed. However, it is still quite possible to take most things too far and this is when we need to step in. As the lines are usually quite blurred and obscure, we deal with such matters on a case by case basis as they are petitioned. Anyone who feels they have been victim of grief-play or harassment should file a petition on the matter.
Having said that, we do have a general definition of grief-play in our Knowledge Base here: http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336. I also refer you to our Terms Of Service (http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp), in particular but not exclusively, articles 1 through 5, 7 through 9, as well as 16 and 17.
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
TY.
I'm replying because I actually want the response to to be seen, I'll also probably get flamed.
There are only two issues in EVE that seem grievously unfair:
1. The mentioned wardec issues.
2. Low sec missions.
Enough has been said about point one.
However on point two- it's my belief that the difficulty of level 4 missions in low sec should be notched up (just a bit) and INSTANCED. It's a total loss to run low sec missions because the mechanics just make you a defenseless target. There is no defense for a pirate gang warping into an in progress combat mission. If you are warped in on- you are dead the vast majority of the time. You are not outfitted for PVP- hence you are dead.
Those of the pirate profession love this game mechanic. Because it's an "I Win Button". Even in Empire Space there's nothing so profitable as ganking a low sec level 4 mission runner.
So that is my opinion. And the change doesn't effect me since I live in 0.0. I'm under the gun 24/7 with my assets hanging out and I like it. But I don't think it should be that way during missions in low sec (And something should also be done to make mining possible but difficult in low sec). The transition from Empire to outlaw space would be greatly smoothed out if the mechanics made operating in low sec "difficult" and not "impossible".
In short, Empire space is fine, and 0.0 is wonderful. Low sec.... needs to be modified some.
Low sec gate campers and mission gankers represent the kindergarten of EVE PVP. It is the easiest way to make money currently in low sec (I know- I've done it). EVE game mechanics shouldn't reward this.
Flame away.
I just think it is funny that you bring lowsec missions up in a thread on greifing, and mention killing lowsec mission runners is one of the most profitable things in eve.
also ever thought of running level 4s in a friendly lowsec system? or in a gang
oh wait you mean I can play with other people and lower risk in a mmo? owait lower isk/hour I DONT WANNA
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