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Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
90
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Posted - 2012.04.02 14:43:00 -
[151] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
That one we know is being fixed. This is according to Soundwave who commented on it with a tone that was not very complimentary to moon farmers. He called them personal atms. Log in, ching ching ching. He said changes are coming to moon minerals, and their plan when they change mining mechanics is that the new mining will allow players to be able to find moon minerals as well. Hopefully roaming miner gangs have a reason then to go on mining scan ops for the elusive tech. |
Gideon Tyler
EVE University Ivy League
27
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Posted - 2012.04.02 16:18:00 -
[152] - Quote
I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.
I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.
*bump |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
90
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Posted - 2012.04.02 16:52:00 -
[153] - Quote
Gideon Tyler wrote:I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.
I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.
*bump
Bump from me as well. I am putting together some income trees (provided I don't bungle it up or get lazy) to break down mechanics of earnings. Will comment and compare issues where farming and botting are issues and need changes. Will also highlight parts that reducing income will have negative affects on solo players. I have always played single character while living through low and into null. Since I have never used an alt, I have a unique perspective compared to many other older players in places that earning is too high, too low or too easy. As such, able to be AFK earned. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
332
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Posted - 2012.04.02 16:52:00 -
[154] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Pick one: * Why should anyone live anywhere risky if there's no reward for taking said risks Because there are different styles of gameplay. And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
Misanth wrote:* Why should people contribute to the isk in-currency if they don't contribute in spending it Prove *they* don't spend it... You can't.
Misanth wrote:* Think about all us bittervets who had no missions or incursions, and started with ~50k sp/could barely even kill rats in highsec, we need to hate on people getting free isk, obviously, as back then we were all forced to go to low- or null to make *any* kind of income Games changed over time... In 2003/4 there was dam near nothing but mining and pvp. And 16000 accounts...
Misanth wrote:* I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you? I'm Harry Truman.
You read it here on the internets, so it has to be true...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.04.02 16:55:00 -
[155] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
ask the hisec incursion runners about that |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:08:00 -
[156] - Quote
Conclusion: Nerf Incursions. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
91
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
Raven Ether wrote:Conclusion: Nerf Incursions.
Correction, fix incursions. This is the most promising and busted game mechanic of everything. The bounties would be fine if the mechanics matched it so like I often reiterate, don't nerf fix the following:
1. Randomize spawns: This gets rid of the I win fits and formats. Also cause risk of shinies being popped. Just like when incursions came out
2. Have site respawn timer adjust with system control. If system gets to 100% empire reclaimed, the respawn rate should be too slow to make easy sites worth it. This promotes the more challenging larger fleet sites.
3. Make getting full control require hitting the big sites. Need to get 65% from vanguards, 20% from assaults, and 15% from HQ to get mom to appear. |
Zircon Dasher
109
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:21:00 -
[158] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it... ask the hisec incursion runners about that
Ask the null sec incursion runners about that. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
122
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:21:00 -
[159] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it... ask the hisec incursion runners about that
Ha ask the null sec Incursion runners who farm deep in SOV how much more ISKies they make when an incursion pops up there. NULL still makes better ISKies per hour its just more sporadic which is the nature of NULL (& W-space too for that matter) And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:23:00 -
[160] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Raven Ether wrote:Conclusion: Nerf Incursions. Correction, fix incursions. .
Correction fix the higher level missions to incorperate Incursion/sleeper AI's which make them so much more difficult to bot Want to bet bounty botting creates more inflation then any other activity? And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
332
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:24:00 -
[161] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
You ma'am are an idiot.
I don't know any nice way to say it.
But there it is.
0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game.
Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:25:00 -
[162] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion??
1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu.
1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec? |
EmmaFromMarketing
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:27:00 -
[163] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:so your have a bit of paper to say your an economics major well congratz on going to uni for 4 years or so.
so lets look at your response i asked one question and you couldn't give me an answer but you asked me afew questions then throw your bit of paper about to say "that i know it all" almost like if your trying to scare me into submission and that your a bitter old vet which has not answered my question.at least the OP can write a their view point with a clear and to the point answer.
now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless
The reason I read the forums is because of posts like this by illiterates. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:29:00 -
[164] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! You ma'am are an idiot. I don't know any nice way to say it. But there it is. 0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game. Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****.
Well according to CCP Soundwave at the lastFanfest MoonGoo farming is just like a gigantic ATM machine which Alliance leaders can just walk up to slip thier card in & cha CHING riches just flow out. FACE IT THEY ARE A MATERIALS FAUCET THAT SPEWS OUT GREATER WEALTH THEN BOTH INCURSIONS & SLEEPERS SITES COMBINED 0.0 Moon mining spews out greater wealth into the hands of a few then any other mechanic in Eve And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:32:00 -
[165] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion?? 1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu. 1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec?
Been told that super CAPs can run anoms making 300M+ isk/hour... dunno if that was beofre the nerf or is still going on now TBH And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
150
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:33:00 -
[166] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! You ma'am are an idiot. I don't know any nice way to say it. But there it is. 0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game. Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****. Well according to CCP Soundwave at the lastFanfest MoonGoo farming is just like a gigantic ATM machine which Alliance leaders can just walk up to slip thier card in & cha CHING riches just flow out. FACE IT THEY ARE A MATERIALS FAUCET THAT SPEWS OUT GREATER WEALTH THEN BOTH INCURSIONS & SLEEPERS SITES COMBINED 0.0 Moon mining spews out greater wealth into the hands of a few then any other mechanic in Eve
Does it matter? It's already been said that they are working on fixing it all. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:34:00 -
[167] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion?? 1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu. 1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec? Been told that super CAPs can run anoms making 300M+ isk/hour... dunno if that was beofre the nerf or is still going on now TBH any proof to back this up??? |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
92
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:40:00 -
[168] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
Correction fix the higher level missions to incorperate Incursion/sleeper AI's which make them so much more difficult to bot Want to bet bounty botting creates more inflation then any other activity?
That too! Combined with the hurt to promoting low/nullsec industry with the module reprocessing from loot added to the mix. For missions, they need a couple types.
First, they need the solo mission still. Some people like to solo, cannot just take that away. Instead of all the high bounty isk for missions, need fewer npcs, but more challenging. Solo missions should be engaging and challenging. Promote different fits. Myself, just to make it challenging, I always used speed, high involvement fights and high power. Risky to fly because it can mean death in a mission. Lost a nightmare to prove it :p. Makes mission running so fun though. Speed ravens and pulse rep maelstroms/rokhs were my favorites. Players can fight through tougher cruisers and frigates using the new ai with maybe only a couple challenging battleships in it.
Time reward should be a continual decrease and the majority of earning. The balancing out should result in a solo player able to earn about 20mil/hr highsec of at keyboard involvement. Using alts would earn a bit more isk, but not a whole lot in the mission unless you run the small fleet missions. At mission select, allow agent to offer different fleet sizes up to a certain point or a selection of missions.
More challenging missions that require actual fleet attention. With spawn switching, won't be able to just call agro with a domi, throw on remote rep and go afk to set up another mission. Overall, applying this format to all forms of pve sites will be advantageous. It will allow exploration sites to stay challenging to access in low and null, but promote more of the recon and covert ships like what I use. That is the biggest challenge for the exploration sites. To make them riskier, they just put in more high bounty npcs, making them a grind. They would be better suited to high speed sort of challenge combat with guards and the like. there are complexes to get tough combat loot. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
92
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote: any proof to back this up???
edit: did you here this from your incursion friends who never leave hisec??
Don't know about supercapitals, but if I flew a nyx that would be 2.5x the damage I could make in an anomaly with my regular carrier. I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills. 300m from a supercarrier? Running a bot, I can see it being possible. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
485
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:52:00 -
[170] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:[quote=DarthNefarius]
Time reward should be a continual decrease and the majority of earning. The balancing out should result in a solo player able to earn about 20mil/hr highsec of at keyboard involvement. Using alts would earn a bit more isk, but not a whole lot in the mission unless you run the small fleet missions. At mission select, allow agent to offer different fleet sizes up to a certain point or a selection of missions.
You think like people don't adapt. Make missions net 20M/h and they'll just switch to Jita trading or something. But that'd be a fair equalizer as you'd finally see as empty space in hi sec as you see in 0.0.
Also, you can't just take away.
This is not RL, where suckers HAVE to pay taxes, HAVE to spend a miserable life, HAVE to perform duties, HAVE to work, HAVE to be a meaningless cog in an huge, soul-crushing mechanism in the hands of few.
This is a subscriptions based game, you won't move people to somewhere else if they hate it (aka forcing everybody to become a 0.0 puppet), past a certain thresold they will just find something else more rewarding to do than hitting red crosses or staring at a rough features space Excel. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:54:00 -
[171] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:any proof to back this up???
here's the quote from adifferent thread:
Jenn aSide wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:First thing to do is be patient.
The drone region changes, the new crimewatch, the new wardec system all will contribute to the price inflation picture. The more mineral prices go up, the more people are inclined to do something other than shoot rats. Less people shooting rats means less ISK entering the system. We need to see where it shakes out instead of going into panic mode and hitting every button on the dash board in the hopes that turning on the radio will apply the brakes.
I do agree that reducing bounties is part of the solution, tighten the faucets globally, versus making the sinks larger or more of them randomly across the game just to say there are more sinks. Sinks are a "cost" to someone, people tend to avoid costs. Creating new sinks for mission runners/incursions/WH Blue-Loot would likely take the form of some new module or "stuff". This just trades one form of inflation for another, and in the end will contribute to the deflation side of the picture. So, reduction of bounties across the board will work better. Net income of ISK generation via rat destruction will decrease relative to other activities.
We also have to see more what is ahead in Dust, Dust may turn into a giant ISK vacuum for all we know. Well said. I Think CCP should go slow, and for another reason as well. The Titan nerf. After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf. Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 18:45:00 -
[172] - Quote
When I read threads like this, it makes me wonder how subdivided the working environment at CCP must be like. For numerous examples for this statement, there is Team Avatar working together on Walking In Stations tinkering along with various ideas while casually talking in threads. But then there was the incident with CCP Greyscale single-handedly deciding to go into the database to delete various items without any overview beforehand. Team Security seems to work together with their latest work noted and a few members of that team making a comment here and there. But then this thread states that an interview posted elsewhere has CCP Soundwave single-handedly going to change bounties, data cores, and whatever else to drive everyone to destroy each other it seems. So how do some people at CCP get carte blanche to do whatever they want without question?
Just something to ponder casually. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 19:08:00 -
[173] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You think like people don't adapt. Make missions net 20M/h and they'll just switch to Jita trading or something. But that'd be a fair equalizer as you'd finally see as empty space in hi sec as you see in 0.0.
Also, you can't just take away.
This is not RL, where suckers HAVE to pay taxes, HAVE to spend a miserable life, HAVE to perform duties, HAVE to work, HAVE to be a meaningless cog in an huge, soul-crushing mechanism in the hands of few.
This is a subscriptions based game, you won't move people to somewhere else if they hate it (aka forcing everybody to become a 0.0 puppet), past a certain thresold they will just find something else more rewarding to do than hitting red crosses or staring at a rough features space Excel.
20M/h I don't think is that bad. Also that is for average player. If they put up bigger money ships, such as faction fit khronos with excellent T2 gunnery skills. But the mission challenge does mean that there is a risk if you lose it. In terms of money, the ones who like running missions will still have fun doing it. Still is salvage and chance for the decent meta modules. 20m will cover any T1 bs easily.
I think like people that don't adapt when I am calling for a new and complex combat system that forces people to actively play and adapt? My favorite thing in eve is to try and figure out and do things outside the norm. It is when you don't have to adapt that I get bored.
Edit, misinterperated what you said. Sorry. Yeah people will adapt, that is the point. Ideally to different mechanics that are more fun to be a part of. To say it isnt like work is a falsity. Unless you are running multiple afk accounts, to make any serious isk is either farming (dull and work) or enjoyable and low earning. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 19:42:00 -
[174] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:any proof to back this up???
here's the quote from adifferent thread: Jenn aSide wrote:Well said.
I Think CCP should go slow, and for another reason as well. The Titan nerf.
After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf.
Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
so a few titans can make 300m/hr make null for profitable than incursion???
Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem?? |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:01:00 -
[175] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make. see the problem??
Oh, I know the problem! During a war where you are on standby for cta's etc, the only way to make isk is to farm. Again, I don't run alts but run support more. Isk is a tough grind for me, but better than highsec for other forms except incursions.
When it comes to them, I tend to be the most outspoken about fix them. I say fix the mechanics though. Nom some 10bil isk fleets who think that combat is all about not shooting a specific ship cause it will cause spawn and the bits about having fits because you know exactly how a site's combat will go. More risk for incursions!
People will always want pve. Live events showed how much people enjoy fleet pve. There is no reason why highsec cannot have a good isk source. I am not against that, but if there is a good isk source, it needs to be high risk. If you want fast isk during an incursion, you better risk and often lose ships if you mess up. Steady and safe fleets make low isk. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:09:00 -
[176] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make. see the problem?? I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Farang Lo wrote:
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem??
I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms.
Remember, that is 10,11, 12 people making 80 million isk each. People working together in anomalies still will only make 50mil each tops if running battleships in anomalies. |
Zircon Dasher
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
Just to add some numbers to the discussion:
Incursion Payout divided by participants by security type (single day data for Feb. 1)
Highsec: 171,948,377 Lowsec: 141,711,651 Null: 162,743,409
For the sake of argument let us assume that everyone ran VG's only and distribution of rewards were homogenous:
Each Highsec participant ran 16.38 sites. Each Lowsec participant ran 9.45 sites. Each Nullsec participant ran 10.85 sites.
If each site took 5min to run:
Highsec incursion runners made 126m/hr Low and Null incursion runners both made 180m/hr |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:32:00 -
[179] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Farang Lo wrote:
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem??
I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms. Remember, that is 10,11, 12 people making 80 million isk each. People working together in anomalies still will only make 50mil each tops if running battleships in anomalies. That is more of an issue of scaling that works in incursions but doesn't really play out elsewhere. Admittedly this is somewhat problematic.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
312
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 21:58:00 -
[180] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward..
Where do you get the idea that low sec has less risk than null sec or wormholes?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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