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Haikato Saraki
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.27 05:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just do it. Dont wait for it to become a problem, just do it now, or soon, or whenever, just don't save the option as some kind of "save the universe" button because by the time its that big of a problem it will be too late.
10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. You talked at fanfest about shifting more and more NPC services into the hands of players. I believe something along the lines of "your all grown up now, you can run jita" was said. Well that's great, Im excited for that! But the more NPC's you put out of a job the more isk-sinks you plug up.
So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it. |
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
agreed, its already a little late in coming. and none of us are conjuring up images of you burning in hell for now, so it's the perfect time to do something "bad" |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
287
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's like ripping off a plaster, if it needs to be done, might as well get it over with. WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
476
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
equcin meey
camdy and Co. inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero.
why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ?? support the Lego Rifter-á
http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/11619 |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
476
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Posted - 2012.03.27 06:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero. why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ??
Pick one: * Why should anyone live anywhere risky if there's no reward for taking said risks * Why should people contribute to the isk in-currency if they don't contribute in spending it * Think about all us bittervets who had no missions or incursions, and started with ~50k sp/could barely even kill rats in highsec, we need to hate on people getting free isk, obviously, as back then we were all forced to go to low- or null to make *any* kind of income * I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you? shiptoastin' liek a baws |
equcin meey
camdy and Co. inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 06:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
so your have a bit of paper to say your an economics major well congratz on going to uni for 4 years or so.
so lets look at your response i asked one question and you couldn't give me an answer but you asked me afew questions then throw your bit of paper about to say "that i know it all" almost like if your trying to scare me into submission and that your a bitter old vet which has not answered my question.at least the OP can write a their view point with a clear and to the point answer.
now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless support the Lego Rifter-á
http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/11619 |
Chokichi Ozuwara
Lucky Dragon Convenience
30
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 06:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Misanth wrote:* I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you? Probably *not* a good idea to brag about that.
Start a corp and do it yourself. You'll fail, but you'll enjoy failing. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
55
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 06:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:so your have a bit of paper to say your an economics major well congratz on going to uni for 4 years or so.
so lets look at your response i asked one question and you couldn't give me an answer but you asked me afew questions then throw your bit of paper about to say "that i know it all" almost like if your trying to scare me into submission and that your a bitter old vet which has not answered my question.at least the OP can write a their view point with a clear and to the point answer.
now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
Fixing this would involve either reducing high-sec income, or boost null/low income. We don't want to contribute to massive inflation so the logical choice is to nerf high-sec income
Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death. |
Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
321
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 06:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Even though I generally operate out of highsec and doing so would hurt my income... I am on board with this. Encourage people to go out into new areas of space and meet new people (and mabye even get blown up by them). Encourages people to work together more than mission running does. Basically it helps push people into the funner parts of the game. Since Solo mission runners rarely stay subbed forever... and they dont go to fanfest. |
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equcin meey
camdy and Co. inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 07:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
Fixing this would involve either reducing high-sec income, or boost null/low income. We don't want to contribute to massive inflation so the logical choice is to nerf high-sec income
Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death.
see Misanth this is how you do a construction reply with an answer instead of a bitter old vet that seem to hate all that the current game has now but is still happy to play hmm oh and waving a bit of paper to say your did something.
i don't believe i should earn more isk than low sec,WH space an 0.0 but i also don't believe i should earn near zero and neither is high sec near zero risk. support the Lego Rifter-á
http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/11619 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
441
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 07:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
They shown that Jita is the system in game where the most ships get popped. Does it mean people should get substantial rewards in there? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 07:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not sure a reduction in bounties would really do much to handle inflation (seriously we had a 1300% increase in the money supply and 24% price deflation). On the other hand, when it doesn't work it'll eventually make a nice economics paper.
Go ahead and do it, just don't do it again (and again, and again) if it doesn't work the first time. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 07:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bounty changes is only a short term fix, and honestly would be more detrimental to the real players and not the botters/alt farmers.
Mechanics are what need to change. The removal of scripted bost spawns, would be huge. Increasing to the new AI would be huge. High value pve more that requires fleets would be huge. Get it so people want/need teams for sanctums maybe? Remove the scripted missions and incursions that allow for the specialized farming fleets and fits maybe? Personally, an isk hit would be really hard on me, I am not a rich person in eve by any extent. When I need isk for war, a hit would hurt, a challenge change would not.
Suggestion, rewards be a bandaid as you bring in better active play content. I fully understand turning off the Isk faucet, more engaging play will bring more players. But just be sure to replace it with more meaningful content. Mission running format is way to old. Incursion combat is awesome, but the scripting is only reason it is an isk faucet. |
Kira Vanachura
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 08:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Prices are still lower than before. We don't need that emergency button pushed - yet. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 08:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
equcin meey wrote: now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless
Your income shouldnt be near zero it should just be proper to sustain risk vs reward balance, a design upon this game was builded
In hi sec risk is lower than in other space thus income should be lower.
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JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 08:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
They shown that Jita is the system in game where the most ships get popped. Does it mean people should get substantial rewards in there?
Jita has the best rewards in game it is main trading hub ......
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Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
407
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 08:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward.
ALL rewards, not just rat bounties, so LP, incursions, bounties, everything.
The only thing that shouldnt be really brought down is mining, whihc in hisec is already a prett badly paid job. Except Ice, someting needs changing with ice simply due to the amount of ice bots in hisec. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
Ya those are actually pretty good numbers. And I mission in high sec to fund my pvp. 10% reduction is really nothing. When they added in 11% NPC corp tax a lot of people made 1 man corps but a ton still stayed so if you want to make a change it's gotta be a bigger number.
The problem is that level 4 rewards have been so high for so long that a lot of people solely run missions all day for isk. The worry is that a lot of these people will quit. I don't think CCP has the balls for a short term dip in subs in order to improve the game. |
Nex Onerios
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! |
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
They shown that Jita is the system in game where the most ships get popped. Does it mean people should get substantial rewards in there? Maybe, if the number that were popped was a substantial percentage of the traffic through the system.
Risk isn't about ship death alone, a more accurate representation would be ship death per capita |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
Tech moons are getting nerfed, stop beating the dead horse. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons.
Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds.
At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be.
A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Nex Onerios wrote:You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons. Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds. At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be. A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter.
Very true. I don't know about other alliances, but corps and alliances I have been in have very strict and in place ship replacement and alliance protocols. The specialty and high cost primaries have to be kept in steady supply and arent cheap. If alliance isnt able to replace or somehow keep peeps in the fight, wont be a fight for much longer. |
Haikato Saraki
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 09:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote: now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless
The sky isnt falling. Your highsec income wont be near zero it will be 10% less than it is now. If -10% of your current income = nearly 0 then your doing something wrong or need to go back to school and learn some basic math.
Quote:Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
We can talk about re-balanceing latter. This is about the isk that is made every time someone shoots a rat. (For the record, most of the isk comes from nulsec. Just saying.) source - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115
Quote:If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.
Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.
Look, ideally CCP could update the AI and update the spawn systems and update all the pve content in EVE as a whole... but lets face reality here. That is a monolithic task. This situation, while not a sucking chest wound as "he-who-shall-not-be-named" (I actually just cant spell his name) might have put it, but it is fast becoming a problem and something needs to be done about it. A global 10% reduction is the most immediately obvious place to begin, after that we can address the rest of the problems that have led up to this moment. Risk/Reward, Highsec/Lowsec/Nulsec, incursions and sanctums, all these are issues that should be addressed AFTER an income adjustment. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
110
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:I'm not sure a reduction in bounties would really do much to handle inflation (seriously we had a 1300% increase in the money supply and 24% price deflation). On the other hand, when it doesn't work it'll eventually make a nice economics paper.
Go ahead and do it, just don't do it again (and again, and again) if it doesn't work the first time.
We didn't have anywhere near a 1300% increase in the money supply after you factor out the perma ban accounts, the unubs, etc Still I have not hear annoucement 1 of what form the new or increased ISK sinks will take the form of. I'd like to see a new 10% concord implants costing 2.5 billion ISKies and 500k lp as an example of a new ISKy sinks any other ideas? Like what would the NULL SEC & wormhole ISK sinks be wormhole stabilizer BPC's being offered by the pirate faction stores such as Sansha? And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
they need to encourage risk more, create new low sec options. Hi sec is decent. Isk doesn't come from nowhere. Every isk in eve was from a mission or a bounty or some npc action. On the other hand if i titan is destroyed every isk ever earned that was spent on that titan is now completely gone. |
Capacity gear
Stella Contego Security Stella Stargate Security
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Haikato Saraki wrote:
Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.
Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.
erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts?
sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance
you sir are a buffoon!
edit: thinking about it you are right in one way, however say EVE re-set tomorrow,. all isk,. all assets, and all rats were removed,.. where does isk come from? selling stuf? where does the isk come from to buy items? |
adam smash
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
all you null bears and your risk vs reward...
Please... you rat in ******* titans how much risk do you REALLY have?
You can run your plexs, making billions all you need to do is watch local for anyone NOT a blue. You can rat... with HUGE rewards, + officer, faction spawns... in HS... we get what... 10k isk rats in high?
incrusions again... in low/null you run when you see a nuet... in HS you never know when someone will come in and jam you out... and you also make more isk...
I mean lul wtf...
Mining is the best... with all the ganking in high... your 20 times safter in null/low as... o ****... again the SECOND you see a red/nuet in local you know your in danger... however again in high... you always have the nuets in local with you... you never know if one is gona be a ganker or not.
If ccp wants to keep killing eve... sure make it even harder to make money... thus buy ships, mods, etc... make the game more like a job and more people then quit.
If ccp wants to make HS make less isk... well then make it safer, lower concord times, etc...
And yep this is from a HS ganker...
To say highsec is safer than your null homes?
If anything lowsec needs a HUGE isk buff...
Can't build supers, can be attacked by them... very hard to point.. and destory...
Risk of being in low seems WAY higher than the reward...
NERF FIGHTER BOMBERS IN LOW. |
Avila Cracko
275
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
I don't think that 10% is enough. Reduce it 15% so that you are sure it helps but through all the board. Once 15% is better then two times 10%, and first time people will bite their tongue and will not yell much but second time - riots, here we are. And increase taxes on all things, especially for changing the price of market orders!!! truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Capacity gear wrote:Haikato Saraki wrote:[
Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.
Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.
erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts? sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance you sir are a buffoon! No, that statement is entirely accurate. For all the tech moons currently being exploited not a single isk is being injected into the game. I actuality some is being removed through market taxes and fees as they are traded for isk that was already injected from some other source. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1227
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
/facepalm - not sure if trolling or truly that dumb.
No tech moon has ever spilled one single isk into eves economic system.
Their effect as an isk faucet is exactly zero. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
110
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Capacity gear wrote:Haikato Saraki wrote:[
Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.
Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.
erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts? sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance you sir are a buffoon! Tech moons are a type of mineral faucet not a isk faucet... They still are a very important part of the economy and are a factor in inflation just like oil is an important factor in RL economies because it's used in almost everything in manufacturing
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Capacity gear
Stella Contego Security Stella Stargate Security
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Capacity gear wrote:Haikato Saraki wrote:[
Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.
Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.
erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts? sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance you sir are a buffoon! No, that statement is entirely accurate. For all the tech moons currently being exploited not a single isk is being injected into the game. I actuality some is being removed through market taxes and fees as they are traded for isk that was already injected from some other source.
yeah, your right, my mistake, i did make slight edit to post,. years of tech ranting installed tech = isk in my head,. but you are right, it doesn't, i apollogise |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3591
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Burn Jita and Drone Region nerf all in the same week.
Ill be having popcorn and various odd end ships for sale.
|
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
467
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.
Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 20:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.
Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing. Since the nerfing of bounties directly affects the creation of isk, doesn't that count as an effect on money supply? |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
110
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 20:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Serene Repose wrote:You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.
Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing. Since the nerfing of bounties directly affects the creation of isk, doesn't that count as an effect on money supply?
One number I've love to see is the ISK bounties in NULL versus HI versus WH versus LO to really see who is making the best per capita And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
507
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
Fixing this would involve either reducing high-sec income, or boost null/low income. We don't want to contribute to massive inflation so the logical choice is to nerf high-sec income
Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death.
see Misanth this is how you do a construction reply with an answer instead of a bitter old vet that seem to hate all that the current game has now but is still happy to play hmm oh and waving a bit of paper to say your did something. i don't believe i should earn more isk than low sec,WH space an 0.0 but i also don't believe i should earn near zero and neither is high sec near zero risk.
You and Chokichi Ozuwara seems very angry, and lacking a sense of humour, I even put in that extreme 'bittervet' and 'economic major' there to make it painfully obvious, yet you both just took the pain and ignored the obvious.. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:On the other hand if i titan is destroyed every isk ever earned that was spent on that titan is now completely gone.
Nope, the ISK is in the hands of the different players along the chain that ultimately led to the titan being built.
It actually injects ISK in the form of an (albeit hilariously low) insurance payout. "Nullsec alliances will now begin counting reporters on staff along with supercapitals and tech moons. Unironically." - The Mittani |
|
JohnMonty
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
31
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
Show me a moon that adds ISK to the game plz
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
JohnMonty wrote:Nex Onerios wrote:
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
Show me a moon that adds ISK to the game plz
Tech needs a nerf but this isn't the reason why. "Nullsec alliances will now begin counting reporters on staff along with supercapitals and tech moons. Unironically." - The Mittani |
JohnMonty
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
31
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:JohnMonty wrote:Nex Onerios wrote:
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
Show me a moon that adds ISK to the game plz Tech needs a nerf but this isn't the reason why.
I agree it needs a nerf. Just making sure he understands that tech adds no new ISK to the game.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1129
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Reduce XL guns tracking, sig resolution. Remove supercap EWAR immunity. Reduce number of high slots for titans. Pretty soon the bounty generators in null sec will slow down.
Get planetary infrastructure out so we can start paying ISK for planet side defences. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
Increasing the costs of station services would be a great way to solve the ISK problem
Like he cost of factory and research slots should be multiplied by ten at least. RIght now they are ridiculously cheap, especially when compared to the time when you reserved slots instead of stacking jobs like now.
Option: whenever all slots are occupied, the cost per hour of a research/factory slot increases with 1% each day. Whenever more then 50% of all slots are vacant the cost per hour decreases with 1% each day.
Also an additional ISK fee on reprocessing ore and items. A fee for using your jumpclone, perhaps a fee for storage (great way to tax the richer players, because they generally have more stuff).
A problem is that players have great ways to make money, but very little operational and maintenance costs as an individual (corps do have some though). High-sec empire should be expensive for the average pilot. That will also allow financial benefits for being a pilot in null-sec, low-sec or even FW. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force Initiative Mercenaries
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
The graphs that ccp produce say that bounties produced in 00 provide more or an isk Faucet into the game than Incursions do. This maybe correct but has ccp factored in how many people rat in 00 and how many people run incursions?
Ie if 50 people rat in 00 and make 100mil in a set amount of time
and
25 people run incursions and make 100 mill in a set amount of time,
the isk Faucet in incursions is much higher. In the fanfest info I didn't see any numbers which address'd this issue. Now I could be wrong and ccp have addressed this but I haven't seen it. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
100
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
+1 Just do it. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
|
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
513
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Stoogie wrote:The graphs that ccp produce say that bounties produced in 00 provide more or an isk Faucet into the game than Incursions do. This maybe correct but has ccp factored in how many people rat in 00 and how many people run incursions?
Ie if 50 people rat in 00 and make 100mil in a set amount of time
and
25 people run incursions and make 100 mill in a set amount of time,
the isk Faucet in incursions is much higher. In the fanfest info I didn't see any numbers which address'd this issue. Now I could be wrong and ccp have addressed this but I haven't seen it.
We asked them for those figures about 984590385934 times now, no replies yet as far as I'm aware. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
i am a mission runner and i think bounties are too damn high. with 10-15mil bounty ticks (plus the other rewards) there is little to no incentive to do anything else than lvl4s if your goal is making easy money. not sure about the other carebears, but personally, i wouldn't even mind if incursions and lvl4 combat missions were completely banned from hisec. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Purification of Eden XIN DOA'ED
58
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Truth of the matter is that the slides and presentation showing isk generation statistics in eve were generally useless. You showed raw isk generation and showed nothing on the generation per capita. How many people running incursions are there compared to how many are collecting bounties through almost every other aspect of eve. I can sure you that running incursions is so much more lucrative than ratting or missions... I've also come to this conclusion not by looking at some misrepresented numbers but instead from personal player experience involving all these activities that generate iskies.
|
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Increasing the costs of station services would be a great way to solve the ISK problem
Like he cost of factory and research slots should be multiplied by ten at least. RIght now they are ridiculously cheap, especially when compared to the time when you reserved slots instead of stacking jobs like now.
Option: whenever all slots are occupied, the cost per hour of a research/factory slot increases with 1% each day. Whenever more then 50% of all slots are vacant the cost per hour decreases with 1% each day.
Also an additional ISK fee on reprocessing ore and items. A fee for using your jumpclone, perhaps a fee for storage (great way to tax the richer players, because they generally have more stuff).
A problem is that players have great ways to make money, but very little operational and maintenance costs as an individual (corps do have some though). High-sec empire should be expensive for the average pilot. That will also allow financial benefits for being a pilot in null-sec, low-sec or even FW.
bad solution is bad. the players who generate isk from thin air by shooting red crosses are usually not the players who refine ore and start industry jobs. an amarr lvl4 runner is 100% self-sufficient once he has his ship and any T2 modules he might need. this means that he can run missions for any amount of time and generate any amount of money without ever relying on any refinement or production job. your solution would just strain the indys and make pvp more expensive. |
Ildryn
X Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
Sansha's incursion has ran its course. Time for him to withdrawal. |
Stabs McShiv
MINUS4
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Remove incursion isk payout buff lp payout Remove facwar isk payout buff lp payout Remove Lvl 5 isk payout buff lp payout Remove Lvl 4 isk payout buff lp payout Remove Lvl 3 isk payout buff lp payout Remove Lvl 2 isk payout buff lp payout Remove Lvl 1 isk payout buff lp payout Remove all meta 1-4 rat drops drop bpcs instead remove isk requirements in lp stores replace with meta item and p.i requirements reduce all bounty's for none commander rats. Buff commander spawn ai + isk payout Increase cosmic anom's/sigs across all areas of space. |
Xearal
SOL Industries Black Thorne Alliance
275
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
The main ISK generator in Eve according to those graphs is bounties from rats, however, people seem to forget that a lot of those battleships that get blown up for 1M a piece are in fact in level 4 missions. Level 4 mission payouts is a small portion of the isk faucet, but that's just the payout of the missions themselves
Reducing the bounties is a good start, though imho, rat bounties should also be adjusted for security status, meaning killing a battleship rat in high sec would give less money than killing same rat in low or null. This would mean that ratting in null would be more profitable than level 4 missions in high
Ratting in low might 'seem' ludicrously good, but you forget that there's sov bills to pay for upgrading those systems so you can rat and do sanctums etc. properly. As mentioned somewhere during fanfest, there should be a benefit to holding sov and actually making use of said space by it's members ie. alliance income is generated mainly through it's grunts on the field, not just from the moongoo atm machines and such ( yes I know they don't make isk on themselves, but they do generate income for an alliance, which means that an alliance of supers ( PL? ) without sov and just holding the moons can sustain itself without the need for sov, which is a bad thing imho
High sec incursion payouts should also be lowered, but this has been screamed about to death so no more comment on this from me
Increasing costs of using station services and many of the high sec easy access facilities would also be a good isk sink, perhaps introduce an extra tax on high sec POSses as well, by increasing the cost of charters for instance, or better yet, remove them and institute a flat fee based on security status to the sov holding empire, just like renter corps in null pay to their overlords
Perhaps a very difficult idea to implement, but which would work well imho, would be to have some kind of dynamic isk sink that increases in cost the more isk is generated in the game would be good. Right now, there's a surplus of isk injected into the game every month, stemming this tide through increasing general sinks that are 'across the board' would be a good idea. Possibly things like corp office costs, or general taxation of a corporation by empire factions, increased cost for market operations and taxes, increasing cost of manufacturing things in stations, all dependent on howmuch isk is generated in the game ( say on a monthly basis
Mission LP payouts shouldn't be nerfed though, these aren't an isk faucet, they're isk sinks, as more LP means more purchases in the LP stores, where money is paid to npc corps
Finally, something people seem to forget, another component of inflation is the speed that money moves around. The more is manufactured and sold, thus moving isk to other hands, the more demand there is for manufactured goods, thus increasing their price, as there's more people who have money to spend it on things. With a lot of returning players in Crucible, manufacture of goods has increased by something like 30-40% over the last few months, as there's more people buying things, that means more people are making money, so have more money to spend on things, which means they can buy more stuff, thus increasing demand, which leads to price increase
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
802
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
(throws a lit match into a room filled with powder kegs)
Why does CONCORD / empires pay bounties on rats in non-empire space? Maybe those rats need to drop tags/tokens that have to be hauled back to empire space to turn in for an ISK reward? Or other loot like the "blue" loot in w-space which NPCs will purchase for ISK.
|
Vanguard One
4th Drake Squadron
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death.
By the same token bounties should be nerfed in-null sec too, where the risks are similar to high-sec, especially in the major alliances controlled territories. |
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force Initiative Mercenaries
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
yes make making isk for smaller groups in 00 more difficult. Thats a great way to fix the problem. While this will deal with big groups smaller alliances or corps will be boned. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:
why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ??
I have in the past not really cared. But right now I'm heavily into recruiting for my corp. While I'm fairly successful at doing so there is the occasional failure and it usually goes along these lines:
"Hey, we're in w-space, can make buttloads of isk."
"Nah, that's ok I'm looking for a hisec incursion corp because I can make almost that much risk free."
"Derp"
Technically, I can't really offer anything that a person living in hisec can't already do. They can PVP just like anyone out here, all they need do is probe out wh's from hisec to do so, or go to lowsec on the occasional pvp roam. The only advantage I have is income and apparently anyone in the know knows it's not that far off from incursion running. So, yeah, I think there needs to be incentive to get people out of hisec. 10% reduction is not that big of a deal but, it might be just enough to make people reconsider.
Sure, it's a completely selfish idea. But, no more selfish than people in hisec wanting income levels comparable to other more dangerous types of space. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Vanguard One
4th Drake Squadron
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:(throws a lit match into a room filled with powder kegs)
Why does CONCORD / empires pay bounties on rats in non-empire space? Maybe those rats need to drop tags/tokens that have to be hauled back to empire space to turn in for an ISK reward? Or other loot like the "blue" loot in w-space which NPCs will purchase for ISK.
Good point. |
Vanguard One
4th Drake Squadron
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 14:13:00 -
[60] - Quote
[quote=DarthNefarius] One number I've love to see is the ISK bounties in NULL versus HI versus WH versus LO to really see who is making the best per capita[/quote
Another good point - let's make an informed decision based on facts rather than on the usual stereotypes. |
|
Zircon Dasher
102
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 14:38:00 -
[61] - Quote
According to Diagoras:
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes).
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
457
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 14:56:00 -
[62] - Quote
First thing to do is be patient.
The drone region changes, the new crimewatch, the new wardec system all will contribute to the price inflation picture. The more mineral prices go up, the more people are inclined to do something other than shoot rats. Less people shooting rats means less ISK entering the system. We need to see where it shakes out instead of going into panic mode and hitting every button on the dash board in the hopes that turning on the radio will apply the brakes.
I do agree that reducing bounties is part of the solution, tighten the faucets globally, versus making the sinks larger or more of them randomly across the game just to say there are more sinks. Sinks are a "cost" to someone, people tend to avoid costs. Creating new sinks for mission runners/incursions/WH Blue-Loot would likely take the form of some new module or "stuff". This just trades one form of inflation for another, and in the end will contribute to the deflation side of the picture. So, reduction of bounties across the board will work better. Net income of ISK generation via rat destruction will decrease relative to other activities.
We also have to see more what is ahead in Dust, Dust may turn into a giant ISK vacuum for all we know. |
Jed Mosley
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
19
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 15:05:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kira Vanachura wrote:Prices are still lower than before. We don't need that emergency button pushed - yet. What are you smoking? Drake has gone up by about 15mill isk and the Abaddon roughly 50-75 mill isk Everything is going up. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
42
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 15:14:00 -
[64] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:First thing to do is be patient.
The drone region changes, the new crimewatch, the new wardec system all will contribute to the price inflation picture. The more mineral prices go up, the more people are inclined to do something other than shoot rats. Less people shooting rats means less ISK entering the system. We need to see where it shakes out instead of going into panic mode and hitting every button on the dash board in the hopes that turning on the radio will apply the brakes.
I do agree that reducing bounties is part of the solution, tighten the faucets globally, versus making the sinks larger or more of them randomly across the game just to say there are more sinks. Sinks are a "cost" to someone, people tend to avoid costs. Creating new sinks for mission runners/incursions/WH Blue-Loot would likely take the form of some new module or "stuff". This just trades one form of inflation for another, and in the end will contribute to the deflation side of the picture. So, reduction of bounties across the board will work better. Net income of ISK generation via rat destruction will decrease relative to other activities.
We also have to see more what is ahead in Dust, Dust may turn into a giant ISK vacuum for all we know.
Well said.
I Think CCP should go slow, and for another reason as well. The Titan nerf.
After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf.
Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf... |
Zircon Dasher
102
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 15:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
Players moving from null to high is not necessarily a bad thing though. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 16:02:00 -
[66] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras:
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes).
Wormhole blue loot exceeded that & wormhole nano ribbons abolutlely dwarfed that. Bounties amounted to 30 friggin' Trillion bounties before Incursions should be nerfed if you REALLY want to do jack about inflation!!!
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 16:06:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
We also have to see more what is ahead in Dust, Dust may turn into a giant ISK vacuum for all we know.
Well said. After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf. Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
Wait a sec Titan pilots were making 300M isk/hour & now they are bitching about Incursions that make 1/2 that in hi sec??? WHAT A BUNCH OF SNIVILING WHINEY HYPOCRITES!!!
TITANS are SOO much more frigging SHINEY then anything an Incursion pilot could ever fly! Talking about out of proportion wallets & ISK making that deserves NERFs And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
darmwand
Repo.
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 16:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Being a friendly gentleman from low-sec I don't really understand the concept of "making ISK" rather than continuously being broke
However
I think one thing to keep in mind when nerfing high-sec income is that, in order to fight those fancy new wardecs of yours, people will probably need moneys. Especially the more risk-adverse players that (I assume) populate high-sec will be even less willing to try out what counts as PvP over there if you take away their ISK. And I think we all (or many of us) agree that getting more people into PvP is A Good Thing(tm).
Just a thought. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 16:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Being a friendly gentleman from low-sec I don't really understand the concept of "making ISK" rather than continuously being broke
Just a thought.
Friendly & living in NULL?? There's whyour broke... I thought only blood thirsty arse hats live there :P Sounds like YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG if you are broke & friendly in NULL And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
darmwand
Repo.
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 16:41:00 -
[70] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Friendly & living in NULL?? There's whyour broke... I thought only blood thirsty arse hats live there :P Sounds like YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG if you are broke & friendly in NULL
low, not null darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
|
Ildryn
X Inc.
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 19:37:00 -
[71] - Quote
Vanguard One wrote:equcin meey wrote:Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death. By the same token bounties should be nerfed in-null sec too, where the risks are similar to high-sec, especially in the major alliances controlled territories.
Any security they enjoy is enforced by hundreds possibly thousands of people. The danger is being removed by real players.
High sec mission runners on the majority are doing it solo or with and alt (see solo).
Wrap your head around that.
End Incursions!!! Reduce high sec bounties!!! Everyone kill tards like Vanguard One until they can see past their wallet!!! |
Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 19:48:00 -
[72] - Quote
lets remove bounties completely and replace them with some sort of loot. maybe loot that can be refined into minerals. just trying to think outside the box here... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras:
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes).
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many. Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered? |
Eternum Praetorian
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
522
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
If you can make 50M isk in (insert amount of time) to buy a ship that costs 50M isk, then you get a ship.
Alternatively....
You can make 100M isk in (insert amount of time) to buy that same ship now costing 100M ISK, you still get the same ship.
It's the same damn ship, and the same amount of time.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
460
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote: Wait a sec Titan pilots were making 300M isk/hour & now they are bitching about Incursions that make 1/2 that in hi sec??? WHAT A BUNCH OF SNIVILING WHINEY HYPOCRITES!!!
TITANS are SOO much more frigging SHINEY then anything an Incursion pilot could ever fly! Talking about out of proportion wallets & ISK making that deserves NERFs
Everyone knows you are doing your best to protect incursion income. You have been for weeks now. Time to step outside your own selfish wants and join the conversation. |
Stella SGP
64
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:42:00 -
[76] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons.
Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds.
At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be.
A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter. At least now we know why you as a ceo in nullsec is stuck as only a pvp corp ceo and not a part of its high command and have no access to the tech isk...
I've highlighted the points of interest for you. |
Azureite
Troodonts
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
I concur with the OP, rat bounties should be decreased. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Haikato Saraki wrote:Just do it. Dont wait for it to become a problem, just do it now, or soon, or whenever, just don't save the option as some kind of "save the universe" button because by the time its that big of a problem it will be too late.
10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. You talked at fanfest about shifting more and more NPC services into the hands of players. I believe something along the lines of "your all grown up now, you can run jita" was said. Well that's great, Im excited for that! But the more NPC's you put out of a job the more isk-sinks you plug up.
So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it.
Alternatively, we could switch it from ISK to raw inputs. But I see to problems with this:
1.Only Null Bears deserve access to raw inputs.
2.It doesn't punish High Sec.
So really, my idea, while it would actually work, is a non-starter from go. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
460
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:02:00 -
[79] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:lets remove bounties completely and replace them with some sort of loot. maybe loot that can be refined into minerals. just trying to think outside the box here...
Loot that can be traded in for security standings, Faction standings? - rat tags. Also items that can be smuggled and new mechanics and reasons to smuggle.
Smuggling allows players to profit while possibly loosing faction standing, rat tags allows them to recover faction standing. This will consume the rat tags. Regular piracy consumes security status, buying security standing consumes the rat tags as well.
This could perhaps create a condition where normal game play consumes some arbitrary value, standings, and to repair that number one needs to buy and trade in these tags. Modification of how much the tags apply to the standings, would allow CCP to have a global valve upon the value of the tags, with out having to mess around with the drop rates too much, x rank rat = x rank tag, done. In this way, assuming enough tags are widely held, standings can commoditized and consumed. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:DarthNefarius wrote: Wait a sec Titan pilots were making 300M isk/hour & now they are bitching about Incursions that make 1/2 that in hi sec??? WHAT A BUNCH OF SNIVILING WHINEY HYPOCRITES!!!
TITANS are SOO much more frigging SHINEY then anything an Incursion pilot could ever fly! Talking about out of proportion wallets & ISK making that deserves NERFs
Everyone knows you are doing your best to protect incursion income. You have been for weeks now. Time to step outside your own selfish wants and join the conversation.
And everyone knows the ral reason for inflation isn't Incursions butt the other bigger faucets. Balance the 2 bigger faucets before or at the same time as mine. Peeps been attacking my home for months I have every right to tell them the truth is really that non incursion factors spiked plex & prices more by multiple factors
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
|
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:(throws a lit match into a room filled with powder kegs)
Why does CONCORD / empires pay bounties on rats in non-empire space? Maybe those rats need to drop tags/tokens that have to be hauled back to empire space to turn in for an ISK reward? Or other loot like the "blue" loot in w-space which NPCs will purchase for ISK.
I am cool with this, as it would create opportunities for new professions based more on player interaction than the current system (e.g. middle men buying tags from ratters in 0.0 and shipping them to empire).
Tie it in with the idea Greyscale proposed at Fanfest for allowing gankers to buy back sec status with NPC tags and things start to get interesting. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Haikato Saraki wrote:Just do it. 10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it. Alternatively, we could switch it from ISK to raw inputs. But I see two problems with this: 1.Only Null Bears deserve access to raw inputs. 2.It doesn't punish High Sec. So really, my idea, while it would actually work, is a non-starter from go.
1)Null bears mining it the deep risk free SOV's don't deserve these monpolies 2)Why punish HI sec? NULL seccers deserve all the spankings HI sec isfilled with the good guys
Yep non starter And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
54
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Im carebear and i no it. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
460
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:26:00 -
[84] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote: And everyone knows the ral reason for inflation isn't Incursions butt the other bigger faucets. Balance the 2 bigger faucets before or at the same time as mine.
They all need balance of one form or another. Incursions contribute to the monetary inflation, this can't be argued against. Adding 1 ISK by trading some NPC good adds to it as well. No one activity is immune in this conversation. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
484
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:Rico Minali wrote:As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons.
Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds.
At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be.
A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter. At least now we know why you as a ceo in nullsec is stuck as only a pvp corp ceo and not a part of its high command and have no access to the tech isk... I've highlighted the points of interest for you.
Are you as stupid as you appear? I dont need to have points in my post highlighted to me, I know what I wrote and I know why I wrote them. I dont want to be part of any alliance high command, looking after my corp is far more important to me. So, woudld you like to explain your post? Because basically it doesnt say anything.
Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Im carebear and i no it.
Now who can argue with that. |
Stella SGP
64
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Are you as stupid as you appear? I dont need to have points in my post highlighted to me, I know what I wrote and I know why I wrote them. I dont want to be part of any alliance high command, looking after my corp is far more important to me. So, woudld you like to explain your post? Because basically it doesnt say anything.
And your post brings redundent and irrelevant opinions in regards to the OP as well. Thread is about ISK faucets, not about how moons "create" ISK and how its used.
Since you know what you wrote and why you wrote them... care to explain how moons inject ISK into the economy? |
Zircon Dasher
102
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:05:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes)
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered?
It is roughly the same as making 32m/hour doing 1hr of PVE 5d a week
Unfortunately the 642m/mo figure assumes that the ISK is distributed equally. It isn't.
Dr. E said that the majority of the payouts go to a relatively small % of the entire incursion running community. There was no mention about why the distribution may be this way, but it seems reasonable to assume the disparity stems from site competition. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:28:00 -
[89] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes)
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered? It is roughly the same as making 32m/hour doing 1hr of PVE 5d a week Unfortunately the 642m/mo figure assumes that the ISK is distributed equally. It isn't. Dr. E said that the majority of the payouts go to a relatively small % of the entire incursion running community. There was no mention about why the distribution may be this way, but it seems reasonable to assume the disparity stems from site competition. Good point, I know I'm on the low side of that average, but considering fleets I'm in aren't running all Pirate BS's and I don't run that often, it's to be expected. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
111
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:28:00 -
[90] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes)
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered? It is roughly the same as making 32m/hour doing 1hr of PVE 5d a week Unfortunately the 642m/mo figure assumes that the ISK is distributed equally. It isn't. Dr. E said that the majority of the payouts go to a relatively small % of the entire incursion running community. There was no mention about why the distribution may be this way, but it seems reasonable to assume the disparity stems from site competition.
You want to see the smallest distributions look to how few the moon goo faucet's procedes ends up!!! At least while the mining faucets end up in mostly BOT's pockets some of it goes else where not sooo with goo ( or nano ribbons for that matter ) And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
|
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
489
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:31:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Since the nerfing of bounties directly affects the creation of isk, doesn't that count as an effect on money supply?
It reduces the volume at which ISK is introduced. That just slows the inevitable.
ISK is used as a point system in the game. It has a dual use. I do a mission, I get 500K points...the symbol for the points being ISK. These can then be used to transact. Take away the reward for activity in a game, take away the point of the activity. You could also look at ISK as fuel. It fuels your potential in the game. The more you have the further you can go.
You have to imagine running missions for the real reason you'd run missions, to actually protect the interests of the sovereignty for whom you mission. Altruism. Fat chance, right? However, doing that, making no ISK rewards for anything wouldn't actually take ISK out of circulation either. If so much is in the economy that inflation exists, you'd have to extract some.
Okay...no "Federal Reserve Bank" here. From whom do you extract it? Ta da! Taxation. However, you'd have to stop putting money in, while at the same time taxing it out. If this were a nation, and we were actual citizens, that might be doable...without riots.
But, this is a game. People function on the activity/rewards ethos in games. Ain't gonna happen. Unfortunately, therefore CCP is locked in place. The measures that would work, they can't employ and still keep their players.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
You want to see the smallest distributions look to how few the moon goo faucet's procedes ends up!!! At least while the mining faucets end up in mostly BOT's pockets some of it goes else where not sooo with goo ( or nano ribbons for that matter )
nanoribbons is material faucet
and isk from moon goo is used to pay for sov bill + ship replacement program, too many ppl been explaining this, you hisec bear just cant read and understand, all you see is your big fat wallet |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:46:00 -
[93] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes)
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered? It is roughly the same as making 32m/hour doing 1hr of PVE 5d a week Unfortunately the 642m/mo figure assumes that the ISK is distributed equally. It isn't. Dr. E said that the majority of the payouts go to a relatively small % of the entire incursion running community. There was no mention about why the distribution may be this way, but it seems reasonable to assume the disparity stems from site competition. You want to see the smallest distributions look to how few the moon goo faucet's procedes ends up!!! At least while the mining faucets end up in mostly BOT's pockets some of it goes else where not sooo with goo ( or nano ribbons for that matter ) WH salvage and moon goo are a separate discussion as they are not an isk faucet. Really I see no issues with WH's and don't have much of an oppinion of moon goo, though it seems everyone else has reached a consensus on that. Really, the only reason these items cost what they do is because of the value we place on the end products. So basically, if you don't like them getting what they do, stop buying T2/T3 ships. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 22:51:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: WH salvage and moon goo are a separate discussion as they are not an isk faucet. Really I see no issues with WH's and don't have much of an oppinion of moon goo, though it seems everyone else has reached a consensus on that. Really, the only reason these items cost what they do is because of the value we place on the end products. So basically, if you don't like them getting what they do, stop buying T2/T3 ships.
very good point, stop flying T3, prices will drop.
and those 2 above are material faucet for all you bears still whining
|
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:16:00 -
[95] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
You want to see the smallest distributions look to how few the moon goo faucet's procedes ends up!!! At least while the mining faucets end up in mostly BOT's pockets some of it goes else where not sooo with goo ( or nano ribbons for that matter )
nanoribbons is material faucet and isk from moon goo is used to pay for sov bill + ship replacement program, too many ppl been explaining this, you hisec bear just cant read and understand, all you see is your big fat wallet
Read again what I posted you dim wit: I didn't call either an ISK faucet t and hey are faucets that end up lining the pockets of a very very few be they mineral or catalyst faucets And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:According to Diagoras
13,865 characters got an incursion payout in Jan for a grand total of 8.9T ISK (8.1T after taxes)
Interesting, i wasn't aware there were than many Edit: I fail at earning isk so I have to ask, how good/bad is 642mill isk/month considered? It is roughly the same as making 32m/hour doing 1hr of PVE 5d a week Unfortunately the 642m/mo figure assumes that the ISK is distributed equally. It isn't. Dr. E said that the majority of the payouts go to a relatively small % of the entire incursion running community. There was no mention about why the distribution may be this way, but it seems reasonable to assume the disparity stems from site competition. You want to see the smallest distributions look to how few the moon goo faucet's procedes ends up!!! At least while the mining faucets end up in mostly BOT's pockets some of it goes else where not sooo with goo ( or nano ribbons for that matter ) WH salvage and moon goo are a separate discussion as they are not an isk faucet. Really I see no issues with WH's and don't have much of an oppinion of moon goo, though it seems everyone else has reached a consensus on that. Really, the only reason these items cost what they do is because of the value we place on the end products. So basically, if you don't like them getting what they do, stop buying T2/T3 ships.
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:26:00 -
[97] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: WH salvage and moon goo are a separate discussion as they are not an isk faucet. Really I see no issues with WH's and don't have much of an oppinion of moon goo, though it seems everyone else has reached a consensus on that. Really, the only reason these items cost what they do is because of the value we place on the end products. So basically, if you don't like them getting what they do, stop buying T2/T3 ships.
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse They aren't inflationary income as they do not spawn isk, and as such, are not subject to the discussion at hand. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
510
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:28:00 -
[98] - Quote
You should read the Crimewatch thread. I think CCP Greyscale is on top of this one... and the solution they are talking about will remove a lot more than 10% from the bounties and keep everyone happy at the same time.
|
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:37:00 -
[99] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse
only incursion runnners complain about wh and null income, while the whole eve complain about incursion!!!!!! |
Zircon Dasher
105
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: However, doing that, making no ISK rewards for anything wouldn't actually take ISK out of circulation either. If so much is in the economy that inflation exists, you'd have to extract some.
Umm....no. "Inflation" does not work that way.
For illustration purposes assume that the economy is perfectly responsive (no lag). All things being equal:
As ISK supply increases so does the cost for the goods basket. If the ISK supply remains unchanged then so does the cost of the goods basket. If the cost of the goods basket remains unchanged then there is no "inflation". |
|
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: WH salvage and moon goo are a separate discussion as they are not an isk faucet. Really I see no issues with WH's and don't have much of an oppinion of moon goo, though it seems everyone else has reached a consensus on that. Really, the only reason these items cost what they do is because of the value we place on the end products. So basically, if you don't like them getting what they do, stop buying T2/T3 ships.
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse They aren't inflationary income as they do not spawn isk, and as such, are not subject to the discussion at hand.
Next thing you'll tell me is oil doesn't affect inflation genius? And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
461
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 23:57:00 -
[102] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote: ... faucets that end up lining the pockets of a very very few be they mineral or catalyst faucets
And ring mining will help reduce that concentration, just as there is a concentration in some other activities. More than just incursions are getting a look over.
If you are not willing to see things in their entirety, then CCP will be nerfing you from today to your last day on Eve. |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 00:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse
only incursion runnners complain about wh and null income, while the whole eve complain about incursion!!!!!!
bull crap I heard at the Fanfest peeps that must've just crawled out thier holes wanting moon goo in worm hole space. Its not just incursion runners that realize the imbalances of moon goo only for NULL or nano ribbons only for WH's you think so YOU ARE DEAF DUMB & BLIND And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 00:02:00 -
[104] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:DarthNefarius wrote: ... faucets that end up lining the pockets of a very very few be they mineral or catalyst faucets And ring mining will help reduce that concentration, just as there is a concentration in some other activities. More than just incursions are getting a look over. If you are not willing to see things in their entirety, then CCP will be nerfing you from today to your last day on Eve.
sO THAT'LL BE A nerf on moon goo finally when it gets implamented? who knows I doubt even CCP does. How long until ribbons start being salvaged in NULL or HI SEC?!?! I hope we get a sleeper incursion to spread out that faucet in the near future!!! And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 00:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse
only incursion runnners complain about wh and null income, while the whole eve complain about incursion!!!!!! bull crap I heard at the Fanfest peeps that must've just crawled out thier holes wanting moon goo in worm hole space. Its not just incursion runners that realize the imbalances of moon goo only for NULL or nano ribbons only for WH's you think so YOU ARE DEAF DUMB & BLIND AQUILA, AHARM, RnK those are a few entity in wh, show me when do they complain about moon goo or just some dumb f*** getting drunk???
when do Goons, PL or any other big alliance complain about nano in wh??
|
DarthNefarius
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 00:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
bull crap nano ribbons and moon goo are income ( income isn'talways monetary & is taxable according to the tax man where I live ) can there fore I have every right to include them here in the thread discussion of income distributions ya jack arse
only incursion runnners complain about wh and null income, while the whole eve complain about incursion!!!!!! bull crap I heard at the Fanfest peeps that must've just crawled out thier holes wanting moon goo in worm hole space. Its not just incursion runners that realize the imbalances of moon goo only for NULL or nano ribbons only for WH's you think so YOU ARE DEAF DUMB & BLIND AQUILA, AHARM, RnK those are a few entity in wh, show me when do they complain about moon goo or just some dumb f*** getting drunk??? when do Goons, PL or any other big alliance complain about nano in wh??
go back & listen to the Q&A's at fanfests & you'll hear people asking why there's no moon mining in WH's... its been in the forums too. Alliaances are SCREAMING for worm hole stabilizers too And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 00:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
who are those guys, btw??
are they some nameless guys living in C1??
wh stablilizer, isnt it just another tool for encouraging blobing??
only until two step whine about wh dont have goon, sir please dont accuse us whers.
last thing whers want is null-like wh |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:03:00 -
[108] - Quote
Wow, so much focused on statistics that mean little
Everyone looks at inflation and the amount of ISK that people can make preforming various activities in the game and points a finger at the other side implying they are at fault. The economy of EVE is actually fairly simple, you have 4 boundary regions, ISK producers, material producers, ISK extractors and mineral extractors. ISK producers are almost exclusively centered around bounties, material producers are mining and ratting, ISK extractors are almost exclusively centered on transaction taxing and material extractors are almost exclusively through object destruction (player).
If you decrease the cost of bounties, you will not solve the inflation problem... at all. Doesn't matter whom you target (null, low, hi, WH... its irrelevant) Inflation will accrue slower, but will not be removed from the game. To illustrate this point, lets look at 2 people who represent 2 major groups of characters in the game, the miner/indy pilot and the combat pilot. Lets assume they are pure in their respective roles
The indy pilot can get all materials required for manufacturing through the material generators, at no cost of ISK. This is the input. He can use these materials to produce all of the good within the universe, costing again, no ISK. A full allotment of armaments are produce to be sold to the combat pilot, without ISK cost for the indy pilot.
The combat pilot uses ratting/missoning to produce his ISK to trade with the indy pilot for goods. This is the ISK generator, it also produces materials, but we'll leave those out for simplicity sake. The combat pilot engages in combat which invariably results in destruction of ships, i.e. PVP. This is a material extractor. The materials used to produce the ship, in general, are gone from the game.
The indy pilot receives the ISK from the combat pilot in exchange for the items. The items can be/will be destroyed, removing those materials from the game. However, the indy pilot with no ISK cost for producing the items accumulates the ISK generated from the combat pilot. The only source of extraction for ISK are through other NPC functions, such as taxes, brokers fees, insurance (which is usually an ISK GENERATOR), NPC seeded items..
Materials don't quite have the same problem since everything created by players (costing materials) can be destroyed by players (removing the materials from the game). No such mechanisms for ISK exist. It is a fundamental flaw that CCP has failed to recognize/do anything about.
Now this simplified example isn't the EVE universe exactly, but it is close enough to illustrate the issue at hand. The real problem isn't the rate in which ISK is brought into the game, but rather how quickly it is removed. Reduce ISK income by 10% and you will eventually result in a 10% reduction in ISK removal (initially higher until combat pilot isk reserves begin to decline a little bit with still higher cost of ships vs income), which is a stupid move since ISK removal is a percentage of ISK income in the first place
The core problem is that people can only spend what they have, thus taxes, broker's fees, these things only remove a percentage of ISK exchanged, thus they only remove a percentage of ISK generated in the game. To stop inflation ISK Generation has to be approximately equal to ISK extraction if you have perfect fluidity of ISK within the market (i.e. ISK is not overly concentrated in specific demographics) or proportional ISK extraction rates for concentrated demographics. |
Zircon Dasher
106
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
Cunanium wrote: Inflation will accrue slower, but will not be removed from the game
Which is all that is needed. Slightly higher taxes + slightly lower faucets = slower rate that is within the range CCP has decided is "just right".
EDIT:
Given another thread here in GD it seemed a good time to mention that ISK is removed in other ways besides taxes. "Illegal" ISK is also sinked out of the game, people leave, etc. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:32:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Wow, so much focused on statistics that mean little
Everyone looks at inflation and the amount of ISK that people can make preforming various activities in the game and points a finger at the other side implying they are at fault. The economy of EVE is actually fairly simple, you have 4 boundary regions, ISK producers, material producers, ISK extractors and mineral extractors. ISK producers are almost exclusively centered around bounties, material producers are mining and ratting, ISK extractors are almost exclusively centered on transaction taxing and material extractors are almost exclusively through object destruction (player).
If you decrease the cost of bounties, you will not solve the inflation problem... at all. Doesn't matter whom you target (null, low, hi, WH... its irrelevant) Inflation will accrue slower, but will not be removed from the game. To illustrate this point, lets look at 2 people who represent 2 major groups of characters in the game, the miner/indy pilot and the combat pilot. Lets assume they are pure in their respective roles
The indy pilot can get all materials required for manufacturing through the material generators, at no cost of ISK. This is the input. He can use these materials to produce all of the good within the universe, costing again, no ISK. A full allotment of armaments are produce to be sold to the combat pilot, without ISK cost for the indy pilot.
The combat pilot uses ratting/missoning to produce his ISK to trade with the indy pilot for goods. This is the ISK generator, it also produces materials, but we'll leave those out for simplicity sake. The combat pilot engages in combat which invariably results in destruction of ships, i.e. PVP. This is a material extractor. The materials used to produce the ship, in general, are gone from the game.
The indy pilot receives the ISK from the combat pilot in exchange for the items. The items can be/will be destroyed, removing those materials from the game. However, the indy pilot with no ISK cost for producing the items accumulates the ISK generated from the combat pilot. The only source of extraction for ISK are through other NPC functions, such as taxes, brokers fees, insurance (which is usually an ISK GENERATOR), NPC seeded items..
Materials don't quite have the same problem since everything created by players (costing materials) can be destroyed by players (removing the materials from the game). No such mechanisms for ISK exist. It is a fundamental flaw that CCP has failed to recognize/do anything about.
Now this simplified example isn't the EVE universe exactly, but it is close enough to illustrate the issue at hand. The real problem isn't the rate in which ISK is brought into the game, but rather how quickly it is removed. Reduce ISK income by 10% and you will eventually result in a 10% reduction in ISK removal (initially higher until combat pilot isk reserves begin to decline a little bit with still higher cost of ships vs income), which is a stupid move since ISK removal is a percentage of ISK income in the first place
The core problem is that people can only spend what they have, thus taxes, broker's fees, these things only remove a percentage of ISK exchanged, thus they only remove a percentage of ISK generated in the game. To stop inflation ISK Generation has to be approximately equal to ISK extraction if you have perfect fluidity of ISK within the market (i.e. ISK is not overly concentrated in specific demographics) or proportional ISK extraction rates for concentrated demographics. Production and market participation is rarely free. |
|
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:36:00 -
[111] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Cunanium wrote: Inflation will accrue slower, but will not be removed from the game Which is all that is needed. Slightly higher taxes + slightly lower faucets = slower rate that is within the range CCP has decided is "just right".
The form of accrue in this context is an absolute value, not a percentage. I did not clarify this, my bad. With reduced incomes, the combat pilots will initially PVP less due to the increased relative cost of PVP, however, with the continued production of materials, the costs will eventually return to a normal percentage of income.
In the end, you are at the same location with reduced incomes, the values are different. If the game generates 100isk but only rejects 10 isk, it is no different from a game play stand point as a game that generates 100 trillion isk and rejects 10 trillion isk, its just a different set of zeros on the end.
Even taxes really wont effect the removal rate of ISK in the game. You can take the tax values and push them all the way to the left, (equating them to an income reduction) and you get the exact same settling point.
The core problem is there are no mechanisms to remove ISK from the game as materials are removed. If you look at the EVE economy as a control volume problem, materials are a self regulating and stable steady state economy. The more materials in game, the less things cost, the more combat pilots fight, the more materials are removed from the game. ISK has no such mechanism, removal is either through voluntary means (sov, ect.) or through percentage exchange rates (taxes, brokers fees) which only remove a percentage of income. Thus ISK is an unstable system that will, perpetually, be unstable. Until a mechanism is added that removes ISK as materials are removed, inflation within the game will always be a problem. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:42:00 -
[112] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Production and market participation is rarely free.
Production from a pure standpoint has a fixed start-up cost with no running costs. A indy pilot must purchase the BPO's to produce the BPC's. Everything else is provided in game and is free. What you may be refering to is a mixture of combat aspect of the game and optimization, i.e. indy pilots purchasing materials from another person who produced the materials for free to increase their efficiency at a specific task, basic principles of trade here.
But when you look at this from a control volume stand point, minerals and materials are injected into the game with no cost of gaining them (there is no ISK removed from the game). |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 01:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Production and market participation is rarely free.
Production from a pure standpoint has a fixed start-up cost with no running costs. A indy pilot must purchase the BPO's to produce the BPC's. Everything else is provided in game and is free. What you may be refering to is a mixture of combat aspect of the game and optimization, i.e. indy pilots purchasing materials from another person who produced the materials for free to increase their efficiency at a specific task, basic principles of trade here. But when you look at this from a control volume stand point, minerals and materials are injected into the game with no cost of gaining them (there is no ISK removed from the game). I was more referring to the cost likely to be incurred as one moves through the production process.
NPC manufacturing and research costs Cost of charters for highsec POS's used for manufacturing Market broker fees and transaction taxes
Things of that nature. Additionally the loss of assets, which can happen even to producers, provides incentive to keep isk moving and generate additional loss to isk sinks. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 02:22:00 -
[114] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Production and market participation is rarely free.
Production from a pure standpoint has a fixed start-up cost with no running costs. A indy pilot must purchase the BPO's to produce the BPC's. Everything else is provided in game and is free. What you may be refering to is a mixture of combat aspect of the game and optimization, i.e. indy pilots purchasing materials from another person who produced the materials for free to increase their efficiency at a specific task, basic principles of trade here. But when you look at this from a control volume stand point, minerals and materials are injected into the game with no cost of gaining them (there is no ISK removed from the game). I was more referring to the cost likely to be incurred as one moves through the production process. NPC manufacturing and research costs Cost of charters for highsec POS's used for manufacturing Market broker fees and transaction taxes Things of that nature. Additionally the loss of assets, which can happen even to producers, provides incentive to keep isk moving and generate additional loss to isk sinks.
-Broker fees and transaction taxes are already covered (they are both taxes, pushed them to the left they are the same as an income reduction, doesn't effect the settle point). -Highsec POS's are optional costs that do not equate to 100% ISK reduction, or even a significant fraction of it. -Manufacturing costs are taxes, see above. -Research costs are initial costs, same as with purchasing BPO's to research. They do not effect the steady state solution.
Edit: forgot about your loss of assets, that's combat. Any interaction that results in the destruction of an item is combat, it does not effect ISK at all, unless you can shoot someone and do ISK damage... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 02:31:00 -
[115] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Production and market participation is rarely free.
Production from a pure standpoint has a fixed start-up cost with no running costs. A indy pilot must purchase the BPO's to produce the BPC's. Everything else is provided in game and is free. What you may be refering to is a mixture of combat aspect of the game and optimization, i.e. indy pilots purchasing materials from another person who produced the materials for free to increase their efficiency at a specific task, basic principles of trade here. But when you look at this from a control volume stand point, minerals and materials are injected into the game with no cost of gaining them (there is no ISK removed from the game). I was more referring to the cost likely to be incurred as one moves through the production process. NPC manufacturing and research costs Cost of charters for highsec POS's used for manufacturing Market broker fees and transaction taxes Things of that nature. Additionally the loss of assets, which can happen even to producers, provides incentive to keep isk moving and generate additional loss to isk sinks. -Broker fees and transaction taxes are already covered (they are both taxes, pushed them to the left they are the same as an income reduction, doesn't effect the settle point). -Highsec POS's are optional costs that do not equate to 100% ISK reduction, or even a significant fraction of it. -Manufacturing costs are taxes, see above. -Research costs are initial costs, same as with purchasing BPO's to research. They do not effect the steady state solution. Edit: forgot about your loss of assets, that's combat. Any interaction that results in the destruction of an item is combat, it does not effect ISK at all, unless you can shoot someone and do ISK damage... Wasn't referring to isk loss from damage, or isk loss at all for that matter, but rather isk transfer. The thing i disagree with you on is the need for acquisition of materials to nullify isk being generated. If they did so it woud only create another taxlike structure and artificially inflate prices to compensate, unless I'm not getting what you are meaning, which appears to be the case. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 02:53:00 -
[116] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Wasn't referring to isk loss from damage, or isk loss at all for that matter, but rather isk transfer. The thing i disagree with you on is the need for acquisition of materials to nullify isk being generated. If they did so it woud only create another taxlike structure and artificially inflate prices to compensate, unless I'm not getting what you are meaning, which appears to be the case.
Heres a graphic of what I am talking about.
Materials Miner gets minerals -------> Manufacturer builds items ----------> combat pilot gets blown up --------> materials leave game forever
ISK Combat pilot kills rats-------->Pays for items from manufacturer--------->Manufacturer buys minerals -------> Miner makes money
In the case of materials, at the end of the progression through the production process, the materials leave the game, absolutely. Its a fairly simple system, but an effective system that has self balancing. ISK on the other hand does not. The miner and manufacturer always sell at a profit (who wouldn't), which means that ISK doesn't leave the game.
There currently exists no circular recycling system for ISK, all costs associated with manufacturing/ect result in a reduced profit. Reduced profit means less total income remaining in the game less total income remaining can be shown to be the exact same as reducing income (attacking the combat pilot, the source of ISK), which reduces the pace of the game, requiring more farming for a single hour of intense game play. But in the end, it is still a ridiculous inflation rate.
Edit for your edit: Taxation is always a percentage of the income, you cannot currently be taxed more than is generated in the game (there are no loans to NPC's to remove more ISK than is injected...). Most exchanges are limited to 2 taxation brackets, the purchase of materials for manufacture then the purchase of the item by the end user. There are cases when items are repackaged and sold again, but this is far from a reliable means to count on ISK removal from the game, and still doesn't solve the problem of wholesale removal of ISK.
I have not proposed a solution outside of a means in which ISK leaves the game at a proportional rate to how it is generated. At the end of the ISK progression, there should be a way to "delete" it, like materials. Don't get my wrong, I am not saying miners should be charged, or anyone should be charged, I am saying that the "for profit" system has a problem if everyone is making profit at the end of the day. ISK is not a zero sum game. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 03:24:00 -
[117] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Wasn't referring to isk loss from damage, or isk loss at all for that matter, but rather isk transfer. The thing i disagree with you on is the need for acquisition of materials to nullify isk being generated. If they did so it woud only create another taxlike structure and artificially inflate prices to compensate, unless I'm not getting what you are meaning, which appears to be the case.
Heres a graphic of what I am talking about. Materials Miner gets minerals -------> Manufacturer builds items ----------> combat pilot gets blown up --------> materials leave game forever ISK Combat pilot kills rats-------->Pays for items from manufacturer--------->Manufacturer buys minerals -------> Miner makes money In the case of materials, at the end of the progression through the production process, the materials leave the game, absolutely. Its a fairly simple system, but an effective system that has self balancing. ISK on the other hand does not. The miner and manufacturer always sell at a profit (who wouldn't), which means that ISK doesn't leave the game. There currently exists no circular recycling system for ISK, all costs associated with manufacturing/ect result in a reduced profit. Reduced profit means less total income remaining in the game less total income remaining can be shown to be the exact same as reducing income (attacking the combat pilot, the source of ISK), which reduces the pace of the game, requiring more farming for a single hour of intense game play. But in the end, it is still a ridiculous inflation rate. Edit for your edit: Taxation is always a percentage of the income, you cannot currently be taxed more than is generated in the game (there are no loans to NPC's to remove more ISK than is injected...). Most exchanges are limited to 2 taxation brackets, the purchase of materials for manufacture then the purchase of the item by the end user. There are cases when items are repackaged and sold again, but this is far from a reliable means to count on ISK removal from the game, and still doesn't solve the problem of wholesale removal of ISK. I have not proposed a solution outside of a means in which ISK leaves the game at a proportional rate to how it is generated. At the end of the ISK progression, there should be a way to "delete" it, like materials. Don't get my wrong, I am not saying miners should be charged, or anyone should be charged, I am saying that the "for profit" system has a problem if everyone is making profit at the end of the day. ISK is not a zero sum game. In the simplified version, yes, what you say is correct. I'd argue that is is too simple though. While isk lost through taxation is proportional it accumulates over repeated transfers. This was what I was referring to at the end of the edit. If there are more reasons to transfer isk while making the same and incurring more loss on those transfers the system comes further into balance. Will it ever completely balance? No, but there should be some allowance for growth which requires the money supply in game to increase over time, it's just too fast at the moment. As such one method is to reduce income while maintaining static sinks (LP stores/sov/NPC services). In the end, even if it all corrects income to price ratio wise we still have a more effective set of static sinks. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 03:47:00 -
[118] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: In the simplified version, yes, what you say is correct. I'd argue that is is too simple though. While isk lost through taxation is proportional it accumulates over repeated transfers. This was what I was referring to at the end of the edit. If there are more reasons to transfer isk while making the same and incurring more loss on those transfers the system comes further into balance. Will it ever completely balance? No, but there should be some allowance for growth which requires the money supply in game to increase over time, it's just too fast at the moment. As such one method is to reduce income while maintaining static sinks (LP stores/sov/NPC services). In the end, even if it all corrects income to price ratio wise we still have a more effective set of static sinks.
Taxation compounding is a geometric series and is bounded from below by zero, not equal to it and the probability density for repeated transfers of an item approaches zero at a much faster rate than the taxation series. Almost all current sinks are optional sinks with self regulating mechanisms currently. Sov, most alliances claim sov on a limited number of systems, the most useful, to maintain their sov bill. Manufacturing in empire space vs null sec vs WH. A corp can become entirely self sufficient, i.e. without isk, operating in WH space, minus the pos fuel requirements.
Most of the sinks/removal techniques are optional things, splurge items. Alliances will be choosier about their Sov systems, people will be less inclined to manufacture at a pos in empire space, less people will purchase LP items, ect.
Ultimately the inflation that CCP wants will require the final leg of the ISK progression to make almost nothing (he of course will not be the only one, supply and demand says that taxation/income will be spread equally among all parties with profitability forces making people shift from farming rats to mining/manufacturing) since that is the accumulation point.
It would be much easier to institute a mechanism to "delete" ISK as materials are deleted, it could be fine tuned to manage the inflation rate at something appropriate (this is similar to what the Fed does in the United States, directly controlling the amount of money that is placed in circulation) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 03:55:00 -
[119] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: In the simplified version, yes, what you say is correct. I'd argue that is is too simple though. While isk lost through taxation is proportional it accumulates over repeated transfers. This was what I was referring to at the end of the edit. If there are more reasons to transfer isk while making the same and incurring more loss on those transfers the system comes further into balance. Will it ever completely balance? No, but there should be some allowance for growth which requires the money supply in game to increase over time, it's just too fast at the moment. As such one method is to reduce income while maintaining static sinks (LP stores/sov/NPC services). In the end, even if it all corrects income to price ratio wise we still have a more effective set of static sinks.
Taxation compounding is a geometric series and is bounded from below by zero, not equal to it and the probability density for repeated transfers of an item approaches zero at a much faster rate than the taxation series. Almost all current sinks are optional sinks with self regulating mechanisms currently. Sov, most alliances claim sov on a limited number of systems, the most useful, to maintain their sov bill. Manufacturing in empire space vs null sec vs WH. A corp can become entirely self sufficient, i.e. without isk, operating in WH space, minus the pos fuel requirements. Most of the sinks/removal techniques are optional things, splurge items. Alliances will be choosier about their Sov systems, people will be less inclined to manufacture at a pos in empire space, less people will purchase LP items, ect. Ultimately the inflation that CCP wants will require the final leg of the ISK progression to make almost nothing (he of course will not be the only one, supply and demand says that taxation/income will be spread equally among all parties with profitability forces making people shift from farming rats to mining/manufacturing) since that is the accumulation point. It would be much easier to institute a mechanism to "delete" ISK as materials are deleted, it could be fine tuned to manage the inflation rate at something appropriate (this is similar to what the Fed does in the United States, directly controlling the amount of money that is placed in circulation) That works for the Fed, but how would this be accomplished is a system that allows no debt to be voluntarily incurred? I'm again not sure it's even needed.
Edit: Time to go! Been fun. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 04:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
very good point, it's really the core problem of the isk faucet. material will disappear very fast while isk doesnt |
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Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 04:47:00 -
[121] - Quote
So thinking about what Tyberius Franklin is saying; the problem with the system is too much ISK remaining in the system. The system essentially relies on transaction tax/brokers fees to reduce the ISK, lets face it, most other sinks can be avoided or mitigated minus a few key ones.
The problem right now is that ISK is not being moved enough to allow taxes/broker fees to effectively decay ISK, it also poses a problem of those with a lot ISK are not moving ISK (hence why the have so much). So the wealthy continue to accumulate. Essentially the problem of too much ISK in the system is because it is accumulating and given the opportunity to decay.
Now what I am about to propose may be very disliked, even hated, and is probably a bad idea, I have had a few beers. But if ISK decayed without having to move, it would remedy the problem of too much ISK while maintaining the nature of CCP's original ISK extractors. The rate of decay would be determined by the amount of ISK entering the system, or remaining in the system, and could be adjusted by CCP to achieve a desired inflation rate.
The decay would be a proportionality of current wallet, meaning those accumulation points would decay the most, allowing ISK that normally would have been moving in the system, thus decaying, to properly decay.
This will remove alot of stockpiles that alliances have built up, reducing their advantage. Players who consistently have low wallets due to purchases of assets will benefit.
The downside is that having ISK will become a liability and may begin to damage the economy in the sense that manufacturers would prefer to hold on to their assets instead of trade them for ISK, however, the decay rate is likely to be slow enough to not be a significant impediment to trade. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
466
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 05:02:00 -
[122] - Quote
Something being missed here. Productivity.
If productivity can maintain growth with ISK then prices should remain rather stable. According to the chart of price inflation for Eve, over the very long term, it has been stable. It's had quite a few ups and downs compared to a real economy, but in the real economy a god rarely comes down and changes the composition of trees, rocks or cars and does it over night.
What we have to wonder is, is productivity actually keeping pace with the growth of the money supply? In an ideal situation it would be the case. According to the chart of price inflation, we had a relative deflationary slump while the monetary base was exploding. This makes little sense, unless something else is going on, something like over production by accident and artificial price controls.
If a mechanic in the game is producing too much of something, that price is going to go down. As more and more of that thing is produced, we would expect the decrease in price to sooner or later lead to a shortage, because no one wastes time producing it any longer. But this does not happen in Eve, in some sectors, for one simple reason - The activities that generate ISK, also generate a lot of the stuff that would other wise be considered production.
Why make guns when the price is going down, when I can go shoot rats and get ISK and guns? As I gain more and more ISK, and more and more guns, the gun prices drop, the value of my ISK goes up compared to the guns. What if these guns can be refined into some base components that are used in just about everything else in the game? ... poof, we land in mudflation. What helped Eve for a very long time was its ability to reprocess items, this allowed typical mudlfation behaviors to be diffused among many products.
The problem is not ISK faucets or sinks, the trouble is that too much stuff got produced by activities that also generate ISK. This pushed prices down further and further making ISK generating activities even more attractive. Now the rubber band of monetary inflation is pulling and creating some wild volatility in an uncertain marketplace.
Real productivity, and not production as a suplment to ISK generation, must take hold, and it is going to have to do it in an environment of a 1300% increase in the money supply. It'll be a bumpy ride, take a deep breath and enjoy it, magic can not fix this, only common sense. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
808
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 05:46:00 -
[123] - Quote
So... more fees.
- Add a "trade hub" tax fee of about 0.5% on top of the existing sales tax in the trade-hub system. Make it 0.25% in the surrounding systems. Apply it to the top 10 systems in Empire space based on monthly transaction volume.
- Raise the cost to change broker orders, maybe charge 0.01% of the outstanding order value to adjust it.
- Higher station slot fees for Manufacturing lines and research / copy / invention slots. If the lines are at least 50% busy each hour through the day, then the fee goes up 1% per day. If the lines are less then 50% busy each day, decrease the fee by 0.5% per day. No upper-end limits either, let the market balance it. This would also make POS arrays/labs in hi-sec more cost-competitive.
A slot fee of 333 ISK/hr, would grow to 598 ISK/hr on day 60, then 1977 ISK/hr on day 180 and about 12.6k ISK/hr by day 365. At which point, manufacturers would either move their production to other stations or out to POS arrays.
- Make rat bounties more dynamic based on how many people are farming in the same system. If lots of rats are being killed, decrease the payouts by up to 15%, if very few rats are being killed, increase payouts by up to 15%.
- Higher station office rentals. Remove the cap on fees and let it grow unbounded. Players will decide that 100-200M per month for a station slot is too expensive and they will spread out.
- Higher repair fees, decreased based on your standings with the corp that owns the station.
(Personally, I'm in favor of letting slot fees float. In the busier systems you could see slot fees approaching 60k/hr.) |
equcin meey
camdy and Co. inc.
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 07:28:00 -
[124] - Quote
Misanth wrote:equcin meey wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote: Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.
Fixing this would involve either reducing high-sec income, or boost null/low income. We don't want to contribute to massive inflation so the logical choice is to nerf high-sec income
Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death.
see Misanth this is how you do a construction reply with an answer instead of a bitter old vet that seem to hate all that the current game has now but is still happy to play hmm oh and waving a bit of paper to say your did something. i don't believe i should earn more isk than low sec,WH space an 0.0 but i also don't believe i should earn near zero and neither is high sec near zero risk. You and Chokichi Ozuwara seems very angry, and lacking a sense of humour, I even put in that extreme 'bittervet' and 'economic major' there to make it painfully obvious, yet you both just took the pain and ignored the obvious..
funny nobody else got it that you were trying to be a standup comic just a tip you might need a writer who knows comedy support the Lego Rifter-á
http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/11619 |
Userkare
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 08:02:00 -
[125] - Quote
Whats with all the people in this thread claiming moons/mining/loot drops/lp are isk faucets. |
Strategos
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 08:04:00 -
[126] - Quote
Although I do agree with the amount of isk flowing into EVE needs to be curbed, I don't like how everyone in 0.0 tells everyone else to move out of highsec and into 0.0. 0.0 is full. You're either paying billions and billions in rent, living in the worst of the worst NPC space, or still making decent buck in highsec. It's not to hard to see which most people will pick.
Want more people to move out into 0.0? Open it up more. Make it cost much, MUCH more to hold sov after ~20 systems or so (100 systems is stupid), so the "blocks" claim size shrinks and allows more corps and alliances to form instead having to join one of the blocks. Decrease the mobility of super caps to even less then what they have now and/or drastically, and I mean -drastically- increase costs to jump, making it completely unworthwhile to even jump on top of 20 BS's or even 2-3 carriers, and especially not with a couple of supers.
Like I said, tons of people in 0.0 want highsec dwellers to move out into 0.0, but they don't stop to possibly address some of the reasons why a lot of people don't. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
467
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 08:10:00 -
[127] - Quote
Userkare wrote:Whats with all the people in this thread claiming moons/mining/loot drops/lp are isk faucets.
A few feel that if they can prove they are ISK faucets, they can justify over paid things like incursions, when what they should be arguing is disparity, however doing that opens them up to all sorts of things they don't like. |
Kamilia StarGazer
Sovereign Industrial Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 10:08:00 -
[128] - Quote
TLDR:must have npcs selling things that are useful add more isk sinks that cant be avoided replace isk income with lp in incursions(big isk sink if done right)
The issue here is as many have stated over and over not the material faucets but the isk faucets..
It is not easy to address but one thing that would help is returning some things back to npcs. they want this game to be controlled by players but the problem with this is we don't through isk away without a good reason such as was was POS fuel.
If they want to fix the issue as it is atleast as far as i see it would be to add costs to playing that are paid to npcs such as docking fees (this would affect everyone would also make station games in pvp costly.)
incursions should never have paid isk flat out these should have been another material or just flat out lp generator. by this i mean we have a multitude of things in the concord store that are usefull across all aspects of gameplay.
even 5m+5klp for security statues pardons to add some security status to characters as if you killed a frigate and having varied versions of these for higher prices.
these are just general ideas probably not good ones but none the less it is of this nature that could help
P.S. as for the incursion income swap to lp yea flame on about that i do incursions and i admit they should not pay isk stop whining about it you could make more profit on an lp store if things people really wanted where in it.... |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 16:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Something being missed here. Productivity.
If productivity can maintain growth with ISK then prices should remain rather stable. According to the chart of price inflation for Eve, over the very long term, it has been stable. It's had quite a few ups and downs compared to a real economy, but in the real economy a god rarely comes down and changes the composition of trees, rocks or cars and does it over night.
What we have to wonder is, is productivity actually keeping pace with the growth of the money supply? In an ideal situation it would be the case. According to the chart of price inflation, we had a relative deflationary slump while the monetary base was exploding. This makes little sense, unless something else is going on, something like over production by accident and artificial price controls.
If a mechanic in the game is producing too much of something, that price is going to go down. As more and more of that thing is produced, we would expect the decrease in price to sooner or later lead to a shortage, because no one wastes time producing it any longer. But this does not happen in Eve, in some sectors, for one simple reason - The activities that generate ISK, also generate a lot of the stuff that would other wise be considered production.
Why make guns when the price is going down, when I can go shoot rats and get ISK and guns? As I gain more and more ISK, and more and more guns, the gun prices drop, the value of my ISK goes up compared to the guns. What if these guns can be refined into some base components that are used in just about everything else in the game? ... poof, we land in mudflation. What helped Eve for a very long time was its ability to reprocess items, this allowed typical mudlfation behaviors to be diffused among many products.
The problem is not ISK faucets or sinks, the trouble is that too much stuff got produced by activities that also generate ISK. This pushed prices down further and further making ISK generating activities even more attractive. Now the rubber band of monetary inflation is pulling and creating some wild volatility in an uncertain marketplace.
Real productivity, and not production as a suplment to ISK generation, must take hold, and it is going to have to do it in an environment of a 1300% increase in the money supply. It'll be a bumpy ride, take a deep breath and enjoy it, magic can not fix this, only common sense. Simple solution would be that NPCs cease to drop gear. (ammo and tags would remain unchanged) A replacement for meta item drops would be a 1 run BPC of the item. (material input the same as for meta 0, but still 50% repro.) Production via gun is done away with, and real productivity can settle where it should. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
469
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 18:16:00 -
[130] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Simple solution would be that NPCs cease to drop gear. (ammo and tags would remain unchanged) A replacement for meta item drops would be a 1 run BPC of the item. (material input the same as for meta 0, but still 50% repro.) Production via gun is done away with, and real productivity can settle where it should.
Agree, a good first step has been (will be) made with drones reducing the materials. Longer term something like BPCs, or a "broken" version of a T1 Meta+ item being repaired, consuming minerals would be good too. Can even introduce a new skill, "mr fix it" skill, helps in the repair of broken modules of this class. All that could ever be refined from them being exactly what has to go into them to fix them, would negate the loot issue. There would still be some downward push on Meta 0 prices, but I suspect that is preferable to removal of meta 1-4. Further, the downward push would be overcome by the lesser supply of minerals overall.
Still plenty of ISK to be had for mission runners and ratters, being the only source of T1 meta items and opens up a new mini career. |
|
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 21:57:00 -
[131] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Simple solution would be that NPCs cease to drop gear. (ammo and tags would remain unchanged) A replacement for meta item drops would be a 1 run BPC of the item. (material input the same as for meta 0, but still 50% repro.) Production via gun is done away with, and real productivity can settle where it should. Agree, a good first step has been (will be) made with drones reducing the materials. Longer term something like BPCs, or a "broken" version of a T1 Meta+ item being repaired, consuming minerals would be good too. Can even introduce a new skill, "mr fix it" skill, helps in the repair of broken modules of this class. All that could ever be refined from them being exactly what has to go into them to fix them, would negate the loot issue. There would still be some downward push on Meta 0 prices, but I suspect that is preferable to removal of meta 1-4. Further, the downward push would be overcome by the lesser supply of minerals overall. Ideally all loot would be handled in the same way as salvage is currently: smashed up wreckage which requires some industrial activity (and mineral consumption) before it can be repurposed into new things.
The idea of my ship being pumped full of 425mm autocannon rounds before exploding but half of the modules sitting perfectly intact to be scooped and used again, including delicate and sensitive equipment, is pretty silly. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 00:39:00 -
[132] - Quote
Userkare wrote:Whats with all the people in this thread claiming moons/mining/loot drops/lp are isk faucets.
Dunno whom that is but they are non ISK faucets that can/will affect inflation. Drone poop for one being turned into a ISK faucet from a mineral(alloy) faucet will inevitably cause inflation. Moon goo's near monopoly gives a very few at the top a way to create inflation like with oil & OPEC. I personally would like to see both moon goo's & nano ribbons space monopolies broken a litte ( say sleeper incursion or a drone incursion that poops moon goo ) so we'd have other material faucets that would spread out incomes to all SEC systems & WH space. And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 02:41:00 -
[133] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:10% reduction is not that big of a deal but, it might be just enough to make people reconsider.
Sure, it's a completely selfish idea. But, no more selfish than people in hisec wanting income levels comparable to other more dangerous types of space.
10% is not enough tbh. just the other day i scanned down and cleared a whole C2 with 15 sites or so and came out with ~50-60mil/h in loot. i can make the same 50-60 mil/h running lvl4s any day. now granted, i did the C2 in a 70mil drake rather than a tengu but the reason was to keep the risk/reward at a comfortable level, so the comparison still holds. and while the payouts are roughly the same on paper, hisec missions still have the advantage of being easy and predictable, risk free and requiring no ramp-up time (scanning, switching ships etc). |
Demon Azrakel
Bite Me inc Exhale.
76
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 02:48:00 -
[134] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero. why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ??
risk vs. ******* reward |
Frying Doom
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 02:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Demon Azrakel wrote:equcin meey wrote:Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero. why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ?? risk vs. ******* reward If it was risk Vs reward shouldn't that mean lo-sec would pay the best as it's safer in null especially if you are in a large alliance. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1126
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 03:10:00 -
[136] - Quote
0.0 is stagnant. Essentially no risk. Low is a moderate risk. High is the highest risk of losing an expensive ship.
Stop living in wonderland people. Look at the actual facts. So by the OPs definition, the highest rewards should be paid out in high sec.
But, it's a sandbox. It's not up to CCP to fiddle with. It's up to us.
If the people in 0.0 would stop hoarding and start destroying, the whole dynamic would change. You can't have stability unless you consume what you have. It the American way and the EVE way. Lets get a decent war going, folks. It works for the U.S. and it will work for EVE.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 13:27:00 -
[137] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:0.0 is stagnant. Essentially no risk. Low is a moderate risk. High is the highest risk of losing an expensive ship.
this is bullshit on so many levels. firstly, noone forces you to fly a blinged out ship. secondly, unless you fly incursions and your logis screw up, there is no way of losing it unless YOU screw up badly. whereas in low and null you will lose ships regularly no matter what. |
Keen Fallsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 13:30:00 -
[138] - Quote
Haikato Saraki wrote:Just do it. Dont wait for it to become a problem, just do it now, or soon, or whenever, just don't save the option as some kind of "save the universe" button because by the time its that big of a problem it will be too late.
10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. You talked at fanfest about shifting more and more NPC services into the hands of players. I believe something along the lines of "your all grown up now, you can run jita" was said. Well that's great, Im excited for that! But the more NPC's you put out of a job the more isk-sinks you plug up.
So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it.
Dont mess with CCP Soundwave ! It can hurts! you was warned |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 19:40:00 -
[139] - Quote
If the current rumors are correct 15 trillion ISK left the game last week from the coffers of a large NULL sec Alliance. This is more then 3/4 the ISK of a month of Incusions payouts&sleeper NPC buy orders combined. Perma bans, GM ISK siezures & un sub accounts are a heat sink which numbers are rarely documented. Only number I've heard ballied about was from Dr E saying that 10,000 plex have been conficated from botters accounts. And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Sekhmet Neteret
INESTO-Tigris Holdings Foundation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 00:09:00 -
[140] - Quote
Misanth wrote:equcin meey wrote:Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero. why should my income be near zero when i choose to play in high sec like other's choose to play in low sec, WH space and 0.0 ?? Pick one: * Why should anyone live anywhere risky if there's no reward for taking said risks * Why should people contribute to the isk in-currency if they don't contribute in spending it * Think about all us bittervets who had no missions or incursions, and started with ~50k sp/could barely even kill rats in highsec, we need to hate on people getting free isk, obviously, as back then we were all forced to go to low- or null to make *any* kind of income * I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you?
You started with only 50k sp and you consider yourself a bittervet? |
|
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 00:59:00 -
[141] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:0.0 is stagnant. Essentially no risk. Low is a moderate risk. High is the highest risk of losing an expensive ship. Stop living in wonderland people. Look at the actual facts. So by the OPs definition, the highest rewards should be paid out in high sec. But, it's a sandbox. It's not up to CCP to fiddle with. It's up to us. If the people in 0.0 would stop hoarding and start destroying, the whole dynamic would change. You can't have stability unless you consume what you have. It the American way and the EVE way. Lets get a decent war going, folks. It works for the U.S. and it will work for EVE. Mr Epeen have you ever even jumped into lowsec?? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
971
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 01:22:00 -
[142] - Quote
Misanth wrote:5 year old rabble
Living proof that intelligence and education are not always compatible. |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 01:38:00 -
[143] - Quote
Haikato Saraki wrote:Just do it. Dont wait for it to become a problem, just do it now, or soon, or whenever, just don't save the option as some kind of "save the universe" button because by the time its that big of a problem it will be too late.
10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. You talked at fanfest about shifting more and more NPC services into the hands of players. I believe something along the lines of "your all grown up now, you can run jita" was said. Well that's great, Im excited for that! But the more NPC's you put out of a job the more isk-sinks you plug up.
So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it.
This seems simple on the surface, but according to Soundwave the total package is going to cause major disruptions.
"Cash out you RP now" because data cores are going to be Faction Warfare items... Big mistake. Making Lowsec too profitable for highsec players to ignore by shifting needed resources to low... not a good idea. Rebalancing Tech moons to an active mining profession - I like this, but it will cause the markets to grumble for a while.
There will be a typhoon of tears for taking away data cores from research agents. I cannot imaging the hate for taking away the access to data cores and hyper inflation on T2 items hits. Players bitching about lost skill points from researching industry and not combat just to make T2 items (including research) to have it all thrown in their face and told fight for it...
Along with the 10% bounty cut was the suggestion that NPC are softer now than they were 5 years ago from skill creep. I understand what Soundwave is saying, but I do not want CCP to balance the game around 100M SP players. Sure players breez through anoms in a Nyx, but so what? If the rats become a challenge for the Nyx to solo anoms, then will we all need a Nyx to do anoms? Not well thought out IMHO. If the barrier to playing the game creeps with the average player SP level, then I hate it for those who start playing EVE tomorrow.
Yeah, 10% bounty cut can be tolerated, but the other balances will cause too many problems.
This "balancing" package offeren was not thought through in regards to the lower skilled players, nor those who dedicate their play time in industry... Another push to force everyone into PVP in Lowsec space at any cost.
. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 02:41:00 -
[144] - Quote
the more i think about it the more i like the idea of creating miniature "household" ISK sinks. why are the NPCs slaving for us for free? are they ******** or just very rich and altruistic? how about we add small fees to everything an empire dweller does? docking, undocking, jumping, storing stuff in stations etc. could all cost small amounts of isk that scale with volume. for example, undcking in a frigate could cost 100 isk, 1k in a cruiser and 10k in a battleship. same for jumps. you could even introduce some 'private security' npc corp that will help you in hisec faster than concord does, but only for a monthly fee imho this would increase immersion as you would be constantly reminded of your status as citizen, while at the same time fighting inflation. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
442
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 02:47:00 -
[145] - Quote
Just make it easier to gank mission runners. rembourcer ou vous ne pourez plus miner en paix !!-ánous n'aimons pas les pirate !!-áno rembource mi declare war for you |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
121
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 02:56:00 -
[146] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:the more i think about it the more i like the idea of creating miniature "household" ISK sinks. why are the NPCs slaving for us for free? are they ******** or just very rich and altruistic? how about we add small fees to everything an empire dweller does? (snip) imho this would increase immersion as you would be constantly reminded of your status as citizen, while at the same time fighting inflation.
lol you plan to nickle & dime Empire dwellers... very well for the 73% of Eve that lives there but what about nickle & diming NULL seccers too? How about toll bridges at every Warp Gate you have to pay to use it?
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Gideon Tyler
EVE University Ivy League
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 03:41:00 -
[147] - Quote
I do not think we have an ISK problem. I see no reason to curb bounties or anything else for that matter.
Further, if we are going to reduce ISK, and I am not suggesting we do, it should be uniformly done and not disproportionately in terms of hitting hi-sec bounties as opposed to low sec/ null sec bounties, as some are suggesting.
As for those, that said that people needed more reasons to go to Low Sec/Null Sec, I would disagree. I think there are plenty of reasons to do both already.
Further, the way to attract people to Low/Null Sec space is not at all about ISK, it is about building a quality player experience and that includes Low and Null Sec Corps/Alliances that people want to be part of. If you build something worth being part of, the people will be there, regardless where you are located and the converse if equally true.
Last of all, CCP reducing ISK payouts in a game where you can be as rich as you want to pay for by buying PLEX seems very self-serving. We already have a game in which we can buy our way into wealth, why make that gap any wider except to make CCP more money at player expense? If we ever reach a point where we have to buy PLEX to be competitive, I call foul on CCP. PLEX buying should always be an option, not an in-game necessity.
Further, PI is less profitable than ever as the recent 1000% tax increase with the last expansion took a steady if unimpressive income source and hamstrung it somewhat. I do not think we need any more of that. Just my two cents.
|
Noa Fuyu
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 05:51:00 -
[148] - Quote
I just wonder how is it going to change anything for the good? I understand the issue but then looking at it I see those big 0.0 allainces who already hold space just getting richer and richer if 0.0 is buffed even more. And where are carebears gonna go then? I really dont see them moving to low sec because none of them want to fight. And then its difficult enough to get into a new corp or move out into areas where more isk is being made.
Does anyone think this will force people to leave over it? Depending on how big and what kind of nerf there is? These are the people that do sell off named modules into the market etc. Will hi sec maybe become the primary domain of miners? |
Hroya
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 06:18:00 -
[149] - Quote
Because "everyone" just wants more and more. No one wants to lose and goes to lenght to ensure they win. Flash their fat wallets, brag about their skills, slap the monkey silly over a list of killmails they own. etc etc.
CSM 6 asked what it would take to get people to move to null sec. Obvious sollution was the introduction of Incursions and their meager income .. ..
High sec people are there to be farmed, get it ? They (we) pay for all the shiny stuff and goo that comes out of null etc. We slurp the high end minerals like an addict punctering his arm with a needle.
We offer the best killmails for lolz to gankers and the sort. We shed the most tears.
I honestly dont see what is wrong with high sec really. We provide a market to sell your stuff, create good laughs over yet another crying loss to the ebil players. We are so selfcentered that no reall resistence will ever happen. And as pointed out numerous times, most arent even welcome outside of high sec because they dont "fit".
And with a hord of alts from the outside residing in highsec doing their mains industrial side of the game or provide the isk through incursions, i am sure any change to high sec wont be as severe as most pitchforkers pretend to support.
You go your corridor but. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
474
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 07:38:00 -
[150] - Quote
Gideon Tyler wrote: As for those, that said that people needed more reasons to go to Low Sec/Null Sec, I would disagree. I think there are plenty of reasons to do both already.
Further, the way to attract people to Low/Null Sec space is not at all about ISK, it is about building a quality player experience and that includes Low and Null Sec Corps/Alliances that people want to be part of. If you build something worth being part of, the people will be there, regardless where you are located and the converse is equally true.
There's also another factor.
Hi sec is the one place where somebody with just 1 hour tops a day playtime can do something. Flip a couple orders, build a couple modules, maybe mine while doing the above (using the remote trade / science skills). Maybe toss in a L4 or a DED 4/10 anom.
This kind of player profile is extremely common and rising in numbers and they can't join any kind of social organization so they form those 1 man corps. Being extremely common = bring a lot of subscriptions to EvE. Imagine how is it to be the top alliance in game with thousands pilots yet still a small minority compared to how freaking many are "casual players", those providing CCP the big bucks without using their CPU, those providing the lol killmails, the wardec ransoms, the 200M in a badger suicide gank, the 50M in an Hulk suicide gank.
Now, you can make the though internet guy face to this mass of subscribers (EvE is not F2P) and tell them to join some 0.0 corp. To do what? To sit in a station-less system doing nothing because in their hour a day they can't join some pro corp so they are left to themselves with no markets, no small industry to do in that hour, possibly camped by neuts and still have to pay 2B a month in rent?
Before talking with your pro-butt hole, people should broaden their eyesight and see the variety of situations that put together form EvE. There's more than your pro-8 hours a day online team, and that team is already reaping the rewards of being able to leverage on group play to achieve what casuals will never be able to. I have been on both the shoes for a lot of time, and having to become "casual" is a pathetic experience compared to the fun and rich experience achieved in a good corp, expecially in EvE.
Look at how incursions are popular. They are the closest thing to a social experience with relatively little time commitment we have got. Same for WHs, they are total win and guess who they cater to? To those who are "borderline casual" and cannot / don't want to commit to those fat 0.0 alliances. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
90
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 14:43:00 -
[151] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote:You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
That one we know is being fixed. This is according to Soundwave who commented on it with a tone that was not very complimentary to moon farmers. He called them personal atms. Log in, ching ching ching. He said changes are coming to moon minerals, and their plan when they change mining mechanics is that the new mining will allow players to be able to find moon minerals as well. Hopefully roaming miner gangs have a reason then to go on mining scan ops for the elusive tech. |
Gideon Tyler
EVE University Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 16:18:00 -
[152] - Quote
I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.
I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.
*bump |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
90
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 16:52:00 -
[153] - Quote
Gideon Tyler wrote:I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.
I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.
*bump
Bump from me as well. I am putting together some income trees (provided I don't bungle it up or get lazy) to break down mechanics of earnings. Will comment and compare issues where farming and botting are issues and need changes. Will also highlight parts that reducing income will have negative affects on solo players. I have always played single character while living through low and into null. Since I have never used an alt, I have a unique perspective compared to many other older players in places that earning is too high, too low or too easy. As such, able to be AFK earned. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 16:52:00 -
[154] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Pick one: * Why should anyone live anywhere risky if there's no reward for taking said risks Because there are different styles of gameplay. And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
Misanth wrote:* Why should people contribute to the isk in-currency if they don't contribute in spending it Prove *they* don't spend it... You can't.
Misanth wrote:* Think about all us bittervets who had no missions or incursions, and started with ~50k sp/could barely even kill rats in highsec, we need to hate on people getting free isk, obviously, as back then we were all forced to go to low- or null to make *any* kind of income Games changed over time... In 2003/4 there was dam near nothing but mining and pvp. And 16000 accounts...
Misanth wrote:* I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you? I'm Harry Truman.
You read it here on the internets, so it has to be true...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 16:55:00 -
[155] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
ask the hisec incursion runners about that |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:08:00 -
[156] - Quote
Conclusion: Nerf Incursions. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
91
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
Raven Ether wrote:Conclusion: Nerf Incursions.
Correction, fix incursions. This is the most promising and busted game mechanic of everything. The bounties would be fine if the mechanics matched it so like I often reiterate, don't nerf fix the following:
1. Randomize spawns: This gets rid of the I win fits and formats. Also cause risk of shinies being popped. Just like when incursions came out
2. Have site respawn timer adjust with system control. If system gets to 100% empire reclaimed, the respawn rate should be too slow to make easy sites worth it. This promotes the more challenging larger fleet sites.
3. Make getting full control require hitting the big sites. Need to get 65% from vanguards, 20% from assaults, and 15% from HQ to get mom to appear. |
Zircon Dasher
109
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:21:00 -
[158] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it... ask the hisec incursion runners about that
Ask the null sec incursion runners about that. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:21:00 -
[159] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it... ask the hisec incursion runners about that
Ha ask the null sec Incursion runners who farm deep in SOV how much more ISKies they make when an incursion pops up there. NULL still makes better ISKies per hour its just more sporadic which is the nature of NULL (& W-space too for that matter) And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:23:00 -
[160] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Raven Ether wrote:Conclusion: Nerf Incursions. Correction, fix incursions. .
Correction fix the higher level missions to incorperate Incursion/sleeper AI's which make them so much more difficult to bot Want to bet bounty botting creates more inflation then any other activity? And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:24:00 -
[161] - Quote
Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !
You ma'am are an idiot.
I don't know any nice way to say it.
But there it is.
0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game.
Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:25:00 -
[162] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion??
1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu.
1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec? |
EmmaFromMarketing
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:27:00 -
[163] - Quote
equcin meey wrote:so your have a bit of paper to say your an economics major well congratz on going to uni for 4 years or so.
so lets look at your response i asked one question and you couldn't give me an answer but you asked me afew questions then throw your bit of paper about to say "that i know it all" almost like if your trying to scare me into submission and that your a bitter old vet which has not answered my question.at least the OP can write a their view point with a clear and to the point answer.
now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless
The reason I read the forums is because of posts like this by illiterates. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:29:00 -
[164] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! You ma'am are an idiot. I don't know any nice way to say it. But there it is. 0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game. Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****.
Well according to CCP Soundwave at the lastFanfest MoonGoo farming is just like a gigantic ATM machine which Alliance leaders can just walk up to slip thier card in & cha CHING riches just flow out. FACE IT THEY ARE A MATERIALS FAUCET THAT SPEWS OUT GREATER WEALTH THEN BOTH INCURSIONS & SLEEPERS SITES COMBINED 0.0 Moon mining spews out greater wealth into the hands of a few then any other mechanic in Eve And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:32:00 -
[165] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion?? 1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu. 1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec?
Been told that super CAPs can run anoms making 300M+ isk/hour... dunno if that was beofre the nerf or is still going on now TBH And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
150
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:33:00 -
[166] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nex Onerios wrote: If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons ! You ma'am are an idiot. I don't know any nice way to say it. But there it is. 0.0 moon mining brings *0* "isk" into the game. They produce a product which is bought and sold, but generate NO new isk into the game. Learn wth your speaking about first before you spout stupid ****. Well according to CCP Soundwave at the lastFanfest MoonGoo farming is just like a gigantic ATM machine which Alliance leaders can just walk up to slip thier card in & cha CHING riches just flow out. FACE IT THEY ARE A MATERIALS FAUCET THAT SPEWS OUT GREATER WEALTH THEN BOTH INCURSIONS & SLEEPERS SITES COMBINED 0.0 Moon mining spews out greater wealth into the hands of a few then any other mechanic in Eve
Does it matter? It's already been said that they are working on fixing it all. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:34:00 -
[167] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote: And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
do ADHC run incursion?? 1hr running sanctum net you 60~80m in a tengu. 1hr running incursino in hiesc net 120m, some bears claim it's only 80m, so where is it that nullsec can make more than hisec? Been told that super CAPs can run anoms making 300M+ isk/hour... dunno if that was beofre the nerf or is still going on now TBH any proof to back this up??? |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
92
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:40:00 -
[168] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
Correction fix the higher level missions to incorperate Incursion/sleeper AI's which make them so much more difficult to bot Want to bet bounty botting creates more inflation then any other activity?
That too! Combined with the hurt to promoting low/nullsec industry with the module reprocessing from loot added to the mix. For missions, they need a couple types.
First, they need the solo mission still. Some people like to solo, cannot just take that away. Instead of all the high bounty isk for missions, need fewer npcs, but more challenging. Solo missions should be engaging and challenging. Promote different fits. Myself, just to make it challenging, I always used speed, high involvement fights and high power. Risky to fly because it can mean death in a mission. Lost a nightmare to prove it :p. Makes mission running so fun though. Speed ravens and pulse rep maelstroms/rokhs were my favorites. Players can fight through tougher cruisers and frigates using the new ai with maybe only a couple challenging battleships in it.
Time reward should be a continual decrease and the majority of earning. The balancing out should result in a solo player able to earn about 20mil/hr highsec of at keyboard involvement. Using alts would earn a bit more isk, but not a whole lot in the mission unless you run the small fleet missions. At mission select, allow agent to offer different fleet sizes up to a certain point or a selection of missions.
More challenging missions that require actual fleet attention. With spawn switching, won't be able to just call agro with a domi, throw on remote rep and go afk to set up another mission. Overall, applying this format to all forms of pve sites will be advantageous. It will allow exploration sites to stay challenging to access in low and null, but promote more of the recon and covert ships like what I use. That is the biggest challenge for the exploration sites. To make them riskier, they just put in more high bounty npcs, making them a grind. They would be better suited to high speed sort of challenge combat with guards and the like. there are complexes to get tough combat loot. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
92
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote: any proof to back this up???
edit: did you here this from your incursion friends who never leave hisec??
Don't know about supercapitals, but if I flew a nyx that would be 2.5x the damage I could make in an anomaly with my regular carrier. I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills. 300m from a supercarrier? Running a bot, I can see it being possible. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
485
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:52:00 -
[170] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:[quote=DarthNefarius]
Time reward should be a continual decrease and the majority of earning. The balancing out should result in a solo player able to earn about 20mil/hr highsec of at keyboard involvement. Using alts would earn a bit more isk, but not a whole lot in the mission unless you run the small fleet missions. At mission select, allow agent to offer different fleet sizes up to a certain point or a selection of missions.
You think like people don't adapt. Make missions net 20M/h and they'll just switch to Jita trading or something. But that'd be a fair equalizer as you'd finally see as empty space in hi sec as you see in 0.0.
Also, you can't just take away.
This is not RL, where suckers HAVE to pay taxes, HAVE to spend a miserable life, HAVE to perform duties, HAVE to work, HAVE to be a meaningless cog in an huge, soul-crushing mechanism in the hands of few.
This is a subscriptions based game, you won't move people to somewhere else if they hate it (aka forcing everybody to become a 0.0 puppet), past a certain thresold they will just find something else more rewarding to do than hitting red crosses or staring at a rough features space Excel. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 17:54:00 -
[171] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:any proof to back this up???
here's the quote from adifferent thread:
Jenn aSide wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:First thing to do is be patient.
The drone region changes, the new crimewatch, the new wardec system all will contribute to the price inflation picture. The more mineral prices go up, the more people are inclined to do something other than shoot rats. Less people shooting rats means less ISK entering the system. We need to see where it shakes out instead of going into panic mode and hitting every button on the dash board in the hopes that turning on the radio will apply the brakes.
I do agree that reducing bounties is part of the solution, tighten the faucets globally, versus making the sinks larger or more of them randomly across the game just to say there are more sinks. Sinks are a "cost" to someone, people tend to avoid costs. Creating new sinks for mission runners/incursions/WH Blue-Loot would likely take the form of some new module or "stuff". This just trades one form of inflation for another, and in the end will contribute to the deflation side of the picture. So, reduction of bounties across the board will work better. Net income of ISK generation via rat destruction will decrease relative to other activities.
We also have to see more what is ahead in Dust, Dust may turn into a giant ISK vacuum for all we know. Well said. I Think CCP should go slow, and for another reason as well. The Titan nerf. After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf. Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 18:45:00 -
[172] - Quote
When I read threads like this, it makes me wonder how subdivided the working environment at CCP must be like. For numerous examples for this statement, there is Team Avatar working together on Walking In Stations tinkering along with various ideas while casually talking in threads. But then there was the incident with CCP Greyscale single-handedly deciding to go into the database to delete various items without any overview beforehand. Team Security seems to work together with their latest work noted and a few members of that team making a comment here and there. But then this thread states that an interview posted elsewhere has CCP Soundwave single-handedly going to change bounties, data cores, and whatever else to drive everyone to destroy each other it seems. So how do some people at CCP get carte blanche to do whatever they want without question?
Just something to ponder casually. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 19:08:00 -
[173] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You think like people don't adapt. Make missions net 20M/h and they'll just switch to Jita trading or something. But that'd be a fair equalizer as you'd finally see as empty space in hi sec as you see in 0.0.
Also, you can't just take away.
This is not RL, where suckers HAVE to pay taxes, HAVE to spend a miserable life, HAVE to perform duties, HAVE to work, HAVE to be a meaningless cog in an huge, soul-crushing mechanism in the hands of few.
This is a subscriptions based game, you won't move people to somewhere else if they hate it (aka forcing everybody to become a 0.0 puppet), past a certain thresold they will just find something else more rewarding to do than hitting red crosses or staring at a rough features space Excel.
20M/h I don't think is that bad. Also that is for average player. If they put up bigger money ships, such as faction fit khronos with excellent T2 gunnery skills. But the mission challenge does mean that there is a risk if you lose it. In terms of money, the ones who like running missions will still have fun doing it. Still is salvage and chance for the decent meta modules. 20m will cover any T1 bs easily.
I think like people that don't adapt when I am calling for a new and complex combat system that forces people to actively play and adapt? My favorite thing in eve is to try and figure out and do things outside the norm. It is when you don't have to adapt that I get bored.
Edit, misinterperated what you said. Sorry. Yeah people will adapt, that is the point. Ideally to different mechanics that are more fun to be a part of. To say it isnt like work is a falsity. Unless you are running multiple afk accounts, to make any serious isk is either farming (dull and work) or enjoyable and low earning. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 19:42:00 -
[174] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Farang Lo wrote:any proof to back this up???
here's the quote from adifferent thread: Jenn aSide wrote:Well said.
I Think CCP should go slow, and for another reason as well. The Titan nerf.
After the last anom change, Titan pilots learn to from the Forsaken Hub anomalies. I've see Tit pilots make 300 mil an hour doing that (one Ragnarok pilot I know was doing even better, 125 mil ticks. geez). They probably won't be able to do that after the nerf.
Bounties are individual income, unlike moon goo ect ect. Nerfing bounties might be needed, but as a null sec player I'd just like to remind CCP of what happened to null sec the last time they nerf player income with that 1st anom nerf...
so a few titans can make 300m/hr make null for profitable than incursion???
Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem?? |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:01:00 -
[175] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make. see the problem??
Oh, I know the problem! During a war where you are on standby for cta's etc, the only way to make isk is to farm. Again, I don't run alts but run support more. Isk is a tough grind for me, but better than highsec for other forms except incursions.
When it comes to them, I tend to be the most outspoken about fix them. I say fix the mechanics though. Nom some 10bil isk fleets who think that combat is all about not shooting a specific ship cause it will cause spawn and the bits about having fits because you know exactly how a site's combat will go. More risk for incursions!
People will always want pve. Live events showed how much people enjoy fleet pve. There is no reason why highsec cannot have a good isk source. I am not against that, but if there is a good isk source, it needs to be high risk. If you want fast isk during an incursion, you better risk and often lose ships if you mess up. Steady and safe fleets make low isk. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:09:00 -
[176] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Markus Reese wrote: I could make 30-40m an hour in an anomaly in null using a battleship without that great of large gun skills
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make. see the problem?? I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Farang Lo wrote:
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem??
I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms.
Remember, that is 10,11, 12 people making 80 million isk each. People working together in anomalies still will only make 50mil each tops if running battleships in anomalies. |
Zircon Dasher
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
Just to add some numbers to the discussion:
Incursion Payout divided by participants by security type (single day data for Feb. 1)
Highsec: 171,948,377 Lowsec: 141,711,651 Null: 162,743,409
For the sake of argument let us assume that everyone ran VG's only and distribution of rewards were homogenous:
Each Highsec participant ran 16.38 sites. Each Lowsec participant ran 9.45 sites. Each Nullsec participant ran 10.85 sites.
If each site took 5min to run:
Highsec incursion runners made 126m/hr Low and Null incursion runners both made 180m/hr |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 20:32:00 -
[179] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Farang Lo wrote:
vs 70~80m/hr most of incursion bears claim to make.
see the problem??
I don't see a particular issue with this. 10(or 11, or 12) people in faction/deadspace fit faction/T3 ships working together beat a solo person running anoms. Remember, that is 10,11, 12 people making 80 million isk each. People working together in anomalies still will only make 50mil each tops if running battleships in anomalies. That is more of an issue of scaling that works in incursions but doesn't really play out elsewhere. Admittedly this is somewhat problematic.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
312
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 21:58:00 -
[180] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward..
Where do you get the idea that low sec has less risk than null sec or wormholes?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 22:36:00 -
[181] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:so a few titans can make 300m/hr make null for profitable than incursion??? Welp, I guess highsec could use some titans to help fight the Sansha motherships.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 22:50:00 -
[182] - Quote
There is multiple steps which are going to be taken most increasing Sinks for optional services. if that does not work the most drastic step will be cutting the faucit
I think a big variable will be Dust. As this will be filled with isk sinks initially and will depend on that variable what really needs to happen I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 23:49:00 -
[183] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward.. Where do you get the idea that low sec has less risk than null sec or wormholes?
He pulled it out of his arse llike the rest of his whiney arguement And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 23:54:00 -
[184] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Just to add some numbers to the discussion:
Incursion Payout divided by participants by security type (single day data for Feb. 1)
Highsec: 171,948,377 Lowsec: 141,711,651 Null: 162,743,409
For the sake of argument let us assume that everyone ran VG's only and distribution of rewards were homogenous:
Each Highsec participant ran 16.38 sites. Each Lowsec participant ran 9.45 sites. Each Nullsec participant ran 10.85 sites.
If each site took 5min to run:
Highsec incursion runners made 126m/hr Low and Null incursion runners both made 180m/hr
These are about the numbers I figured soo the ISK/hour is much better in NULL ( where they are most often in the depths of SOV & almost completely safe thank to cyno jammers ) lo sec deserves a greater ISK buff because theyare not as safe as HI or safer NULL SOV IMHO And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á |
Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
293
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 23:55:00 -
[185] - Quote
Wait, so incursions **** up the market and we're going to nerf nullsec ratting?
Makes perfect sense. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |
Zircon Dasher
113
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 23:59:00 -
[186] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Wait, so incursions **** up the market and we're going to nerf nullsec ratting?
Makes perfect sense.
Actually it does.
CCP has been steadily marching to the "group activity >>>>>>>>> solo activity" drum.
Since incursions are group activity any increase in economic input must be offset by a decrease somewhere else... ie ratting/missions/anoms |
GondriA
BLUE EAGLES Pinked
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 00:17:00 -
[187] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:i am a mission runner and i think bounties are too damn high. with 10-15mil bounty ticks (plus the other rewards) there is little to no incentive to do anything else than lvl4s if your goal is making easy money. not sure about the other carebears, but personally, i wouldn't even mind if incursions and lvl4 combat missions were completely banned from hisec.
alt detected |
Gideon Tyler
EVE University Ivy League
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:36:00 -
[188] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Markus Reese wrote:[quote=DarthNefarius]
Time reward should be a continual decrease and the majority of earning. The balancing out should result in a solo player able to earn about 20mil/hr highsec of at keyboard involvement. Using alts would earn a bit more isk, but not a whole lot in the mission unless you run the small fleet missions. At mission select, allow agent to offer different fleet sizes up to a certain point or a selection of missions.
You think like people don't adapt. Make missions net 20M/h and they'll just switch to Jita trading or something. But that'd be a fair equalizer as you'd finally see as empty space in hi sec as you see in 0.0. Also, you can't just take away. This is not RL, where suckers HAVE to pay taxes, HAVE to spend a miserable life, HAVE to perform duties, HAVE to work, HAVE to be a meaningless cog in an huge, soul-crushing mechanism in the hands of few. This is a subscriptions based game, you won't move people to somewhere else if they hate it (aka forcing everybody to become a 0.0 puppet), past a certain thresold they will just find something else more rewarding to do than hitting red crosses or staring at a rough features space Excel.
I could not agree more, let us not confuse ISK making with Null Sec Corps wanting more people in their Corps. If Null Sec politics did not all too often look like two school girls pulling each others hair, we might find more people there. As I said before, if you build Corps with a broader appeal more people will come.
As for ISK, I think good game design is where risk corresponds with reward, but at the same time we need to allow for different play-styles and therefore Hi-Sec, Lo-Sec, and Null Sec should each have sufficient rewards to allow players to interact in-game with whatever space they choose and be competitive from their chosen space.
I think it very important that people in Null Space abandon the popular presupposition that they are the only players that matter. Null space is not and never will be for every player, and the game and game rewards need to support that. That is just good design and good business on the part of CCP.
|
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:41:00 -
[189] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward.. Where do you get the idea that low sec has less risk than null sec or wormholes?
I'm sure wh is way more risky than lowsec
|
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:44:00 -
[190] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Aiwha wrote:Wait, so incursions **** up the market and we're going to nerf nullsec ratting?
Makes perfect sense. Actually it does. CCP has been steadily marching to the "group activity >>>>>>>>> solo activity" drum. Since incursions are group activity any increase in economic input must be offset by a decrease somewhere else... ie ratting/missions/anoms so if 10 dudes ratting sanctum in null, they should have more income than hisec incursion?? |
|
Zircon Dasher
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:45:00 -
[191] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote: I'm sure wh is way more risky than lowsec
Its really not. As non-blue population decreases so does probability of being popped. |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Farang Lo wrote: I'm sure wh is way more risky than lowsec
Its really not. As non-blue population decreases so does probability of being popped. have you ever been to wh, seriously???
I bet you think wh has local and intel channel |
Zircon Dasher
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:49:00 -
[193] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Aiwha wrote:Wait, so incursions **** up the market and we're going to nerf nullsec ratting?
Makes perfect sense. Actually it does. CCP has been steadily marching to the "group activity >>>>>>>>> solo activity" drum. Since incursions are group activity any increase in economic input must be offset by a decrease somewhere else... ie ratting/missions/anoms so if 10 dudes ratting sanctum in null, they should have more income than hisec incursion?? though I seriously dont see it works that way in null at all
It doesnt work that way because old infrastructure is old.
I would be A-OK with changing all anoms/plexes/missions to a scaled (population wise) payout system in which each site could be contested. If that happened it iwould actually let CCP make upward revisions to payouts in general. |
Zircon Dasher
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:51:00 -
[194] - Quote
Farang Lo wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Farang Lo wrote: I'm sure wh is way more risky than lowsec
Its really not. As non-blue population decreases so does probability of being popped. have you ever been to wh, seriously??? I bet you think wh has local and intel channel
Farmed one like a boss for quite some time thanks. Its not like there are no tools to let you know when someone entered or left your system |
Farang Lo
State War Academy Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 03:56:00 -
[195] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Farang Lo wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Farang Lo wrote: I'm sure wh is way more risky than lowsec
Its really not. As non-blue population decreases so does probability of being popped. have you ever been to wh, seriously??? I bet you think wh has local and intel channel Farmed one like a boss for quite some time thanks. Its not like there are no tools to let you know when someone entered or left your system is it ?????
how ill-informed you are!!!!!!!!!!
and btw, station hugging is real dangerous |
Victor Twenty
Odyssey Space Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 04:19:00 -
[196] - Quote
Gideon Tyler wrote: I could not agree more, let us not confuse ISK making with Null Sec Corps wanting more people in their Corps. If Null Sec politics did not all too often look like two school girls pulling each others hair, we might find more people there. As I said before, if you build Corps with a broader appeal more people will come.
As for ISK, I think good game design is where risk corresponds with reward, but at the same time we need to allow for different play-styles and therefore Hi-Sec, Lo-Sec, and Null Sec should each have sufficient rewards to allow players to interact in-game with whatever space they choose and be competitive from their chosen space.
I think it very important that people in Null Space abandon the popular presupposition that they are the only players that matter. Null space is not and never will be for every player, and the game and game rewards need to support that. That is just good design and good business on the part of CCP.
I also agree, it has nothing to do with the wealth in 0.0 or Lowsec. Some of us have better things to do with our time then be slaves to someone elses empire.
The simple facts have been, larger alliances purchase their isk, legally using Plexes or RMT. Therefore they dont have a need for highsec carebears and do not want to support them unless they are apart of a pet alliance playing a monthly bill. What CCP needs to do is encourage more players to want to work together and do big things, the only thing these players lack is funds to challange big alliances holding all the wealth.
Hopefully the 15 trillion isk RMT withdraw by CCP will help balance the isk equation!
Vic20 |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 05:00:00 -
[197] - Quote
Victor Twenty wrote:Gideon Tyler wrote: I could not agree more, let us not confuse ISK making with Null Sec Corps wanting more people in their Corps. If Null Sec politics did not all too often look like two school girls pulling each others hair, we might find more people there.
I also agree, it has nothing to do with the wealth in 0.0 or Lowsec. Some of us have better things to do with our time then be slaves to someone elses empire. The simple facts have been, larger alliances purchase their isk, legally using Plexes or RMT. Vic20
Yep the general consensus Is that alliances are politely looking away while bots play so they get more Isk to say... hey Hi SEC go away.
Trouble repeatedly told why Hi SEC peeps don't go to NULL sec is that its filled with too many Null sec arse hats An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's-á crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'-á |
ReptilesBlade
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 06:40:00 -
[198] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
ALL rewards, not just rat bounties, so LP, incursions, bounties, everything.
If the payout went down more than 15-20% I would consider quitting Eve. If CCP did this I would be definitely quitting Eve and never coming back.
Incursions and the new friends I have made running them are the only things keeping me playing this game right now. |
Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
294
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 12:55:00 -
[199] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Aiwha wrote:Wait, so incursions **** up the market and we're going to nerf nullsec ratting?
Makes perfect sense. Actually it does. CCP has been steadily marching to the "group activity >>>>>>>>> solo activity" drum. Since incursions are group activity any increase in economic input must be offset by a decrease somewhere else... ie ratting/missions/anoms
That-
Well. That makes some sense.
****.
Am I on the wrong side here? Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 16:07:00 -
[200] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Rico Minali wrote:Hisec - low risk - low income, it isnt hard to understand.
Yes the isk faucet (more like a gushing torrent really) should be slowed, knocking 10% off all npcs is a start however, how about this, since risk should equal reward.
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount. Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount. Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.
I know its gonna make teh isk kings of hisec cross, but thats how I see it shoudl be - low risk, low reward.. Where do you get the idea that low sec has less risk than null sec or wormholes?
The only really big issue comes down to access. And hopefully changes to security staindings. Harder to get supplies into nullsec. Lowsec, if you aren't too negative can still stage highsec plus no bubbles or bombs. With sec hits and changings hopefully to that, less chance of a podding maybe. Null can run higher expenditures with necessity for pods, more expensive and difficult to get gear, etc. |
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Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
282
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 16:42:00 -
[201] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero.
Misanth, normally your posting is very intuitive and entertaining, but I have highlighted where you went badly, badly wrong with this one - are you suggesting that it's wrong that the manufacturers of EVE make untold billions station trading in Jita? Really? |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:44:00 -
[202] - Quote
[Misanth wrote:Yes, it needs to be done. But it should be done while balancing the income differences at the same time. It'd ridicilous zero/low-risk highsec dwellers can even make something remotely close in income as the low-, wh- and nullsec dwellers can. Highsec should just a widespread starter-, trader- and transport zone. Income possibilities in highsec should be close to zero.
I am confirming IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULAS That anyone else makes more ISKies then me WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! MOMMY CCP NERF THE OTHER PEEPS NOT FAIR NOT FAIR!!! HI SEC SHOULD MAKE 0 ISK AND THEY SHOULD ALL BECOME SLAVES UNDER MY THUMB WAAAAAAHHHHHH Sniveling NULLBEAR crybabies are the only thing that's worse then sniveling HI SECbears An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's-á crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'-á |
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