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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
P'taqh
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 00:44:00 -
[91] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Wait, so once this goes through those of us using OpenGL will no longer be able to play eve? Or just be locked out of the high end graphics? OpenGL supports tesselation, and PhysX is available for Mac OS X and Linux. The real questions are: For tesselation, when will Cider update their DX -> OpenGL translation layer (or have they already)? And what will people running AMD cards on any platform get in place of PhysX? EDIT: I should clarify, tesselation is an old and necessary step pioneered by SGI (inventors of what became OpenGL) in order to turn everything into triangles for easy processing. I'm not sure if what they're calling "tesselation" here is precisely what OpenGL calls tesselation.
I think what CCP is talking about here is Hardware Tessellation which is (as far as I understand) a technique to generate geometry on the GPU by means of a special shader program. OpenGL does support this starting from version 4.0 IIRC. |
hellwarz
Rising Thunder
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 00:52:00 -
[92] - Quote
+1 for me |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
69
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Posted - 2012.03.28 01:38:00 -
[93] - Quote
the other effects in that keynote, the ships shields blocking incoming lasers, titans breaking in half and having better looking fire, better looking damage etc etc, is that possible without Tess?
1:58:30 1:52:00 http://youtu.be/j9Ozvef7CvQ On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
Ogogov
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
I would be disappointed if a physics implementation was limited to only one GPU manufacturer, although CCP has failed to address this point.
As for the other stuff, yes please. Shield impacts and damage skins are something I've been waiting for since 2008. |
Mirei Jun
Right to Rule IMPERIAL LEGI0N
33
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:45:00 -
[95] - Quote
If you have a clear (or even slightly opaque) idea of new types of game play and content allowed by this feature then by all means do it. If it just looks pretty then the argument is weaker.
With that said, Eve looks great because of continued refreshing of the graphics. Seeing this as another step towards keeping Eve modern, or even on the cutting edge of graphics is a strong argument in favor. |
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 04:13:00 -
[96] - Quote
Ogogov wrote:I would be disappointed if a physics implementation was limited to only one GPU manufacturer, although CCP has failed to address this point.
As for the other stuff, yes please. Shield impacts and damage skins are something I've been waiting for since 2008. I most certainly doubt there will be a hard restriction to one manufacturer's hardware. Most likely you'll get it emulated on CPU for more cpu usage or somewhat less physics detail, or both. Like all of the modern PhysX-enabled games still run without any trouble on other hardware as well.
And current EVE's physics work fine with ATI cards.
Eiter way, even if i were forced to use physx, i'd rather buy a cheapo graphics card and run it as a dedicated physics processor than swith to the manufacturer entirely, but that's just my opinion :)
Also it'd be really cool to get my hands o the demo =] |
K Kerryngktonn
General Mechanics Ltd.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 04:42:00 -
[97] - Quote
As far as I understand the tesselation in this scope is different from that is supported in OpenGL - the latter just provides a method to breakdown the geometry from polygons (mainly concave) into normal triangles that are always convex. The tesselation here is more like the one in 3dsmax where the model is just made smoother by subdividing the mech parts into more and more triangles.
Given this I don't see any apparent increase in the value of assets - apart from some curvy ships where these curves will be smoother, better interpolated. Rectangular designs (most caldari ships) won't win much, I suppose.
This really seems like applying a pretty filter on a photo via Photoshop, assets-wise. And so much pain to implement it? I don't see the reason why everyone is so agitated about this. "Oh, subdivided and smoothed geometry, we want it!". It's like upscaling a raster image - you won't gain new detailed geometry, but just a rough emulation of it.
Apart from that, I run EVE on Debian through Wine and won't really be able to take advantage of the tech in the middle-to-long-term run. But that's another story and is really my own problem. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
493
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:31:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Solomon wrote:Boris Lachenkov wrote:Any chance of getting this released as a stand alone tech demo that we can all have a look at? Would be interesting to see how my PC copes with such sexyness.
Please? :3 It has been discussed for sure but there is no solid commitment at this stage.
why not, Just upload it to the eve downloads page :/ |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
493
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:43:00 -
[99] - Quote
Quote:Quote:Adding this support to the engine is the lion's share of the work and is better handled by few specialists, rather than throwing all of the graphics programmers we have at it to get it done quicker.
Secondly, once the engine can support DirectX 11 features, then the EVE space art teams are able to start utilising the features of DirectX 11 during new feature developmen
...
....
So it's a win win? and takes nothing from the art team to do?
Then do it, what the heck is holding you back?
I think that's what he was asking, and you didn't answer it. What would those 3 guys be doing instead, if not this. so we can pick which we think it more useful. |
Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
18
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
DX 11 is a no brainer and even if you do not jump start it right away and finish till start of the 2013, you should definitively commit some resources to start the slow burn right now and then pick up the pase when it's needed.
But you should look at the textures. Even at full graphics you don't want to put your camera close to anything because it becomes an ugly mess. On my HD 24" monitor it becomes even more ugly because of the size of it And I don't think the tessellation by itself can fix this, the Revenant in the demo still looks blurry up-close (all capital ships suffer from the bad textures. They are the size of the mountains, but it feels that the model has the same size textures and polygons like battleship or a battlecruser). |
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Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
645
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
K Kerryngktonn wrote:As far as I understand the tesselation in this scope is different from that is supported in OpenGL - the latter just provides a method to breakdown the geometry from polygons (mainly concave) into normal triangles that are always convex. The tesselation here is more like the one in 3dsmax where the model is just made smoother by subdividing the mech parts into more and more triangles.
Given this I don't see any apparent increase in the value of assets - apart from some curvy ships where these curves will be smoother, better interpolated. Rectangular designs (most caldari ships) won't win much, I suppose.
This really seems like applying a pretty filter on a photo via Photoshop, assets-wise. And so much pain to implement it? I don't see the reason why everyone is so agitated about this. "Oh, subdivided and smoothed geometry, we want it!". It's like upscaling a raster image - you won't gain new detailed geometry, but just a rough emulation of it.
Apart from that, I run EVE on Debian through Wine and won't really be able to take advantage of the tech in the middle-to-long-term run. But that's another story and is really my own problem.
It looks like the key is the new geometry that tessellation generates from the displacement map - check this pic.
The whole article is here, hope it means more to you than me. I have a GTX 580 and the tessellation demo certainly does the opposite of making something smoother.
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Vohlos
Mobile Defloration Service
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:30:00 -
[102] - Quote
"Do it!"
No more words needed here ;) |
DarkXale
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:47:00 -
[103] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:the other effects in that keynote, the ships shields blocking incoming lasers, titans breaking in half and having better looking fire, better looking damage etc etc, is that possible without Tess? Those have absolutely nothing to do with Tesselation. Titans are just a model/animation upgrade, and shield 'just' involves adding certain standard effects. Both doable in the current client. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
559
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:10:00 -
[104] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Just curious: is it safe to assume that this is a DirectX feature and not limited to nVidia cards?
Edit: also, looks very promising, I'm looking forward to watching my nicely redone Ishkur in even more detail!
This is important, many of the people have high end computers but with ati hardware. I personally just buy what at the moment of purchase is the best bang for my buck this time that was ati.
I do hope that basicly everything torifranse and others showed us will come to eve, bounding asteroids, shattering, high details, shields lighting up, damaged ships, fire eating up your insides, plates falling off, picture in picture.
Make it so, but make it so that everybody can enjoy it or if they can't run it, switch it off. But the tech demo shown was run on a not to high end gpu, "the most used in eve today", with what kind of margin though, was not explained.
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Princess Hotbox
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
2
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
I vote no until you can't think of anything else whatsoever that requires those production resources. There is still too much gameplay to be improved or implemented before worrying about shinier ships; they're already very attractive.
Some things that come first off the top of my head: Starbases. Ship Redesigning. FW Conquest. Sov and infrastructure. New ships and variants (textures and models). Effects.
The list is unending. But, I would be ok if those sexy damage effects were produced instead.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
324
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
Princess Hotbox wrote:I vote no until you can't think of anything else whatsoever that requires those production resources. There is still too much gameplay to be improved or implemented before worrying about shinier ships; they're already very attractive. Some things that come first off the top of my head: Starbases. Ship Redesigning. FW Conquest. Sov and infrastructure. New ships and variants (textures and models). Effects. The list is unending. But, I would be ok if those sexy damage effects were produced instead.
Not all programmers are the same.
The graphics update sounds like deep code infrastructure stuff The stuff you're listing isn't. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Bent Barrel
45
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
Tom Bodett wrote:DirectX 11 support would be great.
What about supporting Multithreaded rendering which is part of DirectX 11?
the python client is single threaded anyway, so no gain .... |
Bent Barrel
45
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:43:00 -
[108] - Quote
hmm ... I am more for an OpenGL layer than adopting DX11 ... but that's because it would remove quite a lot of problems for me (linux/wine here).
anyway this is not yet something that would translate into a gain for EVE (CCP, players etc.). Almost nobody plays totaly zoomed in to see all the bumps on the ship armor. if graphics candy is the goal then proper model allignment is more needed (fitted 75mm rails on the atron yesterday, looked horible !!!, same blasters on ishkur).
hitzone detection and proper reaction (explosions on the surface and not in the middle of the ship, shield deflection effects etc), better debris and wreck generation (ship explodes into parts and not into a generic wreck) and similar come to mind. |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2008
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Posted - 2012.03.28 11:39:00 -
[109] - Quote
The video from the demo is up and can be see here!
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
29
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Posted - 2012.03.28 12:33:00 -
[110] - Quote
Hellz yes i want you to pursue DX11 features in Eve Online! go go go team super awesome graphics! |
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Tesh Sevateem
Sadistic Consortium Orbital Technology Syndicate
10
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:40:00 -
[111] - Quote
I definitely would love to see any and all graphical updates to the EVE Universe in an ever flowing stream of updates.
If we didn't have the Trinity update, I wouldn't be playing right now. I know it's a bit extreme, but graphics matter, just like you don't want your girlfriend to get fat. Or, she's actually not getting fat, it's just all the other girls that get slim.
I'd better stop babbling. |
Hamster Too
Golden Fowl Silent Requiem
27
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
Well, as long as this nVidia assisted effort does not melt my ATI card I would love to see more detailed in-game models. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
25
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:40:00 -
[113] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:hmm ... I am more for an OpenGL layer than adopting DX11 ... but that's because it would remove quite a lot of problems for me (linux/wine here).
Not going to happen.
CCP has a DirectX culture, and it is a rare studio that can transition from one to the other given how religious of an issue DirextX vs OpenGL can be. People generally do not like training from one to the other since they are such different beats and toolchain.. not to mention because of the push over the years there is such a glut of DirectX programmers on the market it doesn't make much business sense to go with a tech that has fewer hires available. All the diploma mill game schools churn out DirectX developers at this point, with OpenGL ones coming from a different type of program.
Plus, schools have forgotten how to teach OOP in C, which hurts OpenGL since people look at the C code and go 'oh noes, not C! C is not OOP and that is the one twue way now! The design patterns look wrongz!' |
K Kerryngktonn
General Mechanics Ltd.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 15:17:00 -
[114] - Quote
My bad, didn't get deeper into this "other", new tesselation term and mixed it with the older and dumber one from like ten years ago or something. So I take my words back on it. I saw a small cave-in in geometry in the CCP screenshots but attributed it to, well, the rawness of the tesselation itself :)
Then it is surely a nice feature leveraging the usefulness of existing resources. Thought about parallax mapping, but they state in another topic that this won't do much to ships and require an additional mapping. So looks like this is it, we're in for tesselation in future. |
xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
155
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:43:00 -
[115] - Quote
You MUST make this happen.
Don't wait for losers with PCs from 2003.
WIN WIN WIN. The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run. |
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
129
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:30:00 -
[116] - Quote
Undoubtedly it looks amazing but how would it handle outside a tech demo and in a high-lag situation such as the average null sec battle? |
mine mi
FW Scuad E C L I P S E
5
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Posted - 2012.03.28 18:52:00 -
[117] - Quote
Vohlos wrote:"Do it!"
No more words needed here ;)
yes one more when? |
Bent Barrel
46
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:48:00 -
[118] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:Bent Barrel wrote:hmm ... I am more for an OpenGL layer than adopting DX11 ... but that's because it would remove quite a lot of problems for me (linux/wine here). Not going to happen. CCP has a DirectX culture, and it is a rare studio that can transition from one to the other given how religious of an issue DirextX vs OpenGL can be. People generally do not like training from one to the other since they are such different beats and toolchain.. not to mention because of the push over the years there is such a glut of DirectX programmers on the market it doesn't make much business sense to go with a tech that has fewer hires available. All the diploma mill game schools churn out DirectX developers at this point, with OpenGL ones coming from a different type of program. Plus, schools have forgotten how to teach OOP in C, which hurts OpenGL since people look at the C code and go 'oh noes, not C! C is not OOP and that is the one twue way now! The design patterns look wrongz!'
I do not expect it to happen, but one can dream :-) |
Quade Warren
Urban Mining Corp Rising Phoenix Alliance
8
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:55:00 -
[119] - Quote
I noticed during the tech demo that the asteroid collisions were determined by the shape of the ship, not an invisible bubble. Does tessellation allow for better collision detection and if this was implemented, would players be able to rely on the shape of their ship to determine collisions in the future?
Getting stuck on an acceleration gate when I can visually see there is no obstruction is annoying, but understandable. An improvement on this scale would be, quite frankly, beyond awesome at this point. |
Andrea Griffin
203
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Posted - 2012.03.28 20:12:00 -
[120] - Quote
Quade Warren wrote:Getting stuck on an acceleration gate when I can visually see there is no obstruction is annoying, but understandable. An improvement on this scale would be, quite frankly, beyond awesome at this point. I'm going to guess no; collision detection with real objects that matter (gates, other ships, etc) are all done server-side, where the physics engine takes care of how things move around. We can't have the client being responsible for this sort of work, because then you'll have people flying through gates and stations and whatnot. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
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