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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 70 post(s) |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:47:00 -
[181] - Quote
Akelorian wrote:because you fly a missile titan, knowing full well how horrible they are, you are trying to push for the rest of the titans to do the same. Please can you make your next graphs into pie charts?
By horrible, you mean "not able to blap". |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
695
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:48:00 -
[182] - Quote
Akelorian wrote:because you fly a missile titan, knowing full well how horrible they are, you are trying to push for the rest of the titans to do the same. Please can you make your next graphs into pie charts?
Horrible in this case means "unable to blap subcapitals".
I apologize, but Titans shouldn't be able to do that, ever. |
Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:49:00 -
[183] - Quote
Akelorian wrote:because you fly a missile titan, knowing full well how horrible they are, you are trying to push for the rest of the titans to do the same. Please can you make your next graphs into pie charts?
I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by grayscale |
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas Moon Warriors
4
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:50:00 -
[184] - Quote
Dear CCP Greyscale:
Stop doing micro-management. Stop trying to small easy changes trying to fix Titans. Titans are like this way for years, and some more months will not kill eve.
Instead, do the right thing. Leave Titans the way they are by now and do a big change. As many before me already said, make Titans a big logistic / support / reship / (insert here your fleet support idea) ship. Titans should be that way long time ago, and now with your new project to design ship status by role, it is the right time to do it.
Do you not have the man-hours to do it right now? It is ok, just do it at the winter expansion and warning the player base about the new change. Of course that you will have an OMG ragequit reaction at fist, but be a man and do it for the nest of the eve universe. Be a brave man! Do it!
After all, that is the way CCP act when you really want it, like as weeks ago when you decide to delete a lot of collection items and are just ignoring the plead of the players (sarcasm and disappointment included at this paragraph). |
Dungar's Sister
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:54:00 -
[185] - Quote
Castelo Selva wrote:Dear CCP Greyscale:
Stop doing micro-management. Stop trying to small easy changes trying to fix Titans. Titans are like this way for years, and some more months will not kill eve.
Instead, do the right thing. Leave Titans the way they are by now and do a big change. As many before me already said, make Titans a big logistic / support / reship / (insert here your fleet support idea) ship. Titans should be that way long time ago, and now with your new project to design ship status by role, it is the right time to do it.
Do you not have the man-hours to do it right now? It is ok, just do it at the winter expansion and warning the player base about the new change. Of course that you will have an OMG ragequit reaction at fist, but be a man and do it for the nest of the eve universe. Be a brave man! Do it! Or they could fix them for the "Galaxy in flames" expansion so that wars aren't decided by who has the most titans. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
261
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:54:00 -
[186] - Quote
Akelorian wrote: because you fly a missile titan, knowing full well how horrible they are, you are trying to push for the rest of the titans to do the same. Please can you make your next graphs into pie charts?
If it makes you feel better: I fly an Erebus, have blapped stealth bombers with it ( https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/527997 ), and am calling for their nerf. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
214
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:55:00 -
[187] - Quote
Kaj'Schak wrote:There is also the question, if you field 50 Ships worth 70b each, you should be somehow able to vaporize an enemy fleet, that has only the value of one or two of these ships "i should be able to buy victory" |
Kozmic
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2012.03.27 18:57:00 -
[188] - Quote
Ivana Twinkle wrote: I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale
BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff? |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
695
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 18:59:00 -
[189] - Quote
Kozmic wrote:Ivana Twinkle wrote: I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale
BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff?
I feel pretty bad, especially when he insulted me by using a 4chan meme to describe me proving him incorrect.
Edit: 4chan/reddit, same thing. |
Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:05:00 -
[190] - Quote
EnderCapitalG wrote:Kozmic wrote:Ivana Twinkle wrote: I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale
BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff? I feel pretty bad, especially when he insulted me by using a 4chan meme to describe me proving him incorrect. Edit: 4chan/reddit, same thing.
You're a goon, you had it comming since all of us are drunk mittanis at fanfest anyway :V: |
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Caneb
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:06:00 -
[191] - Quote
NimBetu Cayal wrote: Capitals is the only means a smaller entity has to deal whit a much larger Blobb. The war in the north has showen us that a 200 man fleet can defend agains a 400 man fleet.
I'm pretty sure bombers, ahacs and various other ships/doctrines have shown that properly used they can take on much larger fleets and come out ahead, without resorting to titans.
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Sentinel Eeex
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:14:00 -
[192] - Quote
Kaj'Schak wrote:There is also the question, if you field 50 Ships worth 70b each, you should be somehow able to vaporize an enemy fleet, that has only the value of one or two of these ships
Battles which are effected by these masses of titans are between entities, which both can afford to lose dozens of these.
You really thought this through, didn't you? |
Sentinel Eeex
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:19:00 -
[193] - Quote
Akelorian wrote: If thats what you feel is needed to do, please go on, and while I am at it, I love the tears generated from this thread, they fuel my titans turret tracking.
Quoting this so that I can revisit it in few weeks/months.
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Citamarret
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:46:00 -
[194] - Quote
I'll go ahead and say what we're all thinking: the best way to deal with this problem is to create a new class of ships even larger than Titans (Super-Titans???) that will be responsible for Titan-blapping.
Thoughts?/ |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
235
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Posted - 2012.03.27 20:00:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP, come on, just remove the stupid ewar immunity and let the players fix the problem, via gratuitous use of Tracking Disruptor II, and a side helping of Remote Sensor Damper and ECM. Get rid of this stupid "special case".
You're always going on about wanting to make more ships useful in fleet, well, here's how even T1 frigates and cruisers can be useful on a supercapital battlefield. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
500
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 20:33:00 -
[196] - Quote
"We don't want to special-case Titan guns"
"Titans are immune to electronic warfare and regular warp disruptors and scramblers"
Greyscale, you have a problem that requires a solution. A very good solution was presented to you, and you seem to be turning down because it might require some effort in figuring out a bit of math. Titans are already special cases. So what if you have to fix their gun mechanics by adding a component to their damage function? They can't get any more special-case than they already are. Eve Online: A Bad Game. |
de4deye
Mortis Angelus Northern Coalition.
80
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Posted - 2012.03.27 20:35:00 -
[197] - Quote
Bring back AOE DD! |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
699
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Posted - 2012.03.27 20:42:00 -
[198] - Quote
de4deye wrote:Bring back AOE DD!
That's the exact opposite of progress.
As much as I'd like to see 100 Titans drop and light them, No. |
Smoke Adian
11
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Posted - 2012.03.27 20:54:00 -
[199] - Quote
EnderCapitalG wrote:de4deye wrote:Bring back AOE DD! That's the exact opposite of progress. As much as I'd like to see 100 Titans drop and light them, No.
Not that it would ever happen, but old school DD weekends a few times a year would definitely be entertaining.
Also, Shadoo's suggestion involving titans being limited to a faster cycling DD rather than conventional weapons is the best idea so far. |
Bawsk
Celestial Mayhem PROJECT MAYH3M
0
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Posted - 2012.03.27 20:57:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:EnderCapitalG wrote:I updated my previous ~Graph~ post. Here's a graph with resists added in (our maelstrom fitting has its largets resist to Kinetic due to drakes, so I'm going with the Biggest Buffer option, which will default to kinetic): http://i.imgur.com/FOp7y.png Can you do me one with say double-web/triple-TP?
I understand that you were probably trying to prove a point by having him develop the graph...
But seriously, you gotta look at how silly that looked to people that didn't understand what you were trying to accomplish. Developer asks player to make him a graph using free available software about in issue he is about to implement changes to... |
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steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
50
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Posted - 2012.03.27 21:04:00 -
[201] - Quote
At the end of the day, I don't think it will ever be possible to find a good balance by changing the combat stats. Either they're good and people will use them too much because they're easy to move around, and the only way to prevent that is to make them weak enough to not be worth fielding.
The real problem is that capitals break the normal pattern when it comes to combat strength VS mobility. As you go up from frigs to destroyers to cruisers and so on, a fleet of the next size up and larger will consistently beat you (assuming similar tech/faction levels), but they pay for that in mobility, they take much longer to get where they're going and back, making it harder to bring that heavy force in time and giving the opponent more time to prepare for the ships being brought. Capitals just jump around and end up being consistent with the rest of the line when it comes to combat strength, but with a mobility that even far exceeds that of the frigates.
I think the only way to get a long term fix is to fit capitals in to that line and remove their jump drives (possibly allowing jump freighters to keep theirs since they don't have any combat capabilities), forcing them to take gates just like any other fleet. It would make moving around a lot harder, but is that really a problem? If it becomes harder to move around, it would be harder to assemble the big huge blobs, it encourages local markets and production and makes it harder to hold on to huge areas of space just for the purpose of having it.
Maybe you can come up with some better of of limiting their movement (that doesn't include a maximum amount of jumps/day or similar - that would mean it would be impossible to hold tackle on a supercap fleet while your own moves into position, thus reducing the risk you face when deploying them, the opposite of what this is supposed to do), but it is the mobility that is the real problem. |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
702
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:15:00 -
[202] - Quote
The best counter to "quickly moving around" is jump drive spool up time. Will also allow for the killing of the cyno frigates that most people use to hotdrop dozens of capitals/supers onto other fleets. A drive spool up of even 30 seconds would give the opposing fleet 30 seconds to neutralize the cyno and if it's killed during that time then the jump is halted. |
Vena Saris
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:24:00 -
[203] - Quote
To CCP Greyscale: You have large groups of titans in the game like NCdot for example: http://dumps.eve-leaks.co.uk/nc-dot.com/showthread4749.html?1268-Blap-fittings They have threads that are just for "blap fittings". Blap in the context of the game means to one-shot a subcap immediately.
I'll give you the quoted text:
Quote: Blap fittings
So after last night I feel that we need to address how a titan needs to be fit when we call for "blap". Rather than going through all 4 races and telling you all how to completly fit your titans I think the better choice is to just "ask" you to atleast fit the following mods:
Turrent titans: 2 x Sensor boosters 2 x Tracking computers 3 x Dmg mods
Leviathan: 2 x Sensor boosters 1 x Domi target painter
Answers to questions/things to know: -The reason for 2 sensor boosters is so we can actually lock dudes before they get up to transversal. Plus, we can all lock at the same time! -Have/use the damn drugs! (Strong Drop is your friend) -Have multiple types of ammo. 2 types of ammo does not cut it. For the slow folks this means you need close range (ex. antimatter), mid/close range (ex. thorium or lead), mid/long range (ex. iridium), long range (ex. iron). -Officer mods are HIGHLY encouraged. Primary of these are tracking comps and dmg mods. Please pony up the isk ladies and gents. -I understand that these fits are hard on cap but tbh you will typically be using mid range ammo.
-Suggestions for Levi fits are welcome but the domi target painter is awesome! -Fitting out a Rag is like finding a Unicorn so feel free to do what ever you have been doing but if one of you could post your fits in this thread so we can get a std fit across the board for Rags it would be greatly appreciated! They still need to be able to track and lock in the same times as the bus/vatar.
Feel free to chime in here with ideas and such but I don't really think these things are up for negotiation. Please make sure you all have these mods ASAP. If you have questions about the remaining mods to fit on your blap fit feel free to ask here. The time of non standard titan fits is long past.
Do you think this is a problem? |
Iniquita
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
41
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Posted - 2012.03.27 21:35:00 -
[204] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:By far the easiest and simplest to Titans blapping subcaps would be to remove or restrict supercap ewar immunity. Then the players can solve the problem of the tracking-Titan themselves, simply by using Tracking Disrupter I (or possibly a slightly better meta mod, lol). You could leave in an immunity to ECM I suppose though, after all, multiple TDs have a stacking effect. I'd get rid of the warp disruptor/scrambler immunity though, having penalty-free warp core stabilisers on combat ships is absurd. Quote:and in any case the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing. Well, this is one "special case" that should be deleted.
This. Removing EWAR immunity from titans and SC's seems the most elegant solution though the modules may need some reduced effectiveness versus these larger ships but it seems the most elegant solution. Perhaps even giving this niche to electronic attack ships or other specialized ewar platforms. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:36:00 -
[205] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
It seems like it'd be just as easy just to introduce a sigrad-based damage scaling on XL turrets, which takes you to approximately the same expected DPS in most situations but in a more consistent (ie, less burst-prone) manner, and with the advantage that we can use much simpler math (linear/quadratic scaling) so the average user has a better chance of being able to estimate the likely outcomes. In either case though, it seems like a lot of effort to go to just to force people to fit target painters to their supercarriers; furthermore, the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing so this sort of approach isn't really on the table right now.
If you guys don't want to go re-doing lots of Mathematics(TM) (which I wouldn't want to do either), slapping a "role bonus" on Titans that nerfs gun tracking would probably be pretty easy. I don't think there's a compelling reason to hellnerf XL tracking in general because one particular ship class over-performs due to its combination of massive tank and massive DPS output. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
Also I'd like to take this opportunity to bring up once again the fact that mid-combat refitting is as much the culprit here as any other factor (if not the biggest culprit). If Titan pilots were forced to choose BEFORE entering the field between using a "blap fit" and one with a tank it seems probable that you'd see a lot less 10m ehp Titan fits entering the field. |
Dregol
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:44:00 -
[207] - Quote
La Dasha wrote:pmchem wrote:Greyscale, Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours. Definitely this.
This tbqh. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
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Posted - 2012.03.27 21:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
EnderCapitalG wrote:The best counter to "quickly moving around" is jump drive spool up time. Will also allow for the killing of the cyno frigates that most people use to hotdrop dozens of capitals/supers onto other fleets. A drive spool up of even 30 seconds would give the opposing fleet 30 seconds to neutralize the cyno and if it's killed during that time then the jump is halted.
As someone who enjoyed being on both sides hotdrops all the way back in 2007 I'd hate to see them go away. The issue is in these days of cheap T2, rigs and too much ISK the aggressor isn't penalised enough. If jumping to a 0sec cyno killed all your cap and nerfed the recharge for a minute or two, scaling all the way to normal recharge if you waited with possibly a jump cap bonus for waiting more than a minute or two you could make people pay more for the ability to dictate range and time. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
23
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Posted - 2012.03.27 21:50:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
It seems like it'd be just as easy just to introduce a sigrad-based damage scaling on XL turrets, which takes you to approximately the same expected DPS in most situations but in a more consistent (ie, less burst-prone) manner, and with the advantage that we can use much simpler math (linear/quadratic scaling) so the average user has a better chance of being able to estimate the likely outcomes. In either case though, it seems like a lot of effort to go to just to force people to fit target painters to their supercarriers; furthermore, the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing so this sort of approach isn't really on the table right now.
dude, the problem is not sig radius.
The problem is that tracking gets better over range because of your formula. There is no penalty for a ship being further away and thus appearing smaller in reality.
So while I can always choose a smaller ship to counter sig, I cannot choose a smaller ship to counter tracking. There's only 2 ways to counter tracking, get closer, or get faster.
The issue is this. If I pull out my gun and try to hit a pumpkin from 2 feet away, I'm probably going to hit it because it's very large in my view. But if that same pumpkin is 100 yards away, it should appear a hell of a lot smaller. This does not happen in eve. The sig size always stays consistent. So there is no penalty for sig according to range, and tracking gets progressively better at range.
For a huge ship like a titan, this means that if you have 10+ on the field, their shear size is going to spread them and the enemy fleet out more... meaning more range and greater tracking. Sig matters a hell of a lot less in this case. And in addition, you can add webs to targets in addition to that range factor benefiting the titans and you get very high results.
The solution is to inflate weapon signiture over range for all ships. You should not decrease damage directly like falloff... that's a horrible solution. If you just inflate the signiture according to range for the weapons, this means that smaller targets get progressively harder to hit.
My solution in another thread a while back is to give every gun a base range for their signiture to apply at. So a 425 railgun might have a 50km signiture range where it's signiture is 400 like current. But for every % further from that 50km base, the signiture of the gun should increase.... IE at 100 km range, the sig of the gun is 800. This means it's harder for the gun to hit smaller ships as range increases. This would not hurt titan v capital, but would likely affect titan vs anything else and reduce the effects of that 60-100km zone of combat where webs can't reach, and titans still struggle to track.
In particular, it would hurt the close range high tracking titans because if their base sig range was low... (IE 15-20km for Giga Pulse as an example), at 60km range, they would have 3x the sig or 3000 sig compared to the BS they are trying to hit....
This makes sense because distant objects are supposed to be harder to hit. So please implement a mechanic that makes sense not just for titans, but for all ship class warfare. Because quite honestly, frigates should have a lot better survival rate vs bs according to their sig/speed advantage...and you just don't see it currently. I mean, smaller ships are already penalized enough for small defense and smaller offense and range. |
Jax Slizard
Celerna
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:51:00 -
[210] - Quote
While this may be similar to the previous suggestion of messing with sig radius of XL turrets, as long as we are special casing them, why not just literally add some kind of "explosion velocity" type term to them?
Like simply give every size ship a "targetable area" term, (frigates 1, dessies 2..... bc 5, bs 6, dreads/carrier 18, titans 20.) Give XL turrets and XL turrets only a "barrel size" value, like 18.
For any given turret hit, make the hit value multiplied by "targetable area"/ barrel size.
Thus, titan shots would do 1/18 of their damage on hitting a frigate, 6/18 (or 1/3) damage to battleships, full damage to dreads/carriers, and extra damage against other titans.
Adjust until you get values you like. RP it as the projectiles are simply too big to do full and proper damage to undersized targets.
This literally lets you tailor how much damage you want to do to each size ship with XL turrets, regardless of tracking, speed, angle, etc. If a titan could 1shot a BS, and you want it to take 4 shots, make the factor between them 1/4, or whatever. |
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