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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 70 post(s) |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
495
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:22:00 -
[241] - Quote
Christopher Crusman wrote:wall of text
It's amazing that you can post such a giant wall of text but then at the same time not understand anything about how or why tracking actually works in the current model.
At least you had the good sense to post it on an alt. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
280
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:25:00 -
[242] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Until th-¦ devs realize that their f-+rmula -ûs **** -¦nd that all turrets need to be balan-üed based on a gun signature to range comparisonGÇÜ combat in -¦ve will c-+nt-ûnue to be broken. It just m-¦kes 0 sense that the frigate that is 100km distan-üe away looks exactly the same size to my guns as he does at 1km range, while my tracking is literally 100x better at 100km range.
For what it's worth, I read your posts on the subject and agree that a change in the way signature is handled across varying ranges to target would be a good thing. But it'd also be a massive change; much much larger than what I had proposed (better handling of existing sigrad vs sigres in chancetohit). I don't think an overhaul like what you had proposed is likely to occur in either the April release or Inferno. If CCP wanted to totally overhaul the system, well, there are a LOT of possible changes to make projectile / laser warfare more realistic.
At least we agree that tracking-based fixes are hopeless and that the existing tracking formula is broken. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
474
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:43:00 -
[243] - Quote
pmchem wrote:I'm Down wrote:Until th-¦ devs realize that their f-+rmula -ûs **** -¦nd that all turrets need to be balan-üed based on a gun signature to range comparisonGÇÜ combat in -¦ve will c-+nt-ûnue to be broken. It just m-¦kes 0 sense that the frigate that is 100km distan-üe away looks exactly the same size to my guns as he does at 1km range, while my tracking is literally 100x better at 100km range.
For what it's worth, I read your posts on the subject and agree that a change in the way signature is handled across varying ranges to target would be a good thing. But it'd also be a massive change; much much larger than what I had proposed (better handling of existing sigrad vs sigres in chancetohit). I don't think an overhaul like what you had proposed is likely to occur in either the April release or Inferno. If CCP wanted to totally overhaul the system, well, there are a LOT of possible changes to make projectile / laser warfare more realistic. At least we agree that tracking-based fixes are hopeless and that the existing tracking formula is broken. I agree with the both of you.
I think both concepts need to be implemented. Neither are nerfs, they are mechanic adjustments which provide a role for titans and fixes to current balancing issues across multiple weapon platforms.
They actually add a mechanic to titans that make them effective, not neutered yet provide a way for future balancing to happen. I don't code so I don't know how much goes into adding Yaay's adjustments but if that math were added to calculations of wepon damage there are other things to consider like how much load is put on the server for running the math. I would imagine that all ships running the math that misses do can't be good on TQ's health. Not at least until there are some of the optimizations Veratas was talking about at FF.
However, the idea of removing the turrets and adding DD's sounds like a REALLY easy way to balance titans as a quick fix. It just seems to make sense.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
32
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Posted - 2012.03.28 04:10:00 -
[244] - Quote
From what I've read in the past, changing the formula has very little impact on the server performance as it's just 1 bulk calculation each time. Basically, the server just runs the formula, plugs in all the variables, and hits enter. So adding variables to the formula doesn't change the performance of the server as it's not adding calculations.
What it does add is more searches, which I believe was explained as far less load than actual calculations.... I'm no tech pro, so maybe someone can clarify that.
As for the formula itself, I think when you talk about the health of the game, it should be one of the top goals on the priority list ahead of changing ship roles. I really don't think it's going to affect balance nearly as much as people think.
An example is large Mega Pulse: The gun itself is only designed to be effective out to about 60km range. Sig is only 50% of the formula. The Mega Pulse tracking at 60km range is going to be massive. Nearly 2,400 m/s velocity. So short of intercepters at greater than a 45 degree angle of orbit or approach, almost no ship is going to break the tracking at that range.
If you say Mega Pulse have a Sig Range of effect at 30km, then at 60km, the guns would only have 800 sig. Remember, this is only half the formula. The ships it's hitting are still probably well within tracking.
So near it's max effect, it can still hit BS pretty easy, especially with 1 target painter. Vs a BC, it's going to lose some of it's damage because of sig, if the BC is moving properly. But the BC is still going to be well within tracking.
My very lazy expectation of sig ranges that make sense for large guns:
Close range:
Autocannon's: 15km range
Blasters: 20 km range
Pulse: 30km range
Long range:
Artilleries: 40 km range
Beams: 50km range
Rails: 75km range
Obviously you can manipulate these with possible skills, implants, T2 ammo, etc. Blasters get more sig range since autos get much more falloff range and no capacitor.
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I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
32
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Posted - 2012.03.28 04:11:00 -
[245] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:
However, the idea of removing the turrets and adding DD's sounds like a REALLY easy way to balance titans as a quick fix. It just seems to make sense.
Read above, I explained exactly why it's a horrible Idea once you consider it in depth.
Post # 227 |
Alex Radu
Enlightened Logistics
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:42:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:pmchem wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:pmchem wrote:Greyscale, Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours. I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further. In the current formula, if target transversal is zero and the target is within falloff range, then the exponent in chancetohit = 0.5^(exponent) will be zero and the chancetohit will be = 1. However, if you added a new term in the exponent (or as a prefactor), then you could have it so chancetohit is less than 1 if the turretsigres is much larger than the targetsigrad. For example, add a third term to the exponent where the value of the term is zero if targetsigrad > turretsigres, and a large number when targetsidrad is zero. This value would have to be added, not multiplied (as is done in the first term in the exponent). If you wanted to do this as a prefactor, you would have a smoothly decaying function where if targetsigrad > turretsigres the function = 1, but if targetsigrad = 0 then the prefactor = 0. This is often done in classical molecular dynamics for cutoff or switching functions. I could write up a couple example formulas for either case if you're interested, (but it may take me a bit, I have work too!). It seems like it'd be just as easy just to introduce a sigrad-based damage scaling on XL turrets, which takes you to approximately the same expected DPS in most situations but in a more consistent (ie, less burst-prone) manner, and with the advantage that we can use much simpler math (linear/quadratic scaling) so the average user has a better chance of being able to estimate the likely outcomes. In either case though, it seems like a lot of effort to go to just to force people to fit target painters to their supercarriers; furthermore, the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing so this sort of approach isn't really on the table right now.
I don't see why this has to be limited to just XL turrets, this should be implemented for all sizes to balance turrets with missiles! |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:22:00 -
[247] - Quote
CCP is terrible.
So Titans are the mega weapon and not designed according to the paper-stone-scissor principle. |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:49:00 -
[248] - Quote
Venerietta Tar wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Stuff. I think it's about time you played your game a little more. If you seriously think Capital-class missiles do any damage of value, you're doing it wrong and you should re-evaluate the way you play.
/this |
Tish Magev
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.28 06:58:00 -
[249] - Quote
Lol look at all these goons and test linked. I wonder did a jabber ping or mail go out from mittens pointing to this thread and demanding his minions to down away. |
Cyaron wars
D00M. Northern Coalition.
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:15:00 -
[250] - Quote
This is goonswarm forum CTA.
Grayscale, hold on tight, they are going to blob this thread now. |
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Sendo Jarix
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:26:00 -
[251] - Quote
Don't **** up this thread with your rubbish, it's the closest we have gotten to the Devs actually acknowledging what the real problem is.
What I'm Down has listed would be one of the single greatest improvements to the game in a long time. CCP made numerous references at fanfest about restructuring ships and modules to shake up the games stale fittings/fleet compositions, however this change would do a far greater job at this than any of the gimmick modules suggested. At the same time fixing the crux of the issue with not only Titans but several other ships and weapon systems. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
498
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:37:00 -
[252] - Quote
/agreed. This is a really good discussion. I'm reading but, while very interesting and relevant, it's out of my league. No BS plz they are making good progress. Thx.
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Mar Drakar
LDK Test Alliance Please Ignore
36
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Posted - 2012.03.28 07:50:00 -
[253] - Quote
introduce bump damage with damage as a function of mass, blobing, titan blobing, cap blobing, subcap blobin, all solved with one good instapop.
Also damage would need to exceed some sort of threshold so that normal accidental bump in highsec would not make every soul in jita cry... |
asdf ghyj
Zorg Solutions
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:04:00 -
[254] - Quote
BEST TEARS GOONS TEARS
MITANI take ur goons and go PREPELIX ONLINE ( google and see is nice game for ppl like u )
HAve Fun
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Acwron
Meet The Fockers Vera Cruz Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:18:00 -
[255] - Quote
I love you Greyscale ! Justice has been made !
I suddenly don't despise mittani that much...still make sure you perma ban him and all his accounts. He can always make a new subscription and have a brand new start !
Regarding the titans : If you wanna do something against titan blobs, just make them very expensive. The capital parts needed for titans to be ridiculously high therefore you'll need to think twice or more if you get them into the field.
Love you CCP, I will keep my 12 accounts ^^ Death to all subcaps ! HAHAHA ! |
Tore Vest
289
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:23:00 -
[256] - Quote
Pro tip.. Stay away from titans with your maelstrom And you will be fine A real highsec carebear. |
Acwron
Meet The Fockers Vera Cruz Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:37:00 -
[257] - Quote
Could you please increse the tracking speed about 4-5 times? I still have problems shooting Dramiels.
Thanks in advance, |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
20
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:51:00 -
[258] - Quote
Apologies in advance for my noob carebear view, but removing turrets slots entirely and having launcher slots instead sounds like the only sane "quick fix". Who knows, leads maybe to a stealth boost for auto-targeting cruise missiles?
But it-¦s not enough, Titans should be epic. The Doomsday boosting others mentioned sounds good. It should be the only "turret" a Titan uses. Though the truly epic way of a Titan defending herself from the (*coughGOON)riff-raff is using her own riff-raff.
Bring back the Clone Vat Bay! (No T2 version? Wonder why.) But make the clones generated in there cost nothing. Every Titan with her own (somewhat endless) stream of Assault Frigs/Destroyer wings. Sounds epic to me.
Quote from your own WIKI as a quick reminder:
Quote:Titans are closer to mobile battlestations than actual ships. Indeed, someone unaware they were in a Titan might assume they are walking through a low-sec Naval station, as a Titan must provide similar facilities for its crew. |
bl4ckL0tus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.03.28 08:52:00 -
[259] - Quote
i hear drake nerf incoming also ... if hurri and maels will get nerfed like ... lets say 50 % tracking and only 3 targets would be awesome. |
Acwron
Meet The Fockers Vera Cruz Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:03:00 -
[260] - Quote
bl4ckL0tus wrote:i hear drake nerf incoming also ... if hurri and maels will get nerfed like ... lets say 50 % tracking and only 3 targets would be awesome.
Ahahaha +1 !!!
"WUUT ?? WTF ZOMFG F*** THAT !!!" Did I quote mittani good enough? I heard repeatedly these things at the meeting.
Now I want fighters, fighter bombers and all kind of drones on mah titan. I wanna spill teh enemies' blood !
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:14:00 -
[261] - Quote
Shadoo wrote:In the meanwhile absent a proper re-evaluation of the Titan combat role and refocus to something cool & unique -- if you really wanted a purish anti-capital role for the titan without the slightest chance of being in any sort of anti-support role -- have you considered removing the ability to fit turrets/launchers altogether and instead buffing the Doomsday Device cycle/dmg to match the overall DPS vs. capitals while making the DD module able to activate in low-sec (since really -- why would it today still be limited to null sec?)
He may be Norwegian, but only pure wisdom comes from his mouth!
Excellent proposal.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:17:00 -
[262] - Quote
Also even more important, can CCP hire someone competent as a Game designer instead of devs who are not playing the game, and doesnt have a clue how the game works.
TIA |
Acwron
Meet The Fockers Vera Cruz Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:19:00 -
[263] - Quote
Sendo Jarix wrote:Don't **** up this thread with your rubbish, it's the closest we have gotten to the Devs actually acknowledging what the real problem is.
Do I hear a goon asking not to F*** UP a THREAD ??? Is the world coming to an end or what ??? Goon tears, best tears ! |
Killerhound
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
4
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:19:00 -
[264] - Quote
Quote:Bring back the Clone Vat Bay! (No T2 version? Wonder why.) But make the clones generated in there cost nothing. Every Titan with her own (somewhat endless) stream of Assault Frig/Destroyer wings. $
Call me a lier but: - Clone Vat Bay costs nothing (1 Liquid Ozone for 3 MIn of operation) - Clone Vat Bay can store up to 75 Clones with max skills - Installation of a clone costs 100k ISK which well is nothing
I dont see your point there....
But to contribute to the discussion here:
The problem here is that Titan is somewhat considered endgame. It is not only alliances who build them and magically donate them to their members but some of us worked months and months to get one. Therefore its considered a slap in the face for those players.
I think that the Titan Role as such is totally outdated since there are hundreds of them if planed once for only tens of them. Its logical that with time and the fact that there is no big Sink for ISK in game then Titans if it comes to game content.
Changing Turret behavior will not cure the problem just the symptoms even if a good solution is found, there will always just be another practical use for this ship.
Behavior in group should be adapted.
Disallow Jump in of Titans / Supers on a Cynosural to like 1 Titan per 5 Minute / System. Changing this way projection to 12 Titans per hour and each Titan deployed must be chosen very carefully.
Attacking forces can easily outrun such a fleet by changing system. If its about just fighting.
If it comes to Sov Warfare, an attacking force can easily switch to alternative target. Causing the defender to split up forces.
Force projection will be ultimately decided on a strategic level, the bigger an alliance gets the more it will be easy to distribute enough forces, but the bigger the territory gets the harder it will be to defend it.
There will be stranded Titans on daily bases, and hard decision on a strategical level taken daily.
Noob: "SOS: Titan tackled in M-O, need assistance!" Grand - Admiral: "No Sir, cant assist main fleet engaged in System BKG, Super Capital assistance low in system, die quietly !" |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
20
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:33:00 -
[265] - Quote
Killerhound wrote:Quote:Bring back the Clone Vat Bay! (No T2 version? Wonder why.) But make the clones generated in there cost nothing. Every Titan with her own (somewhat endless) stream of Assault Frig/Destroyer wings. $ Call me a lier but: - Clone Vat Bay costs nothing (1 Liquid Ozone for 3 MIn of operation) - Clone Vat Bay can store up to 75 Clones with max skills - Installation of a clone costs 100k ISK which well is nothing I dont see your point there...." Obviously.
My proposal is to stop treating the Titan as an overblown Battleship in need of a nerf(which is badly failing), but instead make it the force multiplier it-¦s supposed to be. It isn-¦t because clones are often more expensive than ships. The clone bay is ignored because of that. Of course the ship bays and corp hangars have to be balanced. I-¦ll leave the specifics to a higher pay-grade.
But about 7 waves of wings of 10 various (T2)frigates, basically instantly "respawning" on destruction should be worth something? Even in todays Drake and alpha addicted battlefields. |
Arthello
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2
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Posted - 2012.03.28 09:37:00 -
[266] - Quote
Katrina Bekers wrote:Make *any* weapon upgrade effect every turret on titans.
For example, gyrostabs on hybrids...
*rimshot* As a member of NCdot I second this notion. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
357
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:10:00 -
[267] - Quote
- limit the number of titans per fleet to one - limit the number of titans per alliance to one - remove the ability to RR other supers - increase titan mfg time and material bill (like tenfold or whatever)
Or any other fix that moves titans closer to their original idea, to be the flagship, and not fleet line ships. Their properties seem not to be the problem, but the fact that they exist in blobs.
DISCLAIMER: I'm a PUBBIE NUB SCRUB! I've never even seen a titan outside Luminaire. All I've seen are videos of fleets consisting almost only of titans, and that must be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen about EVE. Immersion-breaking at the very least. ---
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Killerhound
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
4
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:11:00 -
[268] - Quote
Clone Vat Bay is horribly broken or well absolutely worthless, due to following Problems:
- makes you immoblie (no warp, move, jump) - has a duration of 3 mins and needs to be activated - installation process is horribly complicated (needs pilot to invite "customer") - costs something - Usage is a oneway process, because it works only to jump to it not from it, therefor the clones in there have no imps unless carried with the titan. Horrible work if 75 dudes need there specific imps (Warfare imps, Hardwirings, ....) - Module needs to be active to jump to titan - You pop out of the titan around it, you have to board your ship and put in your imps before you can start the engagement.
All this makes this module only useful for Interdictor pilots or similar roles but in a very specific case....
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
615
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:23:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:...
Also, can you guys please stop +1ing - if you're under the impression that we're doing balance work based on how many posts there are in a thread you're barking up the wrong forest never mind the wrong tree. I'd hate to have to get someone to come in and clean the thread. If you do not respect that your subscribers believe a design idea has merit (hence their +1 support), then why even bother putting up a dev blog forum thread to which players can reply? If by "clean up" you mean remove subscriber input, then your lack of respect for your customer base is the same as it has been for the past several years. Your hubris is evidence that CCP's old guard is still set in its pre-2011 layoff ways and that does not bode well for EVE's or CCP's future. A good idea is a good idea and stands on its own. All +1ing - and particularly the kind of high-volume +1ing that we were seeing earlier in this thread, and I'm sure it was entirely a coincidence that a whole bunch of Goon/Test pilots dived into the thread within minutes to +1 it - does is make the thread harder to read, and more likely that a good idea gets lost in the deluge of posts. Use space likes instead, guys. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Acwron
Meet The Fockers Vera Cruz Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.03.28 10:59:00 -
[270] - Quote
Hey, I just got a brilliant idea !
Introduce fleet penalties ! More people in fleet, bigger penalty ! Goons dead. End of story. |
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