Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Zostera
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.15 11:54:00 -
[1]
Before I begin I would like to place my observations in context. I am a new player, I have a lot to learn, my experience of fleet engagements is low relative to many of you.
So here goes.
Capital ships have been defined in many different ways throughout history, most recently and perhaps most relevantly during WW2.
Almost without exception these ships formed the backbone of fleets, not simply due to their ability to lay down firepower, but also the need for mutual support and protection. The only notable exception to this are the "pocket battleships" operated primarily as lone commerce raiders during WW2.
Titans on the other hand can operate alone on grid without fear of attack simply by fitting a cloak. Their ability to operate independently of a fleet seems out of place, and cloaking an object that size does seem to me to be slightly absurd.
Perhaps removing a Titan ability to cloak would change the dynamics of their use, making them part of fleets rather than lone "bombers". This would I imagine make them somewhat more vulnerable to a well executed "Titan hunt" and make the use of doomsday weapons a more carefully planned event to avoid killing their own fleet.
This could perhaps be a way to handle the proliferation of Titans in game, their use demanding more careful planning and a greater risk of loss.
Noob thoughts perhaps, but I hope ones worth discussing by people with more experience than I.
|
Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.09.15 14:04:00 -
[2]
Cloaking isnt really the problem with titans, if anything its a general problem but i dont really see it as EVE is a sandbox game and you can do pritty much everything.
Refering to WW2 events you must realise that if humans would be allowed to evolve an populate other galaxies they would properly implement features on ships like a Titan that would infact make them operate on there own.
The Titans general problem is (no offence CCP) that the CCP Dev team was not good enough to imagin the applications for the ship they wore building when they implemented the titan.
I would love to know what the Devs had to say about stuff like
- Dual Dooms Daying
- Doomsdaying threw a POS force field
- The fear of Titans-Online
Back when they wore actually developing and implementing the titan ship.
Are this features all part of the sand box model that EVE is born into or did they actually have any faers of how a titan might be used years after it was implemented.
The way i see it the Titans never became the fleet flagship that people had imagined them to be. No one would ever warp a titan onto the grid along with the rest of there fleet cause it would make no sence. Titans alwayes operate on there own untill DD have occured, then you will maybe see a huge support fleet going in to defend it. But whats really the problem with the titans are that there is no real fleet application for the ship, appart from the gang bonuses it gives the ship have no application as a single entety in a normal fleet. Its guns are to huge to hit any normal vessel. It doesnt make any sence to fit any kind of fleet specific offensive weapons other then Smartbombs and Neuts.
So what this the vission of the titan.
When i started to play EVE back when it was in betatesting i was kinda imagining the titan to be a enourmos fleet flagship, Dockable like a movable station, a ship from which you could resupply to new ships and clone (not with the stupid vat bays but like a real station cloning facility) so you could get back in battle instantly. The ship should have had a huge peremiter defence, effective up to that of a normal damage fittet BS so that when you attacked the Titan you would have to be at a huge distance or you would be killed.
However the ship would not be able to operate on its own you would need skill of more then one player cause it was so big, some would man the Titans guns (peremiter defence) while other (one man) would pilote the ship and move it around the battlefield.
Like the Death Star of Starwars
I would have hoped that the Devs would have implemented the DD like its described in the EvE chronicals, a weapon that is able to destroy a entire ship with one shot - much like that of the Death Start.
So the peoblem is not cloaking cause you would cloak something that big if you had the technology.
|
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.15 14:29:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zostera
Titans on the other hand can operate alone on grid without fear of attack simply by fitting a cloak.
your statement is ******ed. all i have to do is start targeting a titan, and it cant cloak. there's pretty much nothing in the game easier to target then a titan. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for *them*, that all went out the window? |
Zostera
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.15 14:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: Zostera
Titans on the other hand can operate alone on grid without fear of attack simply by fitting a cloak.
your statement is ******ed. all i have to do is start targeting a titan, and it cant cloak. there's pretty much nothing in the game easier to target then a titan.
You can however log into game in system and cloak, that means the vessel does not require a support fleet until after it has engaged. This was the point I was making, that the ship should require that defence all the time, not only after it has DD'ed.
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.09.15 15:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sir Substance your statement is ******ed. all i have to do is start targeting a titan, and it cant cloak. there's pretty much nothing in the game easier to target then a titan.
Safe spot, cloak. Not hard. Now you can't touch the titan. Same as any other ship.
|
SpoonBender79
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 09:02:00 -
[6]
The cloak on a Titan is imo a good tactic on hiding it. Within EVE you can do a scan with or without probes that can identify all ships not cloaked, making hiding a not cloaked titan impossible. If you compare it to WW2 tactics, scanners wheren't that good and the opposing forces had to scout by sight, making the ocean a huge place to cover.
The fact that Titans aren't what most people had hoped they would become is something I can relate to. Imo they SHOULD have been a 'home away from home' as a mobile staging platform with enough resources and capabilities to be able to survive hostile space. Perimiter defence sounds good, a superweaping that kills other capitals in one shot other than a AOE weapon, and a tank that would need a whole fleet of dreads to break... maybe even some form of siege mode to reinforce the titan when it comes under attack.
Last but not least... make them EXPENSIVE!!! They should have been something special, now everyone has at least 1 Titan in the alliance and they have become a common sight.
Currious about others oppinions to this :)
|
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 11:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/09/2008 11:23:59
Originally by: Zostera ...cloaking an object that size does seem to me to be slightly absurd.
More or less absurd than creating artificial and stable wormholes for faster than light travel?
Originally by: SpoonBender79 Last but not least... make them EXPENSIVE!!!
Do you want to imply they are cheap at around 60bn isk? Care to buy me one?
|
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 12:05:00 -
[8]
Alls a titan needs is a scripted dd to stop it just warping into blobs and dd'ing and running away. Which is completely NOT what tians where meant to be.. (Fathers of the fleet? yeah more like back-stabbing ***** of the fleet) You know somethings wrong when titans fit smartbombs rather than cap guns as they never need to use them
Awesome EVE history
|
Evanade
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 13:35:00 -
[9]
Before you take their cloak away, give titans a role bonus in the form of a 1000% boost to shield boost and armor rep amount. As it stands no single ship can 'tank' a force of dreadnaughts, thus they will run and hide rather. --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored |
Zostera
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 14:31:00 -
[10]
Edited original post to include some ideas from the thread.
|
|
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 18:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Evanade Before you take their cloak away, give titans a role bonus in the form of a 1000% boost to shield boost and armor rep amount. As it stands no single ship can 'tank' a force of dreadnaughts, thus they will run and hide rather.
It wld be kinda impossible to take one out then If a blobb of dreads cant kill it..what can? Another titan? That just makes allainces with less/no titans very vulnerable. If thye say, gave a slightly less extreme bonus while using a focus script, they might be prety cool then..
Awesome EVE history
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 19:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Evanade Before you take their cloak away, give titans a role bonus in the form of a 1000% boost to shield boost and armor rep amount. As it stands no single ship can 'tank' a force of dreadnaughts, thus they will run and hide rather.
It wld be kinda impossible to take one out then If a blobb of dreads cant kill it..what can? Another titan? That just makes allainces with less/no titans very vulnerable. If thye say, gave a slightly less extreme bonus while using a focus script, they might be prety cool then..
An Avatar, fit with all capital/officer gear, and fitted for maximal tank, including 3 Armored Warfare Links(a pretty unreasonable setup), can tank something like 7759 DPS. A DPS-fit Moros can do 7341. Thus, 11 DPS-fit Moros can break a tank-fit Avatar, even after the proposed change. If you're worth bringing a Titan to smash, you should be able to muster 11 dreads. And if you get 20, you can drop it from full in less than 90 seconds. That's hardly invincibility, at least not against any reasonable-sized foe.
I've actually proposed letting Titans use both a Siege Module and a Triage Module simultaneously, to produce a similar effect. It's 16x the size, not 10x, but it also locks them into place and produces a plethora of side benefits(like, say, making those turret slots usable). But a flat 10x bonus would at least make it possible to make people use Titans in fleets, which is something that I think everybody wants. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: BiggestT You know somethings wrong when titans fit smartbombs rather than cap guns as they never need to use them
This. You hit the nail right on the head.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Magmain
Interstellar Planetary KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zostera Before I begin I would like to place my observations in context. I am a new player, I have a lot to learn, my experience of fleet engagements is low relative to many of you.
And thats when you should have stopped and not posted
|
Zostera
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 06:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Magmain
Originally by: Zostera Before I begin I would like to place my observations in context. I am a new player, I have a lot to learn, my experience of fleet engagements is low relative to many of you.
And thats when you should have stopped and not posted
Perhaps so, or also perhaps the idea sows a small seed that grows into the basis for discussion. Counter arguments and proposals are welcome and will maybe make a stronger "whole" idea that could benefit the game and make it more fun.
|
arbiter reformed
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 07:49:00 -
[16]
i seem to be the only one who thinks there's nothing wrong with titans themselves. it makes it easier to defend your space and harder to attack. it keeps ppl on their toes, its always a laugh when everyones warpin off sh1tin themselves, there massivly massivly expensive ad hard to build so the should be quite good. there effect in capitol engagments is not notworthy and shouldnt be (there aim is to kill support on a mass scale). which even then they rarley get more than 50kills and usually take freindlies with them+ its not hard to decloak a titan thats not the issue and they have very limeted defenses when they are cought (except of course another titan) i admit there are to many of them ingame but has anyone got an intelligent solution (ie not a kill caps with a focused dd , thats a really really bad idea for so many reasons) that doesnt involve changing there basic uses or wiping them out alltogether? Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
arbiter reformed
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 07:58:00 -
[17]
and as for using titans in fleets thats a role thats already filled ( f00k1ng motherships !!!) the reason there possible to catch is that there superweapon is not usefull in fleet engagements while there support is there.
so you turn it into a massive dps dealer, fine ok now bob automaticly wins any capfight. so you make it have a focused wepon/s to kill regular ships. then u can sit 10 off them in your blob of snipers and take out anything that comes into system. make them good at pos shooting. we already have dreds
what im saying is the principle of the doomsday is a goodun and any good fleet will be expecting and ready for it. Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 11:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Magmain
Originally by: Zostera Before I begin I would like to place my observations in context. I am a new player, I have a lot to learn, my experience of fleet engagements is low relative to many of you.
And thats when you should have stopped and not posted
Why so? Newbies can have good ideas too. And he had the decency to advertise it up front, meaning we could read his thread with the proper mindset and level of skepticism. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 18:44:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gonada on 17/09/2008 18:44:54
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Magmain
Originally by: Zostera Before I begin I would like to place my observations in context. I am a new player, I have a lot to learn, my experience of fleet engagements is low relative to many of you.
And thats when you should have stopped and not posted
Why so? Newbies can have good ideas too. And he had the decency to advertise it up front, meaning we could read his thread with the proper mindset and level of skepticism.
sorry , EVE isnt wow, where you are a knowitall after 1 day
theres alot your missiong, like 60 billion isnt cheap for one, the immense time it take to train to fly it, the fact that you can just "dock up" and so on and so forth.
but , other than that, the theory does have a few solid points, alas it would take a complete rework to accomplish it.
Please, jump into traffic
|
BloodHair
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 19:45:00 -
[20]
Edited by: BloodHair on 17/09/2008 19:49:12 Beautiful... but don't forget that the "heart" and the other body parts must be logged in game. I don't know if you have a life out of the game, but the biggest problem is: does the fleet exist when no one is logged? No it doesn't. Everybody disappear after 15 min. This is probably the reason why CCP did not create a ship were ppl dock in or some other ship that create a strong dependency on a single player logged in the game, specially if the titan work as a kind of POS. Maybe a NPC-controlled titan with no pilot inside, would be a nice idea. It would be controlled by one or more players, as the POS guns are, and it would not "disappear" when ppl log off. Automatic defense mode (similar to POSs) would also be nice. Thinking more carefully about it, it would be a kind of mobile POS, without the reinforced mode... I hope I didn't flame too much your post here... It would be even more awesome if you start thinking about it as a mobile battlestation, mobile mining station or mobile alliance home station. But sincerely, these "real" motherships would be another ship class in the game, or a kind of tech 2 titan.
|
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gonada sorry , EVE isnt wow, where you are a knowitall after 1 day
theres alot your missiong, like 60 billion isnt cheap for one, the immense time it take to train to fly it, the fact that you can just "dock up" and so on and so forth.
but , other than that, the theory does have a few solid points, alas it would take a complete rework to accomplish it.
I never claimed that this particular newbie had it all right. On the issue of Titan fixes, I don't think I've seen anyone come up with an answer that felt right yet, and I've been looking for a while. I'm just saying that hating on newbie posts solely for who is making them is a good way to destroy your community, and I'm not a fan of argumentum ad hominem at the best of times. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Zostera
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Zostera on 18/09/2008 10:18:46 Yes it is true I am new, yes I may be missing some detail of the mechanics, but that too is why I posted for discussion, and sometimes a fresh view can be useful. I am not in a position to make a post saying "This is how it should be exactly", however it never hurts to stand an idea up for constructive criticism and development, and it is you, the more experienced players that can add something to that.
On the idea itself some interesting points have been made.
The original concept was to look at a way of bringing Titans into fleets. It may have been a simplistic idea, but removing their cloak does achieve that objective since they would require support. That was the seed.
Given that a Titan now needs fleet support, the idea has opened discussion on how the Titan would benefit from, and contribute to the fleet.
The POS shield idea was adapted from comments on the ships vulnerability and was not intended to turn the ship into a static item on the field, but rather retain it's current mobility with stronger defenses and add to the fleet by acting as a defensive stronghold. Fleet and Titan jump bridge into system, Titan shields up around the fleet, fleet align to objective at 0 speed and fleet warp... arriving inside the Titan shields. Combat would need to take place outside of the shields as normal.
The Titan may also be useful as a hangar for spare ships, ammo, mod changes to suit circumstances. I am unsure on the current hangar size, but imagine a circumstance where some pilots could change ships more readily, from Battleships to HACS and Recons for example, allowing the fleet to adapt faster to changing situations.
None of these changes mean the fleet is completely dependent on the Titan, fleets can work as current, but the "new" Titan would add another dimension to the dynamics of fleet battles perhaps.
Please continue with the ideas, point out where I am wrong, add new thoughts and explain them and develop the basic framework so far... and maybe, just maybe we can add something good to the game.
|
Tash D'Angst
Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 23:57:00 -
[23]
I like the spirit of the post, and throw my vote in with the "Not How We Imagined Titans" crew. Sadly, I don't have anything new to add.
I would only like to stipulate that Titans are lag machines, even under their current (common) usage. The same goes, in my limited experience, with multiple refits taking place in space, even at Carriers. To combine the two factors into one, then establish a mobile wall-of-invulnerability (as per the POS shield idea) could only make it worse.
My vote has always been to fix the lag first, then balance out the game/make specific ship adjustments. Given, it's not even remotely feasible unless we get rid of Empire altogether. Barring a game-wide 0.0 nap to go ousting all non-PvP-alts from High Sec, I suspect we'll never see a substantial fix to desyncs/system lag. Does CCP still deny that they exist, btw? Ugh.
--Tash
|
H0NZA
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 12:01:00 -
[24]
I sign this makes all sense to me the Titans do need to change first of all big objects with high power does not mean there powerful necessarily specially cloaking should stay for the Titan but should be run on fuel this way Titans would have to becareful how long they stay cloak.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |