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Kasity
General Mayhem Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:17:00 -
[1]
what can be done about a ship that is 200km away, can claok and rewarp from any object at 100km? (if not more with bookmarks and rewarps etc)
At the moment, falcons are balanced by their weak Hit Points, and the fact alot of ships can reach them quite quickly. But if you havnt the speed to reach them before the pilot relizes your coming, what can be done to counter the?, except chase them off.
Just hoping people wil give input.
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Evanade
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:18:00 -
[2]
Atm speed doesn't help you any either as a competent pilot will only be uncloaked for about 8 seconds then recloak while his jam cycles finish, so as a fast tackler you have very little to go by.
--------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:34:00 -
[3]
Well, speed nerf buffs all ranged ships, including the Falcon.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Aveng3X
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aveng3X on 17/09/2008 09:49:57 Well you can fit ECCM for a start and stop whining :)
Oh, and then there's the wide range of long range weapons that you can use, like railguns, cruise missiles and so on.
Or you can just bring your own ECM ship like a Falcon, or even better, an Arazu or Lachesis to screw up their range.
Or you could get another force recon to decloak right on top of them then screw them up.
Trust me, I'm a Falcon pilot :p
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Aveng3X Well you can fit ECCM for a start and stop whining :)
Yeah, you can (and should, and I always personally do). Ships which have issues fitting ECCM make me sad in general.
However: (a) it's not nearly that effective as you make it seem, and it doesn't solve the issue of a cloaky ship with 200km range and nearly equal effectiveness to other ships doing the same which can also jam, recloak for maximum whorage.
(b) relock times give Falcon a 40% effectiveness boost when jamming ECCM-ed BS with 1 racial (see the analysis in the other thread).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Aveng3X Well you can fit ECCM for a start and stop whining :)
.......to other ships doing the same which can also jam, recloak for maximum whorage.
(b) relock times give Falcon a 40% effectiveness boost when jamming ECCM-ed BS with 1 racial (see the analysis in the other thread).
Ofc that scenario is only when the falcon remains in position and keeps running the jammer permanently, which a Rook can do just as well. A Falcon that cloaks and moves about will also have relocking to deal with as well as sensor recalibration which will effectively reduce the amount of jamming being done.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Spartan dax
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Aveng3X Well you can fit ECCM for a start and stop whining :)
.......to other ships doing the same which can also jam, recloak for maximum whorage.
(b) relock times give Falcon a 40% effectiveness boost when jamming ECCM-ed BS with 1 racial (see the analysis in the other thread).
Ofc that scenario is only when the falcon remains in position and keeps running the jammer permanently, which a Rook can do just as well.
It's a generic ECM thing, not a Falcon specific thing, just wanted to point out it boosts the time you get someone out of combat when using ECM at low jam probabilities.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:25:00 -
[8]
Yesterday me and a corpmate (me in a Drake, corp in a tanked Scorpion) went and engaged some pirate campers who had 2 Onyx and a Maelstrom sitting on the gate.
As soon as we engaged, a Falcon decloaked 130km away and jammed us both. I microwarped in my un-nano'd Drake (which will lose at most 10% of it's speed after the changes, btw) until I was in lock range, and soon after the Falcon failed a jam and I was able to fire. I overheated all my launchers, firing several volleys of Javelin HAMs before being jammed the next cycle.
It then exploded as the missiles I had managed to fire hit it, followed by the 2 Onyx. Sadly the Maelstrom bailed before we could point it.
1 failed jam was all it took.
- Infectious - |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:35:00 -
[9]
True, relock time is an important part of ECM but that whole thread is nothing like how ECM actually works in game which makes it dubious to use it as a starting point of a discussion in the first place.
In reality an ECCM'd BS will shoot back at you forcing you to warp off which significantly lowers the time a BS stays jammed over 200 secs or conversly the jammer will move around, possibly cloak which yields a decrease in effectiveness.
So Yes, relock times boosts a Falcons effectiveness by 40% in the graphs made in that thread but in reality it doesn't. It's there, it's significant but it's nowhere close to 40%.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/09/2008 10:40:28 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/09/2008 10:39:14
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
As soon as we engaged, a Falcon decloaked 130km away and jammed us both. I microwarped in my un-nano'd Drake (which will lose at most 10% of it's speed after the changes, btw) until I was in lock range, and soon after the Falcon failed a jam and I was able to fire. I overheated all my launchers, firing several volleys of Javelin HAMs before being jammed the next cycle.
It then exploded as the missiles I had managed to fire hit it, followed by the 2 Onyx. Sadly the Maelstrom bailed before we could point it.
1 failed jam was all it took.
Stupid pilots die all the time
But as you said, your Drake will lose 10% of its speed. We all will, and ranges stay the same.
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
In reality an ECCM'd BS will shoot back at you forcing you to warp off which significantly lowers the time a BS stays jammed over 200 secs or conversly the jammer will move around, possibly cloak which yields a decrease in effectiveness.
Well, in the small gang battlefield, BS are as a rule not sniper fit. Furthermore, many BS just can't reach 200km... so, no, not always.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:53:00 -
[11]
Yeah I get that. I think however with the speed nerf coming we will see a lot more medium and long range setup being used. In 0.0 anyway.
Personally I think it'll be great, I've always viewed the Caldari sub BS railboats with disdain and envied the Gallente ones but after the speednerf I'm actually looking forward to flying a Ferox and a Moa. And not with blasters.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.17 10:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina Yesterday me and a corpmate (me in a Drake, corp in a tanked Scorpion) went and engaged some pirate campers who had 2 Onyx and a Maelstrom sitting on the gate.
As soon as we engaged, a Falcon decloaked 130km away and jammed us both. I microwarped in my un-nano'd Drake (which will lose at most 10% of it's speed after the changes, btw) until I was in lock range, and soon after the Falcon failed a jam and I was able to fire. I overheated all my launchers, firing several volleys of Javelin HAMs before being jammed the next cycle.
It then exploded as the missiles I had managed to fire hit it, followed by the 2 Onyx. Sadly the Maelstrom bailed before we could point it.
1 failed jam was all it took.
LOL nice work. Falcon pilot musta been a bit nubby tho..130km decloak? wtf?
Awesome EVE history
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 11:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/09/2008 11:01:05
Originally by: Spartan dax Yeah I get that. I think however with the speed nerf coming we will see a lot more medium and long range setup being used. In 0.0 anyway.
Personally I think it'll be great, I've always viewed the Caldari sub BS railboats with disdain and envied the Gallente ones but after the speednerf I'm actually looking forward to flying a Ferox and a Moa. And not with blasters.
Meh, yes. I'm practicing with a arty Hurricane myself (in low-sec, small gang sort of thing). It's passable (even though speed nerf is going to nerf its range control/gtfo capabilities somewhat) even though it's preety much only effective up to 50km (which is mid range rather then long range but still tactically useful).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
royal killer
Amarr The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.09.17 11:01:00 -
[14]
Have a sniper apoc with u with 2 ECCM II's in every gang you have --------------------
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.17 11:15:00 -
[15]
Or a Cerberus with missile velocity rigs and 95 sensor strength.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.17 11:27:00 -
[16]
Jam the falcon ;)
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dolmant
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Posted - 2008.09.17 12:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina Yesterday me and a corpmate (me in a Drake, corp in a tanked Scorpion) went and engaged some pirate campers who had 2 Onyx and a Maelstrom sitting on the gate.
As soon as we engaged, a Falcon decloaked 130km away and jammed us both. I microwarped in my un-nano'd Drake (which will lose at most 10% of it's speed after the changes, btw) until I was in lock range, and soon after the Falcon failed a jam and I was able to fire. I overheated all my launchers, firing several volleys of Javelin HAMs before being jammed the next cycle.
It then exploded as the missiles I had managed to fire hit it, followed by the 2 Onyx. Sadly the Maelstrom bailed before we could point it.
1 failed jam was all it took.
Nice. Im surprised the falcon didnt warp. You also have days like mine, where a vaga is 70km off a gate, trying to draw one of my 4 man gang off a gate. Its me (rapier), 2 inties and an ishtar. We know they have a rapier and falcon cloaked. I warp away whilst the ishtar and inties aligns to the now non mwding vaga. I warp in at 70 and land 5k away from the vaga. I uncloak and my gang burns toward me. Both inties ar ethere and the ishtar is within 30km when the falcon uncloaks and JAMS US ALL. They all warp out while we yell at each other for not getting points and figure out we all were jammed.
P.S. Please while in this thread do not propose these as counters:
3 sniper BS to pop the falcon (3v1, not balanced. if one sniper BS could, then its balanced) Get you own falcon Burn out and wait for a fail jam. its chanced based (will never happen)
Current best counter for falcon = falcon (or rook) or sniper fleet.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.17 12:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 17/09/2008 12:33:57
Originally by: Gypsio III Or a Cerberus with missile velocity rigs and 95 sensor strength.
Meh, just a NanoCerb with FOFs will do the trick 99% of the time to be honest.
- Infectious - |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.17 12:51:00 -
[19]
Falcons aren't a particularly good counter to other Falcons. Falcons are hard enough to jam as it is; with an ECCM it's even harder. Yes, you can jam it, but you really want to be using jammers on easier-to-jam ships.
The other problem is that jamming a Falcon doesn't remove it from the field. As such, you've got to keep it jammed. If, instead, you apply some DPS to it, it'll either pop and be removed permanently or, more probably, warp out. Even if it just warps out it's removed from the field for a minute or so.
I was in a fight recently where both sides had Falcons. We used our Falcons to suppress their ECM. They applied DPS to our Falcons. Our Falcons had to warp. Their Falcon and Scorp won the ECM war.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.17 13:41:00 -
[20]
how do you got 200km range on a falcon? Using ECM range rigs?
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.17 13:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kasity what can be done about a ship that is 200km away, can claok and rewarp from any object at 100km? (if not more with bookmarks and rewarps etc)
At the moment, falcons are balanced by their weak Hit Points, and the fact alot of ships can reach them quite quickly. But if you havnt the speed to reach them before the pilot relizes your coming, what can be done to counter the?, except chase them off.
Just hoping people wil give input.
Laser beams are not being speed nerfed.
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.09.17 14:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kasity what can be done about a ship that is 200km away, can claok and rewarp from any object at 100km? (if not more with bookmarks and rewarps etc)
At the moment, falcons are balanced by their weak Hit Points, and the fact alot of ships can reach them quite quickly. But if you havnt the speed to reach them before the pilot relizes your coming, what can be done to counter the?, except chase them off.
Just hoping people wil give input.
Laser beams are not being speed nerfed.
Las0rs are being buffed... that doesnt help 90% of Falcon victims though nor is it entirely relevant to this discussion...
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.17 14:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Orion GUardian how do you got 200km range on a falcon? Using ECM range rigs?
With max skills, 1 range rig gets you (IIRC) 192Km with racials. Allow 25Km minimum margin for hostile ships to move (or jump in on the far side of the gate from where you're sitting) and you get a realistic engagement range of 175Km or so. A second range rig would probably get you up to 200Km or thereabouts.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.17 15:10:00 -
[24]
With range being nerfed then range will become much more powerful. You'll see a lot more people running ranged setups. Just 1 or 2 sniper BS will basically neutralize any falcon, either forcing to stay off grid, or simply pop him. Long range guns has always been the best way to deal with falcons. Any falcon pilot that allows you to MWD up to him and kill him is pretty damn bad.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.09.17 15:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: EFT Warrior on 17/09/2008 15:43:48 Falcons aren't balanced, not because it's overpowered (although I think it is, seriously what other recon ship can scare away an entire fleet from an engagement? Do you see FCs saying "Oh shit, they have a Curse, time to run!" ever? How about a Rapier?) but because other recons just can't compare because they don't have the range or the fitting to fit as many ECM-equivalent modules as the falcon. A curse can't neut to 150km, a rapier can't web an enemy from 150km, and it takes multiple damps on a Lachesis to equal the effect of 1-2 jammers.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.17 15:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Orion GUardian how do you got 200km range on a falcon? Using ECM range rigs?
Yep.
My falcon setup is:
Low: 1x Signal Amplifier II 2x Distortion Amplifier II
Med: 1x Sensor Booster II (no script) 5x Racial ECM IIs 1x 10mn MWD II
High: who gives a shit :P
Rigs: 2x Particle Dispersion Projector
Lock range 228.9km Scan resolution 367.4mm ECM range 228km optimal 41 falloff ECM strength 12.6773 primary, 4.2257 secondaries
Can fire all 5 jammers and boosters non-stop.
Have no problem jamming Caps with that setup and have dodged a few DDs at that range by MWDing away when the bubbles were deployed.
It is a very nice fleet ship but in general PvP will probably get mauled by FoFs.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.17 15:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/09/2008 15:51:04 Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/09/2008 15:50:23 What can you do about a Falcon?
Nothing.
Nothing at all.
Just sit there and wait to die.
Here's a hint: EFT dps isn't everything, try fitting for range if you want to kill ships at long range. Or, better, don't. I like it when nobody can kill my Falcon, even if I fail a jam cycle or ten.
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Kira Pasisson
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.09.17 16:21:00 -
[28]
as said before, u have long range bs, cerbs, eagles and a bunch of inties against a falcon...+ anti-jamming.....this is quite a bunch of ships.... furthermore u can fit eccm (dont whine about ecm if u are not willing to fit those....i dont whine about dps cause i dont want to fit a tank as well :P).... true the falcon is a very good pvp ship....although it gets more vulnerable the more ppl are in the fight....BUT when i see the number of threads saying caldari suck at pvp and when i see on how many areas caldari are inferior its simply justified that caldaris have a very good ship for this as well....
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Pharaik
Amarr CCCP INC
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Posted - 2008.09.17 16:24:00 -
[29]
its called get your own recons and keep them cloaked till they uncloack and then u jam them, an arazu works perfect against rooks and falcons as well.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.09.17 16:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pharaik its called get your own recons and keep them cloaked till they uncloack and then u jam them, an arazu works perfect against rooks and falcons as well.
Assuming, of course, the Falcon stays in damp range. And I think that's already been discussed to death. ----
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