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JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
32
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Leaving aside the Mitten's controversy, it does throw up a really interesting line of debate...
Where's the line between acceptable in-game griefing antics, and out-of-game cyber-bullying?
For instance:
- A high profile player, leader of an alliance known for griefing, shares some whine-mail tears from a gank victim who foolishly shared some out-of-game life-issues, confessing to be suicidal. Said alliance leader goes on to then call for other players to join in pushing the guy over the edge and kill himself.
- A nobody infilitrates a corp over a few weeks and makes off with their hanger stuffs. In the whine-mails that follow, members of the victim corp accuse the player of being out-of-game an immoral ass-hole, and threaten to find him on facebook and show the world (or at least his FB friends) what he's really like.
- A FPS-MMO team know each other well out of game, and are used to smacking with comments relating to team-mate's mother's whoring. They are joined in a game by a complete stranger, who's mother actually was a *****, and gave him up for adoption at age 6. Their smack talk is offensive and hurtful to him, and he tells them explaining why. The smack talk continues.
- ...
Is there a line to cross where EVE / MMO players go from being griefers, or whiners, to engaging in behaviour that's just not acceptable out-of-game? Is the line subjective, or is there some absolute benchmark? |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
436
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Leaving aside the Mitten's controversy, it does throw up a really interesting line of debate...
Where's the line between acceptable in-game griefing antics, and out-of-game cyber-bullying?
Lol cyber-bullying. Just the fact that this term exists proves what farking whiners people have all become. The greatest irony is that people use "cyber bullying" to try to manipulate (or bully) people into modifying their behavior through falsely attributing guilt. You know what? If you can't handle the internet there is a real simple solution. Some people can't handle their liquor either, and others try to use that as an excuse to ban alcohol entirely. That type of thinking is ridiculous and belongs back in the middle-ages. Help the people who need help and who respond to help, and leave the rest of us alone. Stop trying to impose arbitrary and unenforcable "regulations" and better still, "morals" on everyone else. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And boy have we had a lot of those lately.
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JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
32
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:
Lol cyber-bullying. Just the fact that this term exists proves what farking whiners people have all become. The greatest irony is that people use "cyber bullying" to try to manipulate (or bully) people into modifying their behavior through falsely attributing guilt. You know what? If you can't handle the internet there is a real simple solution. Some people can't handle their liquor either, and others try to use that as an excuse to ban alcohol entirely. That type of thinking is ridiculous and belongs back in the middle-ages. Help the people who need help and who respond to help, and leave the rest of us alone. Stop trying to impose arbitrary and unenforcable "regulations" and better still, "morals" on everyone else. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And boy have we had a lot of those lately.
The Wild West used to be a realative free-for-all too. These days we have laws that people recognise, about property ownership, civil rights, and so on.
Are you saying the web isn't going to develope this way, or that it shouldn't?
(BTW, I'm not opening this us with an axe to grind, just interested in opinions.)
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Clith
Tr0pa de elite. G00DFELLAS
45
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
^ there's the line |
Doctor Eezee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
124
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well, I agree with the term cyber-bullying when it's related to teenager, but calling this cyber-bullying is stupid. Call it harrasment if you must... "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
452
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
One can never go wrong with being a class act. Those with class do not need to concern themselves with the line. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote: , members of the victim corp accuse the player of being out-of-game an immoral ass-hole, and threaten to find him on facebook and show the world (or at least his FB friends) what he's really like.
There is one right there.
Basically you can threaten and do whatever you want to a persons in game character. Within reason see EULA for harassment rules.
Anything you do out of game to the person behind the character falls under RL and there are RL laws that apply.
Keep in mind also under EULA that that CCP can kill your account for any reason at any time for absolutely no reason. However that is bad business practice to do so. But if you do something that could be considered politically incorrect (for lack of a better word) or something that brings bad press to the company, then once again you can expect a ban.
I will say one thing about Mitten's He fell prey to RP.
A lot of people will say they are not RPing but if you act different in game then you are in real life then you are RPing. And you need to keep that in mind and remember you could cross a line.
People have died in RL because they got caught up in RP (Dungeons and Dragons), and it is a lot easier then you think to get caught up in the moment and do something very stupid. |
JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Clith wrote:------------------------------------------------------
^ there's the line
Sorry, where?
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JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Doctor Eezee wrote:Well, I agree with the term cyber-bullying when it's related to teenager, but calling this cyber-bullying is stupid. Call it harrasment if you must...
My background is partly in Personnel, so while I think I see where you are coing from, I think the distinction is a social convention. Bullys are playground thugs who lord it over weaker kids. But increasingly there's a lot of recognition that bullying takes place right into adult professions. And more and more it is leading to massive industrial relations pay-outs.
Is calling it something different just making us feel more mature, or is it because there's a real difference? |
ExhumeToConsume
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Leaving aside the Mitten's controversy, it does throw up a really interesting line of debate... Where's the line between acceptable in-game griefing antics, and out-of-game cyber-bullying? For instance: - A high profile player, leader of an alliance known for griefing, shares some whine-mail tears from a gank victim who foolishly shared some out-of-game life-issues, confessing to be suicidal. Said alliance leader goes on to then call for other players to join in pushing the guy over the edge and kill himself.
- A nobody infilitrates a corp over a few weeks and makes off with their hanger stuffs. In the whine-mails that follow, members of the victim corp accuse the player of being out-of-game an immoral ass-hole, and threaten to find him on facebook and show the world (or at least his FB friends) what he's really like.
- A FPS-MMO team know each other well out of game, and are used to smacking with comments relating to team-mate's mother's whoring. They are joined in a game by a complete stranger, who's mother actually was a *****, and gave him up for adoption at age 6. Their smack talk is offensive and hurtful to him, and he tells them explaining why. The smack talk continues.
- ...
Is there a line to cross where EVE / MMO players go from being griefers, or whiners, to engaging in behaviour that's just not acceptable out-of-game? Is the line subjective, or is there some absolute benchmark?
In the UK, "cyber-bullying" typically refers to the tactic of infiltrating another's Facebook (and/or other social media pages) and leaving offensive/threatening comments/pictures/video clips. Usually this behaviour is coupled with spreading lies about said person via the bully's own social media pages. The important thing to note is that everyone knows who the target is, as it is their real life persona being assassinated, and the pattern of abuse is sustained. Finally, the person being harassed in this way has to be angry enough about it for him/herself (or their legal guardians) to press charges and demonstrate to a judge that they suffered genuine harm.
Compare that to this "controversy", where an anonymous Internet space persona (his/her real life identity is still unknown) claimed in an Internet space communication that he/she was suicidal about having their Internet space pixels blown up. Said space persona was then roundly mocked by an inebriated larping person on a live Internet video feed. After the larping one sobered up, he realised the error of his ways and apologised in public, and gave all his space kredits to the "victim" by way of compensation. The space victim him/herself was basically "meh" about it, despite the encouragement of a segment of the playerbase with an axe to grind.
Of course, they're exactly the same why am I seriousposting? Death to the Mittani and death to Goonswarm |
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JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:One can never go wrong with being a class act. Those with class do not need to concern themselves with the line.
Even classy people eventually get drunk and do something stupid. Are you saying that if you carry yourself well enough, people won't notice and not care, that it's just a case of image?
What about when the image fails? Surely you something less subjective?
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Anderron Shi
1st MC
18
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Leaving aside the Mitten's controversy, it does throw up a really interesting line of debate... Where's the line between acceptable in-game griefing antics, and out-of-game cyber-bullying? For instance: - A high profile player, leader of an alliance known for griefing, shares some whine-mail tears from a gank victim who foolishly shared some out-of-game life-issues, confessing to be suicidal. Said alliance leader goes on to then call for other players to join in pushing the guy over the edge and kill himself.
- A nobody infilitrates a corp over a few weeks and makes off with their hanger stuffs. In the whine-mails that follow, members of the victim corp accuse the player of being out-of-game an immoral ass-hole, and threaten to find him on facebook and show the world (or at least his FB friends) what he's really like.
- A FPS-MMO team know each other well out of game, and are used to smacking with comments relating to team-mate's mother's whoring. They are joined in a game by a complete stranger, who's mother actually was a *****, and gave him up for adoption at age 6. Their smack talk is offensive and hurtful to him, and he tells them explaining why. The smack talk continues.
- ...
Is there a line to cross where EVE / MMO players go from being griefers, or whiners, to engaging in behaviour that's just not acceptable out-of-game? Is the line subjective, or is there some absolute benchmark? Who gives a f*ck?
Get some! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
452
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:One can never go wrong with being a class act. Those with class do not need to concern themselves with the line. Even classy people eventually get drunk and do something stupid. Are you saying that if you carry yourself well enough, people won't notice and not care, that it's just a case of image? What about when the image fails? Surely you something less subjective?
You want a subjective answer in an objective discussion? If you don't know what class is, in this context, I can not help you. |
JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
33
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:JTK Fotheringham wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:One can never go wrong with being a class act. Those with class do not need to concern themselves with the line. Even classy people eventually get drunk and do something stupid. Are you saying that if you carry yourself well enough, people won't notice and not care, that it's just a case of image? What about when the image fails? Surely you something less subjective? You want a subjective answer in an objective discussion? If you don't know what class is, in this context, I can not help you.
I think I typoed... I was meaning surely you need something less subjective than "class" - however you define it (although I get what you mean - you know class when you see it). |
JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
33
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Anderron Shi wrote: Who gives a f*ck
Law-makers. Policy-crafters. People who don't want the internetz to be over-flowing with pointless regluation. People who do want the interwebz to overflow with regulation. Intelligent people. Thinking people.
Honestly, these claims that EVE's average player IQ is higher than WoW's are really let down by ludites like you. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
205
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
ExhumeToConsume wrote: Compare that to this "controversy", where an anonymous Internet space persona (his/her real life identity is still unknown) claimed in an Internet space communication that he/she was suicidal about having their Internet space pixels blown up. Said space persona was then roundly mocked by an inebriated larping person on a live Internet video feed. After the larping one sobered up, he realised the error of his ways and apologised in public, and gave all his space kredits to the "victim" by way of compensation. The space victim him/herself was basically "meh" about it, despite the encouragement of a segment of the playerbase with an axe to grind
Of course, they're exactly the same why am I seriousposting? Death to the Mittani and death to Goonswarm
First, thank you for "seriousposting". Doesn't it feel good to step out of character every now and again to let everyone know that you're not actually an antisocial f**kface?
Second, it doesn't matter if the victim turned out to actually be someone's alt who was just screwing with Alex. Your Glorious Leader had no way of knowing whether he/she was "serious" or not, and so his actions were supremely irresponsible
Third, do yourself a favour and stop with the "he was drunk, haven't you ever done anything stupid when drunk?" line. People who get drunk and then hurt other people are typically punished more harshly than otherwise. That's why you don't get into a car drunk, and that's why you don't go on live f*cking broadcasts drunk
Finally, you're right in mocking the word "controversy" in this case, cause it's not in any way a controversy. Everyone knows he done did a stupid thing |
Saint Lazarus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
202
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
The line is a dot to you! |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Delete facebook profile.
Stop playing games that you can adjust.
Problem solved. |
Anderron Shi
1st MC
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Anderron Shi wrote: Who gives a f*ck
Law-makers. Policy-crafters. People who don't want the internetz to be over-flowing with pointless regluation. People who do want the interwebz to overflow with regulation. Intelligent people. Thinking people. Honestly, these claims that EVE's average player IQ is higher than WoW's are really let down by ludites like you. *luddite Get some! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
452
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:I think I typoed... I was meaning surely you need something less subjective than "class" - however you define it (although I get what you mean - you know class when you see it).
Ah, typos are hell, no biggie. And yes, class speaks for it self, just like good art. No one needs to tell you it is good art, you just know it. |
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Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
205
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Delete facebook profile
Stop playing games that you can adjust.
Problem solved.
No.
Like it or not, this is a community that you've joined. Every community needs rules if it's to function properly.
I understand that Goons are all about playing this weird role where they pretend to be assholes, but there IS a line.
You're now, finally, seeing what happens when you cross it.
Adapt or leave. |
Selinate
750
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Once anything goes out of game, it is crossing the line
Once anything is said that is in extremely poor taste and is unacceptable in any circumstance, it has crossed the line (i.e. jokes about suicide, r*pe, or proclaiming that you will find someone and kill them out of the game)
Once a pattern of harassment against a player in game has been established, it has crossed the line
There is hardly any grey area to me. Stuff like what happened at fanfest and what happens in Eve every day crosses the line. People can make jokes about the most horrible things in local chat in Eve and not get reprimanded at all. This is not right, and I can't think of another MMO out there where the GM's wouldn't give the person who did something like this at least a 2 week ban almost immediately for saying these kinds of things.
The best thing about this is that if Eve changes through this episode and ends up enforcing policies against such actions, the |
JTK Fotheringham
Resurrected Darkness
33
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Delete facebook profile.
Stop playing games that you can adjust.
Problem solved.
Ok, so what if it's your real street address, or your employer?
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1116
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 14:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thread lacks content suitable for EVE General discussion.
Thread locked. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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