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Algey
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:47:00 -
[31]
What it needs is for someone to code a NAPfest killboard, so that the NC teams kills all show on one side, and the NC losses all show as one side. Reverse that for the GBC napfest and you'd have more reasonable stats.
Currently killboards are more amusing than anything else, as very few alliances stand alone ever.
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Keeves
Minmatar the evil ones Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:58:00 -
[32]
Only do ops with your alliance? I believe that will fix your problem...
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Fearless Kill
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:01:00 -
[33]
http://www.eve-razor.com/allykb/?a=home
is as close as I have seen to the "NC" killboard for the GBC vs NC fights
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Fred0
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:12:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Fred0 on 21/09/2008 08:12:36
Originally by: Leuthispar
You can make your kb pull stuff from ingame with the API, dont know exactly how it works but karbo's killboards(Tri kb for example) do that, so no matter if your kill/loss mail isnt on another kb to fetch it from it will be posted regardless. Only does it once every few days iirc though.
We synch hourly with the other NC killboards.
Quote: On another note I browse through a lot of ppl's kbs when im bored at work and I can tell you the reason why a lot of ppl seem to have positive performance on their kb but negative on others is just because they arent posting kms or dont have a tool to post it for them.
There's very few entities that don't automatically post both kills and losses nowadays.
Quote: I know this will sound biased because im TRI and ur NC but looking at Pure/Razor/Iron/Hydra even Morsus Mihi half of the lossmails and even some killmails are missing. Pick any random engagement and see the kills/losses then go to the enemy's boards and lookup same engagement and you'll see more kms.
Wait a couple hours is what I'd suggest or even half a day sometimes. There's alot of lag on generetaing mails in larger engagements aswell. --- "Cutting Edge 4 Life" |
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:29:00 -
[35]
All kbs must be looked at, and every "sides" totals totted up.
For example in Outbreak/Evokes recent campaign vs KIA/Daisho, to get an accurate picture of the combat situation, all 4 kbs must be looked at, totals totted up, and there you should have an accurate view of the stats involved.
That said these raw isk stats are skewed by ships not lost in combat etc (KIA lost a JF in empire for example), so alongside those raw stats a need for understanding the combat reports coming back from the front lines is also required.. add all this together, wade through the smack and bullshit, and maybe you'll get a somewhat accurate picture of any combat campaign.. maybe not :)
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Imperius Blackheart |
Niraco79
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:32:00 -
[36]
to actually give a good answer to the op and not into bob/razor e-peen competition lead by coward alts:
KB are a tool for internal use and external propaganda.
1. Internal use
KB for alliances that have the rule of mandatory post of losses:
show the fittings of the guys who lost ships, and make the leaders to whip those who are coming in useless ships or with useless fittings,
Show where people take stupid losses (aka not on frontlines)
KB for kills
show enemy standard fitting line, show a statistical involvement of each enemy alliance, show your own pilots involvement (aka will show if your pilor join the fleet and stay cloaked in a ss not to lose it - i heard from a fellow romanian from NC - i laughed at him for 2 days. not that the true guys who fight in NC do it.it was just an exception so is not intended to be smack)
KB in smart hands can be used as internal tools in a miriad ways. i did not write even 10% of those
2. KB for external propaganda.
Now here do the math. just read CAOD every day :)
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Mihailo Great
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:35:00 -
[37]
The only efficiency rating that matters to me is member happiness.
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 08:52:00 -
[38]
Maybe all people should show up in the KM (for reference reasons)
But the actual kill is awarded to the max dmg person (not the final blow cause most of the times this is random).
All other guys should get something like a new stat that says "involvement in kill" (like an advanced version of the kills/real kills in pilot stats). But that would affect alliance also.
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Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's
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Posted - 2008.09.21 09:05:00 -
[39]
only benefit on campaigns is 2 things, isk vs isk ratio and kills vs kills. yeah both are messy but if you take both in acount on a campaign you get a general picture on how well/bad its going Grunt's |
Jenney
Federal Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.09.21 09:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG.
It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different.
If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss.
If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth.
Its not that hard to fix this problem one way would be to just have one big killboard for all the power bloc
Another way would be to have fraction kills system. So if you have a fleet battle with a mixed alliance fleet on your side like razor,iron MM ect and you get a kill with say 2 razor, 5 mm, 3 iron on it and the kill a Bob BS . Each player would get a 0.1 kill as they helped 10%, then the razor killboard would show 0.2 of a BS kill
As your killboard will look a bit odd you can then take the 0.2 of a kill and multiply it by some poins value you give each type of ship or and again for the total value of the ship killed as its the cost thats more important than the syimple number of kills
This way you get to see just how much your alliance helped in the big war.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 09:29:00 -
[41]
If you want to compare results, the best way to compare the evolution of a certain campaign is actually compare the losses for all sides. For you to be able to do it you have to check the reported losses of all involved alliances on their KB. Of course it will have a error margin because all the losses will not be reported.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:15:00 -
[42]
The old ISS killboard was pretty amazing, it was coded specifically for the alliance and was the only completely fair killboard I've ever seen in EVE.
I'm sure anyone who remembers how it calculated ISK won/lost would agree with me.
(essentially, each pilot on a killmail was allocated a portion of the ISK value of the kill, so that if one ISS pilot was on the KM for a carrier, along with 30 other people from other alliance, it would not count as a whole kill, but 1/30th of a kill)
----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
taylor04
Caldari Digital assassins G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:37:00 -
[43]
do i detect more NC crying over nothing...
boo f u c k i n g hoooo
faill thread
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Wap Pie
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:38:00 -
[44]
Kill boards are there to show what you kill but like you said if there are 20+ people on 1 kill mail from like 4 alliances that means there are 4 claimed kills. What about just a loss board. Post all losses not with who is on it etc just the loss record and if all alliances do that you know exactly what alliance losses are and coalition losses. -
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Faekurias
Black Legion Command
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:43:00 -
[45]
People still care about K/D ration? ------------------ We are recruiting.
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Snowcrow
Minmatar Lyonesse. KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:46:00 -
[46]
the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works.
if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players.
wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p
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Tom Sellert
NAF
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:52:00 -
[47]
Just use killboards for what they are. Kills! Goto bob kb to see their kills and your kb for your kills.
Use your own lossmails to better yourself and nothing else. Regards
Tom Sellert Chief of Staff |
Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:55:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Snowcrow the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works.
if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players.
wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p
Yes, thats exactly how the old ISS killboard used to work. As I say, the only "fair" killboard I've seen in EVE.
But, well, don't underestimate the lure of e-peen ----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Doctor Oda
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:05:00 -
[49]
personanly I never look at that silly stats stuff as it's not what defines the game.
There should be 2 things to think about in this game.
1. Have he achieved our goals. 2. Whats next. di
Stats are just stupid and people only look at them to make there loss semm better. If you start talking about did we kill more of them than they did of us it means nothing as if they killed 100 and you killed 200, who won?? them if you only had 100 and they had 201 as they get the loot and cover the loss.
Or even. whats worst 1 Mammy or 20 carriers.....depends on if the carriers are insured....But it changes nothing if you loose space as how many ships are taken from the enemy that were burned in the fire sales and no longer on the front line/////////////
Any way,,,, Stats are only for stroking peoples egos.
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Doctor Oda
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: KIAEddZ All kbs must be looked at, and every "sides" totals totted up.
For example in Outbreak/Evokes recent campaign vs KIA/Daisho, to get an accurate picture of the combat situation, all 4 kbs must be looked at, totals totted up, and there you should have an accurate view of the stats involved.
That said these raw isk stats are skewed by ships not lost in combat etc (KIA lost a JF in empire for example), so alongside those raw stats a need for understanding the combat reports coming back from the front lines is also required.. add all this together, wade through the smack and bullshit, and maybe you'll get a somewhat accurate picture of any combat campaign.. maybe not :)
Again, pointless.
What could it possible show, not who won nor lost. EVE is allabout taking space in 0.0 alliances so losses change noting if you take space.
Kill boards are a waist of time imo, they change nothing and are only as true as the people posting them.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:19:00 -
[51]
CCP should just collect all the information themselves rather than force people to host kill boards which just host the same crap incomplete information.
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PsychoBones
R.E.C.O.N. A.X.I.S
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Snowcrow the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works.
if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players.
wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p
Yes, thats exactly how the old ISS killboard used to work. As I say, the only "fair" killboard I've seen in EVE.
But, well, don't underestimate the lure of e-peen
The IAC killboard also works like that as well.
R.E.C.O.N. - Helping a soon-to-be defunct alliance failurecascade near you. |
Kathryn Inara
Freelancer Ltd
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:40:00 -
[53]
I don't believe Hydra ever achieved a higher than 50% efficiency at anything. But that's beating a dead horse...
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Dkiler
Dkiller Delta Force Corp. CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:45:00 -
[54]
Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair.
If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right
CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dkiler Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair.
If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right
CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home
Congratulations on entirely missing the point of the thread, and proving why killboard stats are so useless - quite a feat. ----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Hey You
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:01:00 -
[56]
This thread is now complete. Butter dog. KD ratio. Killboard discussion.
Only missing Mynas for utter perfection.
Good enough for my touch of leetnes for contribution. __________________________________
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Amuko
Amarr Disturbance Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:23:00 -
[57]
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
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remo man
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:29:00 -
[58]
It's pretty simple, those stats should be taken with a pinch of salt. The further you go from a solo kill the less accurate it will be. You can look at it from a corp perspective and see that when the more people you have on the mail the less it holds a clear representation of what happened, who was responsible for it etc. Only who "shared" the credit for it and who dealt the most damage/got the final is clear, which tells you a limited amount and can potentially distort the reality of the situation.
As it is now CCP have brought in the amount of dmg done by each person which is an awesome feature for players and leaders alike. That if anything is what people can analyse and see.."oh hey x corp or y alliance were all at the top/bottom they know what they are doing/haven't got a clue.
As for the answer, i don't really think there is any need for one. The current system shows enough (limited) info to be usefull while still allowing the team play aspect of the game to be at the forefront. If you change the system so that its percentage based, you will have alot more people thinking from a self centred view point, which obviously doens't work in a TEAM orientated game, especially at alliance level.
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Tonkin
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:59:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Tonkin on 21/09/2008 12:59:42
Originally by: Bruce Deorum Ok.
All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken.
When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill.
So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance.
Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign.
So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio?
tri killbaord basis its stats off isk damage etc. k/d ratio always been fecked but tbh i dont post on tri kb, api thingy thingy for the corp does it.
tri members are lazy and dont post kills makes lots of us emorage quit |
Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.21 14:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Ishamel 1 on 21/09/2008 14:56:20 You can get a pretty clear picture off the killboards. You just go to the killboard of the biggest entity in the powerblock involved and take the kills from there. There will be few kills that the largest entity was not involved in, and as killmails are pretty quickly hunted down it should be fairly accurate. Ignore losses from all boards.
So for example in a GBC vs NC fight where the NC forces largely comprised of say razor, you would go to the BoB and Razor boards and look at kills, ignoring losses. Its not accurate but gives the clearest indication.
Of course this thread was obviously a troll as no-one doesn't know that k/d ratios etc are inaccurate when multiple alliances are involved in each side.
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