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Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:29:00 -
[1]
I'm sure there are plenty of pro's and con's to this idea that haven't occured to me and I would apprecaite some constructive critism on this idea. If you're just going to give one of those psuedo witty one liner replies then go elsewhere.
Ships
To introduce space mines there would need to be two classes of mine ships introdued. Mine hunters and mine layers. Mine Layers will have a bonus which gives a 90% CPU need reduction on the use of a Mine Deployers and Mine Hunters will have a bonus to reduce the CPU nee of Mine Defusers and Mine Scaners by 90%.
Modules
Stealth Mine Deployer - Deploys Steath mines. Stealth mine deployment time deduced by 5% per level of Stealth Mine Deployment (Required level 5 Mine deployment)
Mine scanner - Locates stealth mines. Scanning time reduced by 10% for each level of Mine Scanning
Mine Defuser - Defuses mines. Chance to succesfully defuse a mine increased by 10% per level in Mine Defusing
Mines
Firstly mines will be like POS guns in that you can set their behaviour and how they respond to players depending on standing. Essentially this means that you can decide who is free to travel past them and who will set them off. Later ships will set them off at a greater range than smaller ships. Mines will come in specific and generic damamge types with generic doing less damage.
There will two several type of mine...
Standard mine - These will come in the form of damage specific or weaker damage generic. Their T2 form does greater damage, has a greater damage radius, and a greater trigger range than T1 mines
Stealth Mines - Same as standard mines but are stealthed. As the stealth module reduces available space inside the mine and affet the sensor range they have reduced damage, damage radius and trigger range. T2 has the same improvements as the standard mines have.
Stealth detection Charge There will be an option to load mines with a stealth detection charge that reduces their trigger range, damage and damage radius but it able to detect passing stealth ships and on detonation knocks them out of stealth. Will also be set off by non-stealted ships.
Restrictions in their use
1) As mines are indiscriminate weapons their use is banned in Empire space and attempting to deploy them will result in a response from CONCORD and the Empire whose space you are in. Possible standing loss as well.
2) Mines cannot be deployed withing a minimum of 10km of one another which can be reduced to 5km (With level 5 deployment skill that reduced the distance by 1km per level) to avoid stacking of mines. This distance is awaiting review after player feedback and will probably be much greater in the region of 25km.
3) It will take some time to deploy a mine so hopefully will avoid mine spamming unless appropriate resources are dedicated too it.
Applications
1) Defensive and offensive capabilities depending on how used. Defending alliances can place these on gate into their territory to assist with camps and attacking alliances can put them at gates leading into enemy space for the same reason or for just plain harrassment. Mine Hunters can take these down but need protection to do so.
2) Makes it more difficult for stealth able ships to travel through gates and sneak around systems if there is a chance that they will be knocked out of stealth and be killed by gate camps. Yes its a stealth nerf but since these mines can be set off by non-stealthed ships sending some cannon fodder through first (Noob job :D) will clear them out the way
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Benco97
Gallente
The Star League
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:30:00 -
[2]
Well, you know.. we've already HAD mines in the game and they didn't really work out so well.
 Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Snake Doctor
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:35:00 -
[3]
While this really IS and WAS an awesome idea, the mines caused some horribly bad lag and had to be removed.
They ended up going the way of the snowball/launchers if I recall correctly.
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Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Snake Doctor
While this really IS and WAS an awesome idea, the mines caused some horribly bad lag and had to be removed.
They ended up going the way of the snowball/launchers if I recall correctly.
Perhaps if they were limited too only a few within a certain area it would reduce the lag effect.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Jaabaa
Minmatar
Dental Drilling Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:40:00 -
[5]
Mines are technically already in game but there is no suitable launcher for them anymore.
They were removed from game mainly because of the lag that they caused when entering the grid.
There was also no "real" defense against them. You came out of warp and hit a load of them and then went boom.
There was also an added side effect. If you dropped mines in low sec and just left them there (i.e. forgot about them) then you might find yourself getting wasted by CONCORD because you were in high sec when someone else accidentally "found" one of your low sec mines.
So, we've had them, they weren't conducive to game play and caused a load of warp in LAG.
--
EVE Mobile Skill Planner V3 !!
http://evemsp.sourceforge.net/ |
Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lily Sarman
Originally by: Snake Doctor
While this really IS and WAS an awesome idea, the mines caused some horribly bad lag and had to be removed.
They ended up going the way of the snowball/launchers if I recall correctly.
Perhaps if they were limited too only a few within a certain area it would reduce the lag effect.
Well the whole point of mines is to make an area difficult to pass due to having a mine in your face everywhere you turn. Spreading them out would negate any real usefulness tbh. Unless you mean them to have an aoe damage like bombs.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jaabaa
Mines are technically already in game but there is no suitable launcher for them anymore.
They were removed from game mainly because of the lag that they caused when entering the grid.
There was also no "real" defense against them. You came out of warp and hit a load of them and then went boom.
There was also an added side effect. If you dropped mines in low sec and just left them there (i.e. forgot about them) then you might find yourself getting wasted by CONCORD because you were in high sec when someone else accidentally "found" one of your low sec mines.
So, we've had them, they weren't conducive to game play and caused a load of warp in LAG.
They are restricted too 0.0 so no CONCORD problem.
Read what is written rather than giving a standard reply to how something was implimented in the past.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Lily Sarman
Originally by: Snake Doctor
While this really IS and WAS an awesome idea, the mines caused some horribly bad lag and had to be removed.
They ended up going the way of the snowball/launchers if I recall correctly.
Perhaps if they were limited too only a few within a certain area it would reduce the lag effect.
Well the whole point of mines is to make an area difficult to pass due to having a mine in your face everywhere you turn. Spreading them out would negate any real usefulness tbh. Unless you mean them to have an aoe damage like bombs.
Yes they have AoE damage hence why I said damage radius. Reduced mine density can be offset by increase damage and trigger radius.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:49:00 -
[9]
tell you what, you keep mines, i'll take yours.
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i am a humble and inefficent ammo to dps converter |
TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:53:00 -
[10]
Gate camps don't need anymore help "defending" space. HIC's have made sure of that.
Mines caused extreme amounts of lag and ruined explorers and ninja ratters chances of surviving.
One of the big reasons CCP removed them as well as they were a completely automatic defense of a system that required no player interaction, which in the original EVE "path" was a bad idea.
Oh yea, did I mention the lag?
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lily Sarman
Yes they have AoE damage hence why I said damage radius. Reduced mine density can be offset by increase damage and trigger radius.
So in a nutshell static bombs. Bombs already cause severe lag when used on a large group of ships due to the instant aoe damage and the resultant spike in information having to be sent to each and every ship so this will probably be a no go.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 18:59:00 -
[12]
Ok fair enough. Seems lag shoots mines down. Thanks for the feedback and taking the time to explain why it wouldn't work rather than just trolling 
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.09.22 19:03:00 -
[13]
Np. Keep this thread handy though as when infiniband hits it might be viable from a lag perspective as will many many other nice but currently unworkable ideas floating about the forums. 
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Yakumo Smith
Gallente
When Darkness Falls
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Posted - 2008.09.22 21:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lily Sarman
Originally by: Jaabaa
Mines are technically already in game but there is no suitable launcher for them anymore.
They were removed from game mainly because of the lag that they caused when entering the grid.
There was also no "real" defense against them. You came out of warp and hit a load of them and then went boom.
There was also an added side effect. If you dropped mines in low sec and just left them there (i.e. forgot about them) then you might find yourself getting wasted by CONCORD because you were in high sec when someone else accidentally "found" one of your low sec mines.
So, we've had them, they weren't conducive to game play and caused a load of warp in LAG.
They are restricted too 0.0 so no CONCORD problem.
Read what is written rather than giving a standard reply to how something was implimented in the past.
Actually he was pointing out a game mechanic which would still potentially occur in your ideas. Someone blows up from your mine in 0.0 while YOU are in hi-sec on your jollies. Previously the flagging system was interpreting this as a hi-sec kill and thus bringing down the wrath of Concord.
I don't like your idea as it stands, it's too powerful a weapon to the defender. You are asking for a weapon that works on standings and can be deployed en mass to effectively lock down an area attacking enemies but leaving good guys unharmed. What is the downside to them? None so far.
Now if you convert it so that the mines are expensive (like a bomb), that they target everyone and that only a smaller amount can be deployed...it starts to look more balanced.
Add 2 classes of ships, Minelayer & Mineseeker and you have the potential for a slightly more balanced mechanic. The seeker could effectively disarm and "steal" the expensive mine if given the opportunity (thus discouraging mass spamming of empty areas or leaving mines after use).
This would create a deployable weapon that could be used on short notice to help defend an area or block an escape route...add in a delayed explosion so people have a possibility to escape if they are quick enough and you could have something.
Finish up with a "if mine deployed time is >24 hours, remove after downtime" and you could reduce the lag impact.
I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually. |
Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.23 00:13:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Actually he was pointing out a game mechanic which would still potentially occur in your ideas. Someone blows up from your mine in 0.0 while YOU are in hi-sec on your jollies. Previously the flagging system was interpreting this as a hi-sec kill and thus bringing down the wrath of Concord.
I'm sure that there is a simple way around this by making aggression in 0.0 have no bearing on highsec. Given the usual distance between highsec and 0.0 I odubt someone could attack in 0.0 and run to a 0.5
system or higher for safety within the aggression period.
Quote:
I don't like your idea as it stands, it's too powerful a weapon to the defender. You are asking for a weapon that works on standings and can be deployed en mass to effectively lock down an area attacking enemies but leaving good guys unharmed. What is the downside to them? None so far.
Well its open for adjustment and I did say I'd like some game mechanic to stop people just dumping a zillion of them around a gate which is why I mentioned a minumum distance between each mine. 25km between each mine would certainly reduce the number you could lay around a gate. Perhaps giving the mines a short lifespan under the premise that they have high energy requirements and limited cap. Say...24 hours so they could be deployed before an immenent attack but once the attacks begun any more mines will have to be placed under fire from the enemy. Thats assuming your enemy doesn't just sit and let you waste resources on making more to replace the lost ones.
Quote:
Now if you convert it so that the mines are expensive (like a bomb), that they target everyone and that only a smaller amount can be deployed...it starts to look more balanced.
Making them expensive would be a very good idea looking back on what I said above with an attacking enemy simply playing the waiting game and letting their prey waste money and resources on constantly planting bombs. I agree with you on the point of balancing it. If the mines are a danger to everyone then you'd be more careful where you would put them if it means taking a gate out of action temporarily.
Quote:
Add 2 classes of ships, Minelayer & Mineseeker and you have the potential for a slightly more balanced mechanic. The seeker could effectively disarm and "steal" the expensive mine if given the opportunity (thus discouraging mass spamming of empty areas or leaving mines after use).
Already suggested two types of ships but I prefer your idea of being able to recover the mine afterwards than simply disarming them which I suggested.
Quote:
This would create a deployable weapon that could be used on short notice to help defend an area or block an escape route...add in a delayed explosion so people have a possibility to escape if they are quick enough and you could have something.
Sounds good to me and a bit more tactical than sticking a load of mines around.
Quote:
Finish up with a "if mine deployed time is >24 hours, remove after downtime" and you could reduce the lag impact.
I'd rather the mines had a lifespan of 24 hours rather than them just dissapearing after dt because it makes them pointless as a defensive measure when enemy ships just have to log into after downtime and know that there won't be any mines on the otherside of the gate.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.23 00:14:00 -
[16]
I still have the mines BPOS XD
but yeah, they were in game....then CCP took them out.. and not gonna put them back any time soon.
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Kirra Liu
Echelon Holdings
Echelon.
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Posted - 2008.09.23 00:18:00 -
[17]
Postin in yet another mine thread.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.09.23 02:05:00 -
[18]
There are already mines currently working in the game: warp disruption bubbles. Think about it.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.09.23 02:13:00 -
[19]
I wouldnt mind seeing Mine DRONES! which if tailored right would put the amarr ahead of the gallente in terms of firepower and also it wont cause more lag than normal drone usage
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!! |
soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.09.23 02:17:00 -
[20]
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 23/09/2008 02:21:42
Originally by: Benco97
Well, you know.. we've already HAD mines in the game and they didn't really work out so well.
i posted an idea about mines way back, a few months ago
basically, mines would take up the same bandwith and drone bay space as heavy drones
you jettison them one at a time, only 1 per 45 seconds so you cant spam an entire unsurvivable mine field in half a second if you see an enemy
they also work similar to drones, you have to be IN system, within 2500km for them to work, the moment you "disconnect" leave system, dock up, whatever, the mines are deactivated and go to the same state as an abandoned drone, and you can scoop them to your drone / cargo bay just like abandoned drones, but they only stay in space for 15 minutes after they go to the "abandoned" state, then they dissapear
also, there would be a limit to how mnay mines can be placed in certai nareas
they can only be placed in low sec (for obvious reasons), i belive i said something like up to 100 mines could be deployed within a 1000 square kilometer "grid" AND they have to be a minimum of 1000meters from each other, or you could also remote detonate them from within 100km
the mines would also have to be targettable and attackable, so they CAN be cleaned up (maybe prior to a fleet battle or something) they should have about the same life as a heavy drone, and same sig radius
they have a proximity activation of i think i said 1000 meters, and have an AOE of 1000 meters, anything they hit (lets say they hit 10 ships) you would get the sec status hit as if you aggressed 10 ships)
Explosive velocity should be something like 1000 meters per/second as well
they should do about 1000 damage of a damage type (1000 EM damage for amarr mines for example)
that was basically MY idea for mines, it would prevent clutter, and make them manageable
oh, and
/hijack
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.23 02:36:00 -
[21]
I like that idea a lot Soldier. Forces players to work to maintain a mind field.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.23 02:38:00 -
[22]
Moved to Features & Ideas.
Mitnal
Community Representative
CCP Games, EVE Online
Email / Netfang |
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Ex Cruoris Libertas
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Posted - 2008.09.23 05:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lily Sarman
I'm sure there are plenty of pro's and con's to this idea that haven't occured to me and I would apprecaite some constructive critism on this idea. If you're just going to give one of those psuedo witty one liner replies then go elsewhere.
Ships
To introduce space mines there would need to be two classes of mine ships introdued. Mine hunters and mine layers. Mine Layers will have a bonus which gives a 90% CPU need reduction on the use of a Mine Deployers and Mine Hunters will have a bonus to reduce the CPU nee of Mine Defusers and Mine Scaners by 90%.
Modules
Stealth Mine Deployer - Deploys Steath mines. Stealth mine deployment time deduced by 5% per level of Stealth Mine Deployment (Required level 5 Mine deployment)
Mine scanner - Locates stealth mines. Scanning time reduced by 10% for each level of Mine Scanning
Mine Defuser - Defuses mines. Chance to succesfully defuse a mine increased by 10% per level in Mine Defusing
Mines
Firstly mines will be like POS guns in that you can set their behaviour and how they respond to players depending on standing. Essentially this means that you can decide who is free to travel past them and who will set them off. Later ships will set them off at a greater range than smaller ships. Mines will come in specific and generic damamge types with generic doing less damage.
There will two several type of mine...
Standard mine - These will come in the form of damage specific or weaker damage generic. Their T2 form does greater damage, has a greater damage radius, and a greater trigger range than T1 mines
Stealth Mines - Same as standard mines but are stealthed. As the stealth module reduces available space inside the mine and affet the sensor range they have reduced damage, damage radius and trigger range. T2 has the same improvements as the standard mines have.
Stealth detection Charge There will be an option to load mines with a stealth detection charge that reduces their trigger range, damage and damage radius but it able to detect passing stealth ships and on detonation knocks them out of stealth. Will also be set off by non-stealted ships.
Restrictions in their use
1) As mines are indiscriminate weapons their use is banned in Empire space and attempting to deploy them will result in a response from CONCORD and the Empire whose space you are in. Possible standing loss as well.
2) Mines cannot be deployed withing a minimum of 10km of one another which can be reduced to 5km (With level 5 deployment skill that reduced the distance by 1km per level) to avoid stacking of mines. This distance is awaiting review after player feedback and will probably be much greater in the region of 25km.
3) It will take some time to deploy a mine so hopefully will avoid mine spamming unless appropriate resources are dedicated too it.
Applications
1) Defensive and offensive capabilities depending on how used. Defending alliances can place these on gate into their territory to assist with camps and attacking alliances can put them at gates leading into enemy space for the same reason or for just plain harrassment. Mine Hunters can take these down but need protection to do so.
2) Makes it more difficult for stealth able ships to travel through gates and sneak around systems if there is a chance that they will be knocked out of stealth and be killed by gate camps. Yes its a stealth nerf but since these mines can be set off by non-stealthed ships sending some cannon fodder through first (Noob job :D) will clear them out the way
I still have some of the old mines, and in fact have some bpos for the old mines. If you would like some I can make you some, just pop me an eve-mail. Though you can no longer really do anything with them. They were abused as a lag generating device and that ruined the fun for everyone ;(
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notaforumalt
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.09.23 05:53:00 -
[24]
*jump into system*
*notices the 5000000 mines layed there*
*drops cyno to rep my faction bs*
*woops carrier/faction bs goes pop cause why?*
*lag*
__________________________________________________
this is my sig, and i am not an alt *hides* |
Lily Sarman
Ratio Decidendi
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Posted - 2008.09.23 15:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: notaforumalt
*jump into system*
*notices the 5000000 mines layed there*
*drops cyno to rep my faction bs*
*woops carrier/faction bs goes pop cause why?*
*lag*
Posting when you have nothing constructive to offer and clearly haven't read anything beyond the title of the thread is pretty much just trolling. Don't do it.
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Cheerfulness in the face of adversity |
Lucius Quest
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Posted - 2008.09.23 15:44:00 -
[26]
I'm not really ready to decide whether I would be pro or contra mines, but here are a few ideas that popped into my head:
instead of placing hundreds or thousands of individual mines, create mine fields that are treated as single "entities". When a player begins laying mines, he basically creates a spherical mine field area that grows depending on the amount of mines he puts into it. All other players within that area who are also laying mines would basically just be adding to the size of the "mine field entity". If two mine field entities overlap, they could also become a single entity.
The more mines that get "pumped" into the field, the bigger it becomes - but aside from the size of a mine field, the density is also important. The density value would determine the likelihood of a ship hitting a mine, also depending on the size and speed of the ship. A battleship flying through a high-density mine field would obviously be much more likely to hit a mine than a frigate flying through the same mine field. Speed should also be important, since flying slower would (in theory) allow for mines to be evaded. Standing still within a mine field should be considered to be safe - until you either move or the mine field is somehow disabled or cleared.
Every mine field should have a minimum size, say 5km¦ (cubic kilometer, though it would obviously still be spherical), and the density would be calculated by the number of mines per km¦. As an arbitrary example value let's consider 20 mines per km¦ to be a mine density of 1. This density can never be exceeded. So in order to create a minimal mine field with a density of 1, you would need at least 100 mines. Every mine added to the field above that would not increase the density but the size of the field by the appropriate value. When a ship flies through the mine field, it may begin hitting mines depending on its size, speed and the density of the field. When ships hit mines, the density of the field is reduced, while the size stays the same. Coming out of warp inside a mine field should not trigger any mines and would make the ship come to a full stop while alerting the player that they have entered a mine field.
I believe this approach would eliminate lag created by mines and also add a certain dynamic to them.
PvP-curious. |
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