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Red zeon
Caldari
Circle of Shadows
Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.09.25 06:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Red zeon on 25/09/2008 06:16:56
when is speed nerf coming to sisi? are we testing any specific more important patch now?
edit, you really cant try speed nerf in multi since there like maxium of 2 people there everytime ive logged in there
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.25 10:14:00 -
[2]
Its doubtful it will be here anytime soon or be in the same format we saw on sisi or multi considering it made virtually every cruiser sized ship and smaller a death trap along with causing a lot of other problems as well.
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NightmareX
MAFIA
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.25 11:51:00 -
[3]
I think a forum signature neft to someone here will come first.
Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity' |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:26:00 -
[4]
they need to nerf misisles first then test again
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:34:00 -
[5]
Yes. Because as we all know, missiles are so useful in PvP. So true. There is nothing wrong with missile tracking either. And lets not forget that missile damage output is much higher than turret damage output.
Yep, missiles need a nerf, alright.
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
rofflesausage
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:00:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
they need to nerf misisles first then test again
If anything, missiles need to be made more effective for PvP. Certainly the 'precision' ones which are fairly pointless in their current state.
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Piru Industrial
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Posted - 2008.09.25 21:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: rofflesausage
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
they need to nerf misisles first then test again
If anything, missiles need to be made more effective for PvP. Certainly the 'precision' ones which are fairly pointless in their current state.
i think what the poster youre refering to was saying was that missiles in thier current incarnation were overpowered towards the now slow cruisers post nano nerf.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.25 21:26:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Murina on 25/09/2008 21:27:43
Originally by: rofflesausage
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
they need to nerf misisles first then test again
If anything, missiles need to be made more effective for PvP. Certainly the 'precision' ones which are fairly pointless in their current state.
Missiles and nano are mostly fine its those that use them's attitude to pvp that needs adjusting.
Here is a few tips:-
Player controlled ships are not NPC ships and will not (and should not) sit still so you can shoot them, so try tackling and webbing ships if you wanna kill them. So bring tackle ppl and its a good idea to have ships to defend the tacklers (logistics and ewar) depending on the size of the gang you are fighting.
Gunnery ships have tracking issues hitting fast ship as well and the shots they fire before a ship is tackled are wasted, while all the missiles in flight will hit as soon as the target is slowed (hey look how good missiles are in pvp if you use them correctly and do not expect pvp to be like pve ). So missile ships (ok all ships but missile ships as well) should continuously fire on a target even before it is tackled.
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Grim Vandal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.09.25 23:01:00 -
[9]
Those of you who dont grasp that missiles need to be nerfed if you want to "balance" speed are nuts ... honestly I would call you guys far worse, what a shame that it's not worth a forum ban 
So again EVE cant handle fast ships because of Destiny. Due to that ship speed will get reduced and due to that missiles need to be nerfed.
If you look at it from the other side this is actually a missile boost. And again if you dont grasp that you are a fool.
Greetings Grim |
Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.25 23:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
If you look at it from the other side this is actually a missile boost. And again if you dont grasp that you are a fool.
It's a missile boost, alright... but not the right one. Missiles are FAR inferior to turrets, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Turrets provide better DPS, more options for range, and... oh, wrecking hits. Just because a missile can hit a target for more damage now does not make them overpowered.
Torps aside, 30% increase of garbage DPS is still garbage DPS. If you don't grasp that you are a fool.
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.26 00:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Grim Vandal
If you look at it from the other side this is actually a missile boost. And again if you dont grasp that you are a fool.
It's a missile boost, alright... but not the right one. Missiles are FAR inferior to turrets, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Turrets provide better DPS, more options for range, and... oh, wrecking hits. Just because a missile can hit a target for more damage now does not make them overpowered.
Torps aside, 30% increase of garbage DPS is still garbage DPS. If you don't grasp that you are a fool.
Missiles may or may not have inferior DPS, that's not the issue.
The issue with missiles in the system that was tested until recently is that you cannot avoid them, you cannot meaningfully reduce damage from them (except by speed - an invalid choice now), and that missiles hit things significantly below their own size category for quite a bit of damage.
People in Ravens were slaughtering inties with cruise missiles, irrespective of transveral. That's something no other battleship sized (ie turret) weapon system can manage.
The counter argument from Caldari fans has always been "But cruise missiles aren't anti-battleship weapons, torps are. Cruise is meant to hit small stuff". That's a load of *******s if you ask me.
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Grim Vandal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.09.26 01:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vengal Seyhan
Missiles may or may not have inferior DPS, that's not the issue.
The issue with missiles in the system that was tested until recently is that you cannot avoid them, you cannot meaningfully reduce damage from them (except by speed - an invalid choice now), and that missiles hit things significantly below their own size category for quite a bit of damage.
People in Ravens were slaughtering inties with cruise missiles, irrespective of transveral. That's something no other battleship sized (ie turret) weapon system can manage.
The counter argument from Caldari fans has always been "But cruise missiles aren't anti-battleship weapons, torps are. Cruise is meant to hit small stuff". That's a load of *******s if you ask me.
see ... this person got it right.
is it really that hard to understand that ???
Greetings Grim |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.09.26 05:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Torps aside, 30% increase of garbage DPS is still garbage DPS. If you don't grasp that you are a fool.
Torps are no. 1 in raw DPS.
Torps are easy to train - no tree.
Torps are guided.
Torps have selectable dmg type - learn to hit weak resists.
Javelin torps are precision missiles in disguise with the smaller exp. velocity than sig. radius of any large gun.
Learn to fit your ships for PvP, learn to use your ships properly.... That is all what missile 'issue' is about.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kepakh
Torps are guided.
not sure what you mean with this, but they are not affected by "guided missile precision"
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You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Grim Vandal
If you look at it from the other side this is actually a missile boost. And again if you dont grasp that you are a fool.
It's a missile boost, alright... but not the right one. Missiles are FAR inferior to turrets, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Turrets provide better DPS, more options for range, and... oh, wrecking hits. Just because a missile can hit a target for more damage now does not make them overpowered.
Torps aside, 30% increase of garbage DPS is still garbage DPS. If you don't grasp that you are a fool.
Interesting... why is that typhoons mount torps + med guns instead of large ACs and heavy missiles? And why raven is 2nd-3rd most damaging BS (in sensible fit) after mega and geddon (actually its close call with geddon).
Why is HAM cerb or sacri 3rd most damaging HAC after deimos and zealot (and ishtar if it uses med blasters - but no ishtar uses em anyways)? Also why most damage on rapiers comes from launchers/drones not guns?
Hint: learn strong points/weaknessess of all weapon types and dont comment on them until you do. Because you really have no idea how to pvp.
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 00:14:00 -
[16]
Some people are completely confused about the 'overpowering' that happens when speeds drop. They clearly didn't bother to try it out for longer than their first mistake when it was on Sisi.
Missiles still suck, just a lot less. Doing 20damage instead of 0 is still not equivalent to a hit from a gun.
Personally, I'm maxing out Amarr skills now, they are going to so bring the pain now. They were the only race I really got owned by during the speed rebalance tests.
About time Amarr was good again.
As for a time line of speed rebalance, forget about it till middle of next year even *if* there is build everyone agrees on.
Far more serious issues need to be resolved long before this sort of monkey business (I need the extra time to max Las0rs so don't rush CCP) :0
Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it." |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 00:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Spurty
Some people are completely confused about the 'overpowering' that happens when speeds drop. They clearly didn't bother to try it out for longer than their first mistake when it was on Sisi.
Missiles still suck, just a lot less. Doing 20damage instead of 0 is still not equivalent to a hit from a gun.
If thats raven vs ceptor it means you dont need other battleships in fleet period. You know that 10 ravens will instapop most ceptors doing "only 20dmg per missile"?
And like i said: most fun i had was using sacri with really bad missile skills (twas before Sisi got TQ skills) to kill all ceptors. Precission light just obliterated them.
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 00:30:00 -
[18]
it was, AB inty vs torp raven, tank it all day.
MDW = death trap, even vs a non-missile ship.
Zealots popped me more efficiently than raven (no one flew a cerb for some reason), followed by drone boats that really hurt a lot and faster lol
Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it." |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.09.27 11:48:00 -
[19]
It seems CCP has no idea where to go with the changes. They could have already implemented the adjustments like polycarb nerf (to slightly less than nanofibers) and ship speed adjustment and implant stacking/nerf.
It would not break anything but allow market to adjust slowly instead of large shock and allow people to get back feel for how their ship handles.
It really seems they have not settled even on those small tweaks that are largely independed of the core of the planned speed overhaul.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Forge Lag
It seems CCP has no idea where to go with the changes. They could have already implemented the adjustments like polycarb nerf (to slightly less than nanofibers) and ship speed adjustment and implant stacking/nerf.
Of those 3 snake nerf and poly nerf is ok
Ship speed adjustment is no ok without lots of testing.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.28 09:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Spurty
it was, AB inty vs torp raven, tank it all day.
MDW = death trap, even vs a non-missile ship.
Zealots popped me more efficiently than raven (no one flew a cerb for some reason), followed by drone boats that really hurt a lot and faster lol
ab inty curently on tranq will tank turet bs all day, so learn to pvp.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 11:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
Originally by: Spurty
it was, AB inty vs torp raven, tank it all day.
MDW = death trap, even vs a non-missile ship.
Zealots popped me more efficiently than raven (no one flew a cerb for some reason), followed by drone boats that really hurt a lot and faster lol
ab inty curently on tranq will tank turet bs all day, so learn to pvp.
Question is - how long will it take for AB inty to close gap of 100km to actually tackle something? And how fast will zealots/eagles/cerbs kill it at this distance? :)
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Grim Vandal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.09.28 13:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spurty
it was, AB inty vs torp raven, tank it all day.
MDW = death trap, even vs a non-missile ship.
Now try to fit a cruiser with AB instead of mwd against cruise missiles and precision torps ... interesting hmmm?
I hate mwds but ABs are just ****ed up as well. (only against missiles)
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.28 22:57:00 -
[24]
well torps will kill frigs faster than autocanons, intresting isnt it?:D
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.29 08:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Originally by: Spurty
it was, AB inty vs torp raven, tank it all day.
MDW = death trap, even vs a non-missile ship.
Now try to fit a cruiser with AB instead of mwd against cruise missiles and precision torps ... interesting hmmm?
I hate mwds but ABs are just ****ed up as well. (only against missiles)
cruise misiels have signature of cruiser weapons
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San Rintu
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:36:00 -
[26]
As both a missile user and a straight out nanophag I think I am pretty qualified to answer this in a non 'foundationless' way that many seem to derive their arguments upon Eve-O forums.
On the current tranquility build, missiles tend to take a back seat to their gunnery counterparts under most circumstances. In fact T1 and Faction missiles seem to perform amicably in most siuations.
The T2 counterparts (Other than Javelin which rock) are for any short term, absolutely useless. Rage counterparts have odd tracking which can leave several torps orbiting a battleship attempting to do a dance.
As for precision missiles, they are essentially unused due to the over balancing they got when ludicrous speed kicked off.
On the first alpha of the nano-nerf, precision missiles did a full u-turn. Two Cerberus could melt almost any nanoship in under a minute which for all intensive purposes is overpowered. Going from 1-10 damage a hit to 180 is a jump that makes people cry, some middle ground is no doubt needed.
I think the key issue is that precisions loaded into a non bonus ship still hit hard on the nano nerf patch. The Cerberus and Drake/NH get the yummy velocity bonus that is essentially there to give them the range that other Battlecruisers and HAC's lack. It's this bonus that is messing the nanoships up.
If that bonus was switched to a flight time one perchance, you would still end up with the same ship as far as range and damage goes just not reducing all ships trying to speed tank to utter dust.
Missiles certainly need a gentle rebalance. Precisions in their current state are obsolete on Tranquility and win Eve on Multiplicity. I'm interested to see what CCP have on the cooker regarding new physics/calculations for them which I am sure I have seen mentioned before.
I would very much like to see the damage T2 missiles of both classes actually become worthwhile over faction. Hail, Conflag and Void is not exactly uber but it brings more to the table than the damage missiles.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.29 13:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: San Rintu
I would very much like to see the damage T2 missiles of both classes actually become worthwhile over faction. Hail, Conflag and Void is not exactly uber but it brings more to the table than the damage missiles.
Actually conflag and void are obsolete ammo with navy ones being all around. Hail is useful in VERY RARE ocassions, still at least 5x more than void/conflag.
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The Vixen
Gallente
DataPipe Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.30 15:09:00 -
[28]
A very interesting topic. Is it safe to assume that the speed changes wont move to Tranq until the missile problem is resolved in some way?
Or is the speed problem going to be addressed first and then the effects? |
Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:24:00 -
[29]
The problems are many with the speed rebalance.
Signature sizes of ships and MWDs = mostly broken making missiles hit for more damage than they should when you average out other weapon systems.
T2 ammo is terrible with all the nerfs applied, remove all nerfs on T2 and just have at it!!
We want more DPSeses.
Also, whenever I am able to get onto Sisi or Multi, they are offline these days with patch frenzies :-/
Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it." |
SniperWo1f
Omega Enterprises
0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.10.01 00:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Torps aside, 30% increase of garbage DPS is still garbage DPS. If you don't grasp that you are a fool.
Torps are no. 1 in raw DPS. wrong a 3x bc max skill rage torp raven does 990dps 3xmagstab neutron2 hype deos 1094Torps are easy to train - no tree.
Torps are guided. wrong cruise are guided
Torps have selectable dmg type - learn to hit weak resists.
Javelin torps are precision missiles in disguise with the smaller exp. velocity than sig. radius of any large gun.
Learn to fit your ships for PvP, learn to use your ships properly.... That is all what missile 'issue' is about.
you should try your own advice
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