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DubanFP
Caldari
Kylia Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:44:00 -
[31]
Edited by: DubanFP on 26/09/2008 11:45:05
 Originally by: Rajere
Quote:
Compare it to the harbinger now.
The Drake is by far the best battlecruiser in game. It doesn't have the best DPS but it's DPS is comparable, while it's EHP is atleast twice if not 3x as good as the battlecruisers which can out DPS it.
What drake are you flying? 200-300, 4-500 if you scrap the super-tank, is in no way comparible to my 840 DPS 1600mm Plated Hurricane. I eat drakes for breakfast. Even those annoying no-tackle pure tank variety.
P.S. I killed a well fit Onyx with my hurricane just yesterday and I screwed up the battle too.
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"Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely outclassed |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:46:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/09/2008 11:46:53
Originally by: DubanFP
What drake are you flying? 200-300, 4-500 if you scrap the super-tank, is in no way comparible to my 840 DPS 1600mm Plated Hurricane. I eat drakes for breakfast. Even those annoying no-tackle pure tank variety.
If I found my Drake doing "4-500 DPS" I'd self-destruct it then and there.
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DubanFP
Caldari
Kylia Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:55:00 -
[33]
Edited by: DubanFP on 26/09/2008 11:58:14
Originally by: Gypsio III
If I found my Drake doing "4-500 DPS" I'd self-destruct it then and there.
Uhhhh a full gank setup can get 4-500 DPS. Of course you have to more or less give up the tank that makes it a decent ship, the tank. Not to mention in order to get a half decent tank you have to do crap DPS, ~200DPS, and give up on tackling entirely.
My hurricane can match any no-tackle drake in combat and still tackle. Drake is not the best because in order to have it tank you have to give up everything that makes a good PVP ship good. Damage and tackling.
The hurricane just takes a little more to pilot right but it can do what the Drake can't.
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"Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely outclassed |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:02:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/09/2008 12:12:51
Actually my Drakes do mid-600 DPS. And they have vastly more EHP than any Hurricane, and (and this is the really funny bit) they're faster and more agile than a plated, trimarked Hurricane.
Knowledge of PVP fits for Drakes has become fairly common these days, I'm surprised that you don't realise its capabilities. The Hurricane simply can't compete on a 1v1 basis. It does have advantages in being able to hit fast stuff and the ability to do more raw DPS though, which is useful in gang gank fits, although optimal/tracking issues means that it may not translate into real damage as easily.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:05:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/09/2008 12:05:39
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 26/09/2008 11:45:05
Originally by: Rajere
Quote:
Compare it to the harbinger now.
The Drake is by far the best battlecruiser in game. It doesn't have the best DPS but it's DPS is comparable, while it's EHP is atleast twice if not 3x as good as the battlecruisers which can out DPS it.
What drake are you flying? 200-300, 4-500 if you scrap the super-tank, is in no way comparible to my 840 DPS 1600mm Plated Hurricane. I eat drakes for breakfast. Even those annoying no-tackle pure tank variety.
P.S. I killed a well fit Onyx with my hurricane just yesterday and I screwed up the battle too.
A Drake with faction HAMs does somewhere around 610 DPS sans implants, or 670 with implants.
A Hurricane, with 220s + HAMs (enabling you to partially patch up your range issues by fitting 3x falloff rigs) does, with Hail M, about 779 sans implants and 840 DPS with implants. With RF EMP (a much more realistic ammo type for most engagements), it translates into 721 DPS sans implants and 778 DPS with implants. A max damage 425mm setup can push 808 implanted RF EMP DPS, or even 875 implanted Hail DPS (although, you're going to have fun firing Hail out of 425s without dual webs) and requires a grid implant to fit (or drop damage by fitting 'arby' HAMs).
All is done assuming 5%/5% implants which are expensive (5%/3% are not so much). And you still do not posses any chance of beating a similarly skilled/implanted Drake unless you have a slave set (which the Drake can't really match with anything). Also, to add insult to injury, Drake if faster and more agile.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Gneez, are you just trolling?
honest question
BTW onyxs and broadswords are shield tanks so start bringing out your leipnir and l0rpion to take them out 
I dont know, I dont remember making this thread last night but I was pretty delirious after 22 hours without sleep so I might have been, I may have meant to whine about falcons and passive shield tanks but went on a monologue about hictors instead
Originally by: Sokratesz
CCP, just nerf hitpoints k? About half of what we have now will do fine.
thats a good idea, slaves / passive shield tanks online sucks
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/09/2008 12:04:24
Actually my Drakes do mid-600 DPS. And they have vastly more EHP than any Hurricane, and (and this is the really funny bit) they're faster and more agile than a plated, trimarked Hurricane.
Knowledge of PVP fits for Drakes has become fairly common these days, I'm surprised that you don't realise its capabilities. The Hurricane simply can't compete.
one of those drakes pwnt my hurricane in double quick time the other day, they are nasty stuff, makes me want to train t2 hams.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:10:00 -
[37]
Hmm, just playing with Hurricane fits a bit more, a 425/HAM fit with 4 gyros can reach past 900 DPS - albeit with a terrible optimal. And with capless weapons and tank, there's room for a second web. A complete glass cannon, but a viable fit as a gang gank ship.
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Rajere
No Trademark
Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:34:00 -
[38]
eh doesn't matter, you can push the extremes in EFT all you want, realistically a hurricane does 700-800 DPS with max/very high skills before implants, but it only does that once it gets on top of its target and gets it webbed. using Barrage your DPS takes a hit in EFT and then takes a bigger hit in game, doing about 350 DPS until you're closer than Optimal+ half your falloff. You can sacrifice rigs to increase you're effective DPS by fitting range rigs over Tank.
Falloff rigs are better than locus for projectiles, simply because 7.5% of 15km (half of the 15% falloff you gain you can deal damage in effectively) is greater than 15% of 3km. That only puts you at 3+11.4km for effective DPS (80-85% of EFT DPS), and falloff drops off sharply past that.
The Drake does about 80% of the Hurricane's EFT DPS while the hurricane has 50% of the drakes EHP, If you give up your tank rigs to actually get approach doing your EFT DPS, the hurricane has 35-40% of the Drakes EHP.
The drake is simply the best battlecruiser in game atm.
How to Fail at Eve
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Hmm, just playing with Hurricane fits a bit more, a 425/HAM fit with 4 gyros can reach past 900 DPS - albeit with a terrible optimal. And with capless weapons and tank, there's room for a second web. A complete glass cannon, but a viable fit as a gang gank ship.
You can comfortably use a quad-MFS Myrmidon which doesn't have to use the horribly gimped T2 high damage ammo and has better range/buffer then Hail cane to achieve 860-ish DPS, or a 850 DPS quad HS Harbringer, or, cheaper yet, quad MFS shield buffer Brutix (better EHP, better range again, doesn't have to use gimped T2 ammo).
It's not such a awesome ship for the role, really, and relies solely on Hail M to preform which makes it shorter range the any blasterboat with horrible tracking to boot.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Gimpb
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:36:00 -
[40]
So hictors are a tough tackler you say? That's kinda the point.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:52:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/09/2008 12:53:35
Originally by: Rajere
eh doesn't matter, you can push the extremes in EFT all you want, realistically a hurricane does 700-800 DPS with max/very high skills before implants, but it only does that once it gets on top of its target and gets it webbed. using Barrage your DPS takes a hit in EFT and then takes a bigger hit in game, doing about 350 DPS until you're closer than Optimal+ half your falloff. You can sacrifice rigs to increase you're effective DPS by fitting range rigs over Tank.
Fitting tank rigs on a armour buffer Hurricane is a horrible waste of ISK (also, really murders your speed, so only the Harbringer and its flying style really profits there). Only shield resist rigs are sensible price-wise for a buffertank BC. All armour rigs are in the 15+M price range, so it means more then doubling the loss cost over a, say, falloff/locus rigged ship.
The appeal of triple-falloff rigging is that it enables you to fight in webrange very well with RF EMP (forcing your DPS down naturally), or fire Barrage at 20km ranges with so-so precision (22-23km falloff) which is OK for versatility for killing interceptors and driving off nanos.
That said, if you want instant high tracking DPS at range, locus rigged FMP + plate Harbringer realistically does nearly the same DPS as a Hurricane short range (losing only a bit really) while significantly outdamaging it up to 28-29 km.
If you want to fly a Hurricane and stick at 20-25km, then you're either looking at a arty fit (which does have considerable disadvantages) or buying a Harbringer.
The appeal of a Hurricane is excellent up close gank while having some versatility by switching to Barrage M and driving off fast ships. The only things you get over a Harbringer is marginally better performance up close, slightly better mobility and the 'capless, therefore neut immune' factor (Harbringer has to devote a slot if it wants to be immune to neuts, even though it can fire all its guns very well without a actual cap booster).
Also, it looks good. In fact, the good looks go so far they mitigate the fact it really isn't 'up there' with the rest.
Point is:
Drake is undeniably the king of short range BCs when it comes to the EHP/damage combination (albeit, with more focus on EHP rather then gank), and it has the versatility to hit 80km (a very significant option) off with Javelin HAMs. For this, it pays in its lack of ability to defend from interceptors (even if sacrificing a bit of the gank by fitting Warrior IIs, it cannot defend from ceptors which could outrace Warrior IIs but could not outrace the tracking of medium guns (which would be ceptors in the 6-8km/s bracket)).
Harbringer is the king when it comes 5-28km BC combat (a very popular range bracket).
Myrmidon is the king of <3km BC combat (3x MFS neutron myrms with dual LSE buffer, no other fit is worth flying imo).
Hurricane is good for close range (<5km) performance while having versatility to engage up to 24km at inferior performance.
Both Hurricane and Harbringer, for low-sec pilots, can be boosted by sticking in some 700-800M worth of implants to get a bit more EHP, although they'll still always fail in the EHP department to a Drake.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:07:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Harbringer is the king when it comes 5-28km BC combat (a very popular range bracket).
Myrmidon is the king of <3km BC combat (3x MFS neutron myrms with dual LSE buffer, no other fit is worth flying imo).
Hurricane is good for close range (<5km) performance while having versatility to engage up to 24km at inferior performance.
Both Hurricane and Harbringer, for low-sec pilots, can be boosted by sticking in some 700-800M worth of implants to get a bit more EHP, although they'll still always fail in the EHP department to a Drake.
Top post. 
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Rajere
No Trademark
Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:44:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Rajere on 26/09/2008 13:45:52
Eh i'm not seeing it with the Myrm. Faction Antimatter and Heavy Neutron IIs (incidently, why not pulse? the ship is turret neutral), fit to your specifications, all level 5, max EFT DPS drone layout, etc, it's coming up just about equal to my Hurricane build, slightly less DPS, slightly more EHP. (796DPS vs 809, 53k EHP vs 47kEHP) both using cheap shield rigs, 2 LSE tank, etc. I did have to guess what you put in the last 2 lows, but seeing as the build needed grid and it's a shield tank, I assumed 2x PDS II's. Incidently, that's the only reason why it has more EHP, I use 2x ODs instead on the cane. MWD speed, the Myrm is 1326 with gang bonus, My cane is 2200, it's designed to get into hail range asap and stay there til 1 of us dies, me or the target.
Only thing the myrm has is +1 mid for point/web where as my hurricane only has web (it's a gang ship).
Yes the hurricane suffers from being short range, but blasters also suffer from the exact same problems. Medium projectiles aren't as totally fubar'd as large, and if you choose to do so the Hurricane deals more DPS with the same EHP as the myrm while also being more agile and having more speed to close range. If either ship get's webbed out of range of the target, the Hurricane is not only more likely to escape the web's due to its manueverability but he can also switch to Barrage and still deal some DPS while the Myrm has to rely solely on his drones. Null cannot compare to barrage when you absolutely must have range to deal damage, regardless of the impact falloff will have on your damage (similiar impact as the slow speed on those Ogre IIs of the myrm closing range).
For close range DPS BC, if you were to claim anything trumps the Cane, it would be the Brutix, who has less EHP but more DPS. Neither the harb nor the Myrm can outdps it in it's kill zone, and they both have equivalent EHP tanks. If range is a factor, and there's no denying that it is in larger gangs, The harbinger begins to shine, but the hurricane will always be on the top or near the bottom on the killmails, depending on what the circumstances and ranges at the start of the fight. It does not finish in second.
How to Fail at Eve
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Omarvelous
Caldari
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:55:00 -
[44]
Just make the Sensor damp mod transform into a damage augmentation mod. Arazu/Lachesis engages augmentation mod - target's resistances are cut by 10-20-30%.
Wheeeee ganking!
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Mr Ignitious
Gallente
R.E.C.O.N.
A.X.I.S
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:20:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 26/09/2008 15:20:58
Originally by: Omarvelous
Just make the Sensor damp mod transform into a damage augmentation mod. Arazu/Lachesis engages augmentation mod - target's resistances are cut by 10-20-30%.
Wheeeee ganking!
nope, my arazu is a sexy falcon killer, i just want a RSD strength bonus buff, then i shall be happy =)
edit: oh yah, hics, as ppl said its the passive shields that are lame. Poor ole' phobos, and less poor but still not woopee devoter are meh... =( buff active tanking!
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
In your first fitting I could easily replace the web for my EWAR of choice. In your second it is impossible. That is what I meant.
Then what you meant is irrelevant. You either fit the Drake completely sans a tank and go all out ewar, you fit it for buffer, or you fit it for tank. You don't **** around with your ship and mangle it's capabilities by making it do half of this and half of that.
Next you'll tell me to fit HAMs *AND* HML on the same Drake FFS - the ideas are very similar.
Quote:
You are giving up the possibility to use anything other than tank, damage and your single point.
I do believe I mentioned this, but please remember it's entirely possible to score a (regen) better tank than any other BC and have all the advantages of being buffer tanked.
Quote:
1) You are sacrificing damage 76% means you need 31.5% more time to kill the same target if it is completely passive buffer. If it is active or passive regen it is much much worse.
Regen tanked Drakes are always gang ships. Most of them fulfill the "bait" role in the gang - and there is no ship in the game that can bait like the passive Drake.
Out of curiosity, can you come up with *ANY* half-way reasonable active tanking Drake that can beat it? I thought not.
Quote:
2) You are sacrificing tackling capacity as you can't hold your targets in place. Most ships that can't fight you will simply run from you, and you won't be able to do a thing about it.
You forget that I have tons of experience flying this ship. I've successfully tanked and tackled many, many things in it... even without a web.
Quote:
3) You are sacrificing your ability to run if you need to, or to reach a gate in case of need.
Not as much as you think. You're spending alot of time harping on "omg you don't have a MWD". That's because it simply isn't necessary for the places you put that Drake... and for you to say those places don't exist is foolish. :)
Quote:
Basically it is a brick without the capacity to keep its target in place, without the capacity to hit smaller things and fast things, and without the damage to break the tank of bigger ships. It is a fair trade off for its great capacity to absorb damage.
No, it is not a fair tradeoff.
Quote:
Oh and as you are using ACTIVE hardeners, if you are neuted your tank is severelly compromised and goes to something around 290 DPS.
Wow Etho... you're not one of those total tards that believes that you have to have a totally capless tank are you?
Quote:
Oh, is it? Elaborate, please.
Fit a MWD? It doesn't affect the tank that much... I've done it in anti-nano situations.
Quote:
But it has more to do with projectile problems than anything else.
Not really.
Quote:
Compare it to the harbinger now.
Harby's good, but it's not that good.
Quote:
It does not. As long as you have someone to do it for you. That is why the passive drake is a specialist setup.
TBQFH, most successful ships these days are setup as specialist ships - they do one thing and they do it well.
As an example, people regularly call the Nano Ishtar "overpowered". It does two things: nano, and damage. Oh noes, but it isn't fitting a huge tank and ewar and and and and like you're asking for.
IT IS STILL OVERPOWERED (and yes, I fly it too).
-Liang
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sokratesz
They could unroll the past two HP increases for one..and decrease the raw HP bonuses that extender and plates give. Would make eve alot more interesting, because the HP buffs only made it worse.
R.I.P. Caldari CS?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: BiggestT
Dunno Liang,
i wldnt excactly say passive tnaking is overpowered.
Look at the nighthawk, nerfing passive tnaking wld make it even worse..
While balanced ships like the vulture wld get hit hard
If you don't think passive tanking is overpowered, then you're a fool. And I don't just mean passive shield tanking (regen based) - but hitpoint tanking in general. Things have gotten so bad that the standard recommendation is simply to ignore active tanking bonuses and fit plates and hitpoints anyway.
Additionally, I challenge you to come up with active shield tanked fits that are reasonable substitutions for passive (regen) fits. Hint: You can't, because they don't really exist shy of crystals and absurdly expensive mods.
TBQFH (please bear in mind that I have a character with 30M+ 100% caldari dedicated SP and I've scored hundreds of solo kills in my Drake), I'd be perfectly fine with stack nerfing shield recharge rate if they boosted the powergrid for the appropriate ships.
Think about it and you'll see that I'm undeniably right on this one. :-/
-Liang
Ouch Liang, a tad harsh :P
Imo passive tnaking is not overpowered, more so that active tanking is underpowered
As I said before, the already borderline Caldari CS would be nerfed to extinction and then some if passive tanking was given the boot.
What should be changed is when every ship fits a buffer tank, which some are definately not designed for..
So its not really passive tanking at all, more buffer tanking..
Awesome EVE history
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:04:00 -
[48]
Liang, i think (though you seem experienced in it, it must be quite good, so id say it matters little)
That instead of spr, pds may fair you better. In a bait role, recharge will matter little, as any decent gang will always have the dps to eventually break you, its rare youll perma-tank.
PDS give you 10% more shields (if you put 2 in inplace of spr) which is quite alot of hp considering the large base affecting the multiplier.
Fit core defense field extender rigs (dunno if you did..) and youll get an even bigger buffer.
As bait, your gang should be right behind you, so perma-tanking shldnt be the aim, rather wanting a huge buffer to tank high alpha would be imo...
Also, I find it strange that your bait-fit has no point? Wouldnt they just run when they see local spike?
Sorry if it was addressed earlier..
Awesome EVE history
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:06:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Gneeznow
It seems to me that hictors are the new drakes in low sec these days, everywhere I go there is onyx's and broadsword's, imho these ships are broken in low sec, they can completely laugh off the damage of sentries + whatever I'm flying, even in a geddon or mega with sentries on my side, they can tank and jump out, in fact seems I'm seeing a repeating trend A LOT lately of hictors on the gate + falcons 200km off, hic's laugh off the sentry damage, falcons fight outside sentry range.
How would it be different if it was a Vulture?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: BiggestT
Ouch Liang, a tad harsh :P
Imo passive tnaking is not overpowered, more so that active tanking is underpowered
As I said before, the already borderline Caldari CS would be nerfed to extinction and then some if passive tanking was given the boot.
The NH (which is the ship you're largely concerned about) needs a grid boost anyway, and this would largely fix the problem.
Quote:
What should be changed is when every ship fits a buffer tank, which some are definately not designed for..
So its not really passive tanking at all, more buffer tanking..
The problem is that ships which are not designed for buffer tanks fit them at the cost of their bonused modules, or the ships all but outright suck. Buffer tanking is absurdly powerful - and passive shield tanking (going for regen here) gives you all the advantages of both worlds - absurd tank and absurd hitpoints.
-Liang
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: BiggestT
Ouch Liang, a tad harsh :P
Imo passive tnaking is not overpowered, more so that active tanking is underpowered
As I said before, the already borderline Caldari CS would be nerfed to extinction and then some if passive tanking was given the boot.
The NH (which is the ship you're largely concerned about) needs a grid boost anyway, and this would largely fix the problem.
Quote:
What should be changed is when every ship fits a buffer tank, which some are definately not designed for..
So its not really passive tanking at all, more buffer tanking..
The problem is that ships which are not designed for buffer tanks fit them at the cost of their bonused modules, or the ships all but outright suck. Buffer tanking is absurdly powerful - and passive shield tanking (going for regen here) gives you all the advantages of both worlds - absurd tank and absurd hitpoints.
-Liang
wtb focus fire nerf :(
Awesome EVE history
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:14:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 17:16:19
Originally by: BiggestT
Liang, i think (though you seem experienced in it, it must be quite good, so id say it matters little)
That instead of spr, pds may fair you better. In a bait role, recharge will matter little, as any decent gang will always have the dps to eventually break you, its rare youll perma-tank.
PDS give you 10% more shields (if you put 2 in inplace of spr) which is quite alot of hp considering the large base affecting the multiplier.
Fit core defense field extender rigs (dunno if you did..) and youll get an even bigger buffer.
As bait, your gang should be right behind you, so perma-tanking shldnt be the aim, rather wanting a huge buffer to tank high alpha would be imo...
Also, I find it strange that your bait-fit has no point? Wouldnt they just run when they see local spike?
Sorry if it was addressed earlier..
It did have a point, and frequently a point is really all you need.
-Liang
Ed: Removed pasting artifact
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:20:00 -
[53]
/me immediattley throws his bong out.
Doh, soz didnt see that liang -.-
Awesome EVE history
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supr3m3justic3
Caldari
ACE'S OVER 8'S
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:22:00 -
[54]
I agree that a good BS can easily wipe a HIC out...
we were roaming around last night and we had a blasterthon with us.....just so happens we run into a gang...they had a devoter....the blasterthon solo killed it while were took down a vaga and a cerb.....so dont say a BS cant...because i watched one get melted to scrap last night!!
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Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:54:00 -
[55]
Originally by: supr3m3justic3
I agree that a good BS can easily wipe a HIC out...
we were roaming around last night and we had a blasterthon with us.....just so happens we run into a gang...they had a devoter....the blasterthon solo killed it while were took down a vaga and a cerb.....so dont say a BS cant...because i watched one get melted to scrap last night!!
devoter yea, but the passive shield tank hics and drakes are often a different story, I've had a drake tank my alt's blaster dominix until i ran out of cap charges and had to bail, my alt had bs 5 and t2 heavies and t2 electron blasters.
I've had broadsword's laugh off the damage from me in a geddon and I have t2 mega pulse + t2 heavies, I've had onyx's tank my alt in a gank mega, neutrons and t2 heavies.
this stuff is broken, passive shield tanks are making pvp less and less risky, when you can hide behind 20k shields that recharges so fast its like a perma shield booster its overpowered, same goes for brick hp tanks on bs's when coupled with slaves :-(
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:55:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 26/09/2008 17:56:19
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Then what you meant is irrelevant. You either fit the Drake completely sans a tank and go all out ewar, you fit it for buffer, or you fit it for tank. You don't **** around with your ship and mangle it's capabilities by making it do half of this and half of that.
No. You do **** around with your ship to make it adequate to the task you intend to execute with it. A MWD, tackle and Painter setup with precision heavies or even assault launchers is useful in many situations.
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I do believe I mentioned this, but please remember it's entirely possible to score a (regen) better tank than any other BC and have all the advantages of being buffer tanked.
Well, it is possible to score a damage better than any other BC is a harbinger and still score a buffer tank. Your point being?
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Regen tanked Drakes are always gang ships. Most of them fulfill the "bait" role in the gang - and there is no ship in the game that can bait like the passive Drake.
In gangs damage is better than regen. The passive drake tank is an unstable equilibrium tank. It only existes during a small fraction of its shield HP. If faced with multiple ships its regen is severelly hinderd. Most of its defence becomes its EHP, which is not much better than other BCs can achieve especially considering its subpar damage.
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Out of curiosity, can you come up with *ANY* half-way reasonable active tanking Drake that can beat it? I thought not.
No I can't. The problem here is lack of damage. Your own buffer fitting can easily beat your passive regen fitting as long as you have 2 or more ships in each side though.
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You forget that I have tons of experience flying this ship. I've successfully tanked and tackled many, many things in it... even without a web.
I couldn't care less about your experience. A horse is still a horse, no matter how many times you mount on it. Don't try to use "I'm holier than thou" arguments with me. Argue with me objectively or not at all.
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Not as much as you think. You're spending alot of time harping on "omg you don't have a MWD". That's because it simply isn't necessary for the places you put that Drake... and for you to say those places don't exist is foolish. :)
It doesn't matter that there ARE situations where speed is irrelevant. In a LOT of others speed is.
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No, it is not a fair tradeoff.
Good argument. Oh wait. You have none.
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Wow Etho... you're not one of those total tards that believes that you have to have a totally capless tank are you?
No, for missions IFs are great, actually the best, in passive drakes. For pvp, on the other hand, you are screwed as soon as you meet your first neut oponent. Because the ONLY thing you have, regen, is cut in half.
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Fit a MWD? It doesn't affect the tank that much... I've done it in anti-nano situations.
It doesn't? lol. You will have to take at elast one LSE. That affects BOTH your regen and EHP a lot...
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Not really.
Yes, really.
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Harby's good, but it's not that good.
No actually it is even better than that. Especially in gangs which are mandatory for your drake.
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TBQFH, most successful ships these days are setup as specialist ships - they do one thing and they do it well.
And most horribly failed gangs are full of specialist ships and fall apart when one important task can't be performed because the specialist has died...
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As an example, people regularly call the Nano Ishtar "overpowered". It does two things: nano, and damage. Oh noes, but it isn't fitting a huge tank and ewar and and and and like you're asking for.
IT IS STILL OVERPOWERED (and yes, I fly it too).
A single Huggin can kill a nano-Ishtar anytime. And nobody says the huggin is OP.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
No. You do **** around with your ship to make it adequate to the task you intend to execute with it. A MWD, tackle and Painter setup with precision heavies or even assault launchers is useful in many situations.
TBQFH, if the ship is going fast enough to precision lights (assault launcher) you don't need the painter. The rest of your arguments are of a similar vain.
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In gangs damage is better than regen. The passive drake tank is an unstable equilibrium tank. It only existes during a small fraction of its shield HP. If faced with multiple ships its regen is severelly hinderd. Most of its defence becomes its EHP, which is not much better than other BCs can achieve especially considering its subpar damage.
I'm well aware of the way it works, but you seem to have missed that I was talking about the bait role. Fitting gank in the bait role is stupid, just like the rest of your post.
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No I can't. The problem here is lack of damage. Your own buffer fitting can easily beat your passive regen fitting as long as you have 2 or more ships in each side though.
Of course you can't, because they don't exist. This is because passive shield tanking is utterly broken.
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Argue with me objectively or not at all.
Just quoting for truth. Now please look into a mirror, because it seems that your reliance on passive shield tanking has blinded you to just how utterly broken that it is.
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Good argument. Oh wait. You have none.
Mirror much?
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No, for missions IFs are great, actually the best, in passive drakes. For pvp, on the other hand, you are screwed as soon as you meet your first neut oponent. Because the ONLY thing you have, regen, is cut in half.
You're talking out of your ass. I've PVP'ed against nos/neut domis and they still haven't broken me by virtue of capping me out.
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No actually it is even better than that. Especially in gangs which are mandatory for your drake.
Actually, the Drake is probably better for gangs. It's hard to say for sure though.
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And most horribly failed gangs are full of specialist ships and fall apart when one important task can't be performed because the specialist has died...
I dunno that I agree. Most horribly failed gangs are full of noobs who run across a single reasonable pilot. :)
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A single Huggin can kill a nano-Ishtar anytime. And nobody says the huggin is OP.
Actually, they do. It's one of those "nano ships"
-Liang
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 07:29:22
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 07:25:43
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Liang Nuren
It's also overpowered compared to any reasonable rep setup because it has both the advantages of absurdly powerful unneutable indefinite boosters coupled with truly absurd amounts of hitpoints. ;-)
and 1/3rd the damage 
No, not really. :)
Somehow this complaint went from saying "passive tanking is overpowered" to HAM drake is overpowered compared to the hurricane. I agree with you on that specific drake fit - it obviously blows away the hurricane. Not sure what that has to do with passive shield tanking in general. Does anyone really agree that HIC's in low-sec are overpowered? Should no ships be able to tank at all or what?
If you have an issue with one ship (the drake) then just argue that the drake should be changed but the vast majority of regen-oriented tanks are certainly not overpowered.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Somehow this complaint went from saying "passive tanking is overpowered" to HAM drake is overpowered compared to the hurricane. I agree with you on that specific drake fit - it obviously blows away the hurricane. Not sure what that has to do with passive shield tanking in general. Does anyone really agree that HIC's in low-sec are overpowered? Should no ships be able to tank at all or what?
If you have an issue with one ship (the drake) then just argue that the drake should be changed but the vast majority of regen-oriented tanks are certainly not overpowered.
Actually, I showed a half-way reasonable Drake fit that didn't do "1/3rd" the damage, and then later on showed that you quite literally cannot do less than half.
-Liang
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBQFH, if the ship is going fast enough to precision lights (assault launcher) you don't need the painter. The rest of your arguments are of a similar vain.
But you do for precision heavies.
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I'm well aware of the way it works, but you seem to have missed that I was talking about the bait role. Fitting gank in the bait role is stupid, just like the rest of your post.
My post is not half stupid as yoru comments, I am sorry to say. You seem like a politician. You start arguing for something and then suddenly switch to another when the argument is not in your favor.
We were talking about regen passive tank against buffer and then you suddenly start witha ctive tanks. You were saying that passive regen drakes are OP and then you star saying that they are only useful in A VERY LIMITED amount of situations and even then you STILL think they are OP.
Please, bait drake. If everythign a passive regen drake can be is a bait, it is severily UNDERPOWERED.
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No I can't. The problem here is lack of damage. Your own buffer fitting can easily beat your passive regen fitting as long as you have 2 or more ships in each side though.
Of course you can't, because they don't exist. This is because passive shield tanking is utterly broken.
Good job ignoring the comparison with buffer tank. You are doing a fool of yourself, Liang. Really.
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Argue with me objectively or not at all.
Just quoting for truth. Now please look into a mirror, because it seems that your reliance on passive shield tanking has blinded you to just how utterly broken that it is.
Flash news, I have a gallent and a minmatar char. I just kill passive tanks. And you have NOTHING to do with truth. You are just throwing assertiomns without data to back them up. You are changing teh subject when proved wrong and remaking the assertions to try to pass them as truth. Your last texts are examples of flawed arguments.
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Mirror much?
Evemail your address and I will send you one.
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You're talking out of your ass. I've PVP'ed against nos/neut domis and they still haven't broken me by virtue of capping me out.
Sorry, but math says otehrwise. Your perception is therefore wrong. But by all means, prove me wrong with numbers, I invite you...
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Actually, the Drake is probably better for gangs. It's hard to say for sure though.
Again wrong. A gang of harbingers will slaughter a gang of drakes.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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