Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 06:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zeerover
b) Go for a well-rounded fit and blow the Falcon to bits.
Oh wait, people can do that already
Oh, wait, you're stupid?
Well rounded fit? Blow Falcon to bits.... hm.
Hey, I have a Minmatar ship which can do this. It's a well rounded DC II tanked Maelstorm which it totally focused on range, range, range and range, together with two ECCMs in order to be actually able to lock. Well rounded, indeed!
You're just trolling on purpose really. There is absolutely nothing well rounded about bringing a fully one-dimensional sniper-fit BS whose sole purpose in combat is to drive off Falcons, and it has absolutely 0 viability for any small gang.
There's a few specialized ships which can hit at Falcon ranges while not being huge and stationary death traps. 0 of them fit covert ops cloaks.
Not really I mean, you could also shoot other support ships with it.
Oh, hai, another person who's concept of small gang is above 10-15 people minimum.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 07:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Evanade c) incompetence of the whiners
|
Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 07:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cpt Branko Oh, wait, you're stupid?
Well rounded fit? Blow Falcon to bits.... hm.
Hey, I have a Minmatar ship which can do this. It's a well rounded DC II tanked Maelstorm which it totally focused on range, range, range and range, together with two ECCMs in order to be actually able to lock. Well rounded, indeed!
You're just trolling on purpose really. There is absolutely nothing well rounded about bringing a fully one-dimensional sniper-fit BS whose sole purpose in combat is to drive off Falcons, and it has absolutely 0 viability for any small gang.
There's a few specialized ships which can hit at Falcon ranges while not being huge and stationary death traps. 0 of them fit covert ops cloaks.
Um, I'm impressed if you managed to get a 2x ECCM Mael to hit 240km with a reasonable alpha (read not in deep falloff and it's lockable) and still have a MWD + DC II.
The Apoc can pull it off, but you're down to one ECCM; the Rokh can pull it off, but you have no buffer, and the Mega can pull it off but again you're down to one ECCM. All of these ships will have severe trouble engaging on gates (this is important to me).
However, there is the homely Raven sitting over there. With halfway decent command bonuses you can hit all the way to 250km and the missiles will only get there in 20 seconds. If you're lucky, you'll score off a second volley before he manages to get you jammed, and he may not notice that you've fired on him. When the first volley impacts, he has eight seconds to warp out or die (which is surprisingly little time to react if he's at rest).
Well, that's the theory anyway. I find more often than not that I'm the one flying with ECM support rather than the other fellow.
[Raven, ECCM Sniper] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECCM - Gravimetric II ECCM - Gravimetric II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
-Liang
hmmm, what kind of missile velocity are you getting out of that setup? With a cheap 3% implant, you should be pushing or even exceeding 10Km/s
|
shadime
Solitude Empires OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 07:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: NoNah I keep suggesting this, and so far I havn't actually recieved a single reason not to, so I will keep suggesting it.
If the range of damps and ECM were switched, the problem would more or less be solved. It's some what logic that a longer range EW is less powerful than the shorter range variant.(ECM is obviously stronger than damps.) As it stands right now, ECM-specialized ships got no weak range, it's equally good at 0km as it is at 200km, it eliminates an opponent completely and it can easily get to the distance(cloak) it desires and get away(cloak) should the opponent move and thus alter the distance.
With the change it would have most of the above, but two things would be different. First off it would have to specialize in it to get to 150km+ ranges and secondly damps would be at almost the same range, but have a greater chance to shorten the opponents targeting range. Hence you have the options of either A) Crippling opponents more often or B) Eliminating opponents less often.
/signed completely
|
Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 08:17:00 -
[35]
kinda all combined:
it's just untouchable in slightly-better-than-newb hands, especially with an upcoming speed nerf to allow even more (ball)room for error aka Roemy Schneider (probably lacking game time again) |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 08:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Liang Nuren [Raven, ECCM Sniper]
I very much doubt that you can kill a Falcon in two volleys. If you have three BCUs and at least one Warhead Flare Catalyst rig, it's a whole different story, of course.
The basic idea is good, though. -- Gradient forum |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 08:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Malcanis
hmmm, what kind of missile velocity are you getting out of that setup? With a cheap 3% implant, you should be pushing or even exceeding 10Km/s
EDIT: Re "8 seconds to warp out" - that's 8 seconds minus lllllaaaaaagggg. And that first volley will have the Falcon into armour...
I have max skills for this.... so roughly 11km/s without implants... 12.5 with? :)
You also didn't add anything that I didn't already account for. There are caveats, but they're merely that. The plan (it's a theory... ): - Wait out any jamming - Lock Falcon - Fire on falcon
Now, at this point the falcon must warp within 15 seconds even if he's at 250km - anything under 90km and he will take the damage whether he likes it or not.
Assuming that he doesn't start warping immediately (and honestly it's somewhat unreasonable to think that he will), there's a very strong possibility that he'll misjudge the speed of the missiles and give me two volleys on him. Two volleys will hull or destroy him, depending on skills.
-Liang --
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 08:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Liang Nuren [Raven, ECCM Sniper]
I very much doubt that you can kill a Falcon in two volleys. If you have three BCUs and at least one Warhead Flare Catalyst rig, it's a whole different story, of course.
The basic idea is good, though.
Well the basic idea is all that really matters. I tend to hesitate to actually shoot my own Falcon. ;-)
-Liang --
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 09:00:00 -
[39]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 29/09/2008 09:04:24
Originally by: Angelonico
Originally by: Horchan I'd rather they keep the Falcon as is, and buff the rest of the recon ships so they are of comparable ability.
Thread over.
eh, i beg to differ. let me try to look at this subjectively and non biased.
firstly, i'm not for or against this ecm argument. i wish we could put everything back to the way it was in 2004 and leave it the **** alone (you can add these new ships in, just the way they are). i'm tired of them ****ing w/ the mechanics of the game
horchan, why thread over? angelonico, how do you suggest they do that?
do we make the rapier able to web out to 250km? now everybody screams: overpowered!! rawr rawr rabble! or do we make the rapier able to target paint out to 250k? now everybody snickers
do we make the amarr able to nos you out to 250km? now everybody screams: overpowered!! rawr rawr rabble! OR do we make the amarr able to tracking disrupt out to 250km now everybody snickers
see where i'm going with this?
compare the lachesis, the pilgrim, the falcon and the rapier. look very closely at their ship bonuses. now ask/consider:
#1, how would you bring them inline (are we talking range? what?)
#2 would you change the other races to get multiple bonuses to one ability in stead of ship bonuses that cover multiple items? (not just one)
#3, consider only 2 of these have the ability to completely shut down a targets offensive abilities against you and the other two can only effect you (at most) moderately in a combat sense. how do you make up for that w/ the other two?
now, the roles for the 4 are obviously different. this is also not to mention the timeless classic "tp=matar ew wtf?" (dont get me wrong, i love and use target painters). point is, i dont think it's possible to 'buff the rest so they are comparable ability' because their abilities are completely frickin different! and if you tried, no one would accept nossing, or webbing or dampening at 250km. as much as i hate whining, this is the only thing i can agree w/ the whiners on.
i think the bottom line is, between ccp borking with mechanics all the time and so called FoTM ships/setups ppl just need to realize they are expected to cross train other races ships and when you reach a situation where you can't beat 'em, you join em
thats what some ppl would consider broken. (ie: if you need a nano to kill a nano its broken) , however i simply just call it a normal day in Eve ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 09:12:00 -
[40]
Originally by: HankMurphy OR do we make the amarr able to tracking disrupt out to 250km now everybody snickers
You obviously don't realize how good TDs are. 250km TDs would arguably make the Falcon obsolete for fleet combat, as a single TD will take a sniper battleship out of the fight, with zero chance of failure. The only thing keeping the Curse/Pilgrim from being awesome fleet ships is the lack of range on their ewar, give them 250km and they'll be incredibly effective (and likely spawn a ton of "nerf TDs!!!!" threads).
|
|
HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 09:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 29/09/2008 09:18:31
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: HankMurphy OR do we make the amarr able to tracking disrupt out to 250km now everybody snickers
You obviously don't realize how good TDs are. 250km TDs would arguably make the Falcon obsolete for fleet combat, as a single TD will take a sniper battleship out of the fight, with zero chance of failure. The only thing keeping the Curse/Pilgrim from being awesome fleet ships is the lack of range on their ewar, give them 250km and they'll be incredibly effective (and likely spawn a ton of "nerf TDs!!!!" threads).
yeah, that would be cool, but it would be a niche ability. awsome vs snipers, jack & meatballs vs anything else.
Originally by: HankMurphy
#3, consider only 2 of these have the ability to completely shut down a targets offensive abilities against you and the other two can only effect you (at most) moderately in a combat sense. how do you make up for that w/ the other two?
i say moderately here because of the fact that you are only really hurting maybe one gang role at a time. web the frigs, track disrupt the snipers/lr turrets, see what i'm getting at? ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt! |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 10:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: HankMurphy OR do we make the amarr able to tracking disrupt out to 250km now everybody snickers
You obviously don't realize how good TDs are. 250km TDs would arguably make the Falcon obsolete for fleet combat, as a single TD will take a sniper battleship out of the fight, with zero chance of failure. The only thing keeping the Curse/Pilgrim from being awesome fleet ships is the lack of range on their ewar, give them 250km and they'll be incredibly effective (and likely spawn a ton of "nerf TDs!!!!" threads).
As it is, you can get a TD to just over 100Km optimal + 36Km falloff...
|
Morris 159
Free Space Initiative FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 12:01:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Morris 159 on 29/09/2008 12:02:43 There is no problem with ECM.
ECM is fine as it is. At first its chanse based where all other e-war works ALWAYS. If you fit your ship to maximize jamming chanse you have like no tank what so ever. (Try fitting all ships with an ECM bonus on eft once before you flame nerf this nerf that)
With good skills you can have a 10 point jammer strenght without loosing all your tank. (on 5 - 7 jammers that is) Then consider that you have to spread those jammers over about 4 races => 1 or 2 effective jammers ship. And if the other party brought only one shiptype your basicly f*****.
The problem is that ppl start whining before they start fitting ECCM. Ever tried jamming a ship with an eccm fitted in a mid and low slot?
The only problem I do want to acknowledge is the Cloak Jam Cloak Jam cycle. THIS proposition is great, a decloaking (or longer decloaking) delay would be nice to.
PS i fly a BS with ecm bonus and ECM isn't the I-win button, it realy isn't, especially in 20-30 ppl fleets
"There are only two things that are infinite. The Universe and human stupidity, but I am rather unsure of the first" A-Einstein |
kyrv
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 12:47:00 -
[44]
I find that is a fleet doesn't have an ecm boat it simply deserves to fail, on the otherhand if its a small gang then you shouldn't expect to win against a command ship anyhow so bog off and try at something else.
People that whine usually dont have enough targets in war and get stuck with no options.
|
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 12:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: NoNah I keep suggesting this, and so far I havn't actually recieved a single reason not to, so I will keep suggesting it.
If the range of damps and ECM were switched, the problem would more or less be solved. It's some what logic that a longer range EW is less powerful than the shorter range variant.(ECM is obviously stronger than damps.) As it stands right now, ECM-specialized ships got no weak range, it's equally good at 0km as it is at 200km, it eliminates an opponent completely and it can easily get to the distance(cloak) it desires and get away(cloak) should the opponent move and thus alter the distance.
With the change it would have most of the above, but two things would be different. First off it would have to specialize in it to get to 150km+ ranges and secondly damps would be at almost the same range, but have a greater chance to shorten the opponents targeting range. Hence you have the options of either A) Crippling opponents more often or B) Eliminating opponents less often.
Hmm, not bad, but i still prefer that idea about ecm stacking on single targets. Didnt read the rest of the thread so it may have been countered but..Wont that just make arazu's overpowered? Sensor damps work everytime remember, while ecm is chance based.. Awesome EVE history
|
Lijhal
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 12:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Evanade c) incompetence of the whiners
|
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 15:40:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/09/2008 06:50:31
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zeerover
b) Go for a well-rounded fit and blow the Falcon to bits.
Oh wait, people can do that already
Oh, wait, you're stupid?
Well rounded fit? Blow Falcon to bits.... hm.
Hey, I have a Minmatar ship which can do this. It's a well rounded DC II tanked Maelstorm which it totally focused on range, range, range and range, together with two ECCMs in order to be actually able to lock. Well rounded, indeed!
You're just trolling on purpose really. There is absolutely nothing well rounded about bringing a fully one-dimensional sniper-fit BS whose sole purpose in combat is to drive off Falcons, and it has absolutely 0 viability for any small gang.
There's a few specialized ships which can hit at Falcon ranges while not being huge and stationary death traps. 0 of them fit covert ops cloaks.
Not really I mean, you could also shoot other support ships with it.
Oh, hai, another person who's concept of small gang is above 10-15 people minimum. Sniper BS have 0 viability for small gangs, particularly ones which need to move around a bit, and tend to explode when looked at in the wrong way.
Suggesting dropping a Mothership is probably more valid then 'bring sniper BS wherever you go'.
It's called compromise, EVE is not about collecting killmails and killboard points. _
|
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 15:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Oh, hai, another person who's concept of small gang is above 10-15 people minimum. Sniper BS have 0 viability for small gangs, particularly ones which need to move around a bit, and tend to explode when looked at in the wrong way.
Suggesting dropping a Mothership is probably more valid then 'bring sniper BS wherever you go'.
I have known a few snipocs that would go out solo and do rather well. Just because the fleet is small doesnt mean there is no place for a sniper BS. |
Maverick 52
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 16:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/09/2008 05:37:27
Originally by: NoNah I.. admittably still don't see it. You'll have a boat working at up to 127 km optimal, at best bringing down an opponent to 20% of it's original targeting, or 6 targets to 57.5% of it's targeting.
This compared to a similiar build with ecm tanking almost as much but more or less eliminating up to some 3 other targets at some 15% longer optimal range.
That's the thing - ECM won't be eliminating that many battleships from the fight - and even if you remove one it'll be a random chance event. If you switch the range of damps and ECM, it will be entirely reasonable to bring 4-5 scorps to play at 120km and shut down between 20-30 other pilots indefinitely.
Damps having that kind of range is exceedingly dangerous.
Now here is the flaw...
The damps will only remove that many BS from a long range fight. This would be effective when sniper fleet vs. sniper fleet engage, however being the scorp makes you primary anyways, and in these kinds of fleets there is more than a mere dozen BS per side.
If you have a short range engagement, more common to the low sec, gate camp style PvP, your Scorpion dampening 4-5 BS will do absolutely nothing to effect the fight. The best you can hope for is to be the 1st one on the grid and to put scan res scripts on them before your BS fleet comes in.
The ECM Scorp combined w/ a RSD Scorp could very interesting indeed however.
|
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 16:21:00 -
[50]
I'd rather have a TD Scorp if I were to not use ECM tbh. _
|
|
Jody Mclane
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 17:39:00 -
[51]
the fact that they perma jam from 200km away with the ability to cloak would be the reason, you stupid **** face |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 17:44:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I think ECCM should reflect jams when jams fail.
lol! ECCM is almost never going to cause jams to fail. Falcon pilot trying to keep falcon overpowered. ECCM is NOT an effective counter to a falcon. The only effective counter is one or more falcons on your side.
A single falcon can permajam 4 BS and ECCM is going to do very little about that. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 18:02:00 -
[53]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto A single falcon can permajam 4 BS and ECCM is going to do very little about that.
Vic, I respect your PVP abilities, but this is an outright lie and you know it.
-Liang --
|
supr3m3justic3
Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 18:08:00 -
[54]
wa wa wa......waaaaaaaa......wAaaaaAAaaaaAAAaAaawawwaawawwwaawaw.........awaw
awawawawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
Jazzebella
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 21:25:00 -
[55]
I think the problem is that ECM modules add a flat number to the overall jam strength while ECCM increases your sensor strength by a percentage.
If your sensor strength is a small number ECCM won't really help you. While if you have a good base strength with just 1 specific ECCM you become difficult to reliable jam even for a falcon. I think this is why some people say ECCM is garbage while others say it works fine.
Smaller ships are completely screw over by a single falcon while larger ships have no problems. Both ECCM and ECM should be either a fixed number increase or a percentage. Either way Sensor strength, ECM, and ECCM would need a compleat overhaul if they want to do it right. IMO either do it right or don't do it at all because I hate half arse changes that only cover up the problem. But what do I know.
|
Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 21:39:00 -
[56]
I've played quite a few PvP mmorgs and CC whines are the norm. People don't want synergy in small type groups. Now EvE is even worse since everything is wrapped around EFT. If anything its range supports the pocket cloaky ECM dual-boxing ***gorty. So the real problem is unbalanced groups and alts. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 21:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jazzebella I think the problem is that ECM modules add a flat number to the overall jam strength while ECCM increases your sensor strength by a percentage.
If your sensor strength is a small number ECCM won't really help you. While if you have a good base strength with just 1 specific ECCM you become difficult to reliable jam even for a falcon. I think this is why some people say ECCM is garbage while others say it works fine.
Smaller ships are completely screw over by a single falcon while larger ships have no problems. Both ECCM and ECM should be either a fixed number increase or a percentage. Either way Sensor strength, ECM, and ECCM would need a compleat overhaul if they want to do it right. IMO either do it right or don't do it at all because I hate half arse changes that only cover up the problem. But what do I know.
The problems with this: - You have to start somewhere (such as what your jamming strength is)... 20000000% of 0 is still 0. - Sig amps increase your jamming strength by a percentage.
I will agree that for frigates (especially) the diffference between fitting an ECCM and not is essentially nill... but this could just be a classic example of needing a module much like the MAPC for them.
Also, of course, I've always recommended moving ECCM into sensor boosters as a script.
-Liang |
echohead
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 23:43:00 -
[58]
Falcons would be almost useless if more people fitted eccms. Also I have run into problems with arazu's popping up out of nowwhere and damping my falcons range down to nothing.
|
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.09.30 00:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: echohead Falcons would be almost useless if more people fitted eccms. Also I have run into problems with arazu's popping up out of nowwhere and damping my falcons range down to nothing.
SHOCKING NEWS! They would certainly not, and most people do not find the idea of wasting already limited layouts on more than one or perhaps two ECCMs or boosters. To properly counter the Falcon, many would have to give up their entire mid rack, and here's some more stuff for you, Mr. Falcon pilot; some of us actually do something but annoy people with our midslots. Some of us depend on them to secure kills, as a matter of fact. Kills. Attacking. You know, that stuff which we people with guns have to do to get you your precious money. Comprende?
Not everyone flies Arazus. Arazus also have some serious problems making their way to you in time, if you don't jam them outright. Not to mention the range of SDs compared to your ECM is just pitiful.
Anything else?
|
sixx
|
Posted - 2008.09.30 01:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto A single falcon can permajam 4 BS and ECCM is going to do very little about that.
Vic, I respect your PVP abilities, but this is an outright lie and you know it.
-Liang
No disrespect, but have you actually tested this? I have. I can tell you that 2 eccm's, overloaded can be perma jammed. I have no problem with the current strength of jammers, but eccm should have some effect. I would be curious to know what the formulas are that make this work.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |