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Author	Topic
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:24:00 - [1] Edited by: fightnkill on 30/09/2008 03:29:48 1 falcon & 2 bs vs 3 BS. The 3 BS gets slaughtered. Can ANYTHING counter falcon? ECCMs don't work. They get HUGE points of ECM jamming strength (7.0 per jamming for 7 jammers), Jamming range (130+KM), and Targeting range (120 KM). Which makes them almost impossible to kill? K, if you don't agree with me, lets reverse the question. If falcon is weak, then should CCP increase it's Targeting range, Jamming range, Jamming strength, and etc.?
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:27:00 - [2] Edited by: fightnkill on 30/09/2008 03:36:36 Edited by: fightnkill on 30/09/2008 03:31:02 Nerf or Rig. lets hear what ur oppinion is. Lets Compare Falcon with other Faction Recon ships Falcon, Can Easily Jam up to 5 ships easily from 150km away. Arazu & Lachesis The best Arazu and Lachesis is decrease targeting range, and targeting speed. They can fully disable ONE TARGET's locking capabilities if they are lucky. Range from like 60km away. SUCKS compared to what Falcon can do Curse & Pilgrim Can fully neutralize / Nos out the capacitor of 1 ship. Other then that, nothing very special. Sucky ducky five dollar. Huginn & Rapier Can WEB nanoships, and can become a nanoship, while it can't disable 5 target's locking system from 15km away, it can web some multiple targets, but compared to what Falcon can do, it's weaker then that.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:34:00 - [3] There's really nothing at all surprising about 1 falcon / 2 BS killing 3 BS. That said, I think the fits of those battleships is pretty suspect. ;-) In all seriousness, though, I simply have to ask what you're going to whine about next. No, really... first it was nanos, now it's falcons, then it'll be rooks/scorps supposing ECM itself doesn't get nerfed to hell and back.... So what's next? Logistics ships? RR gangs? Anything that can stand up to your 3 man ganksquad for more than 4 seconds? -Liang
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's really nothing at all surprising about 1 falcon / 2 BS killing 3 BS. That said, I think the fits of those battleships is pretty suspect. ;-) In all seriousness, though, I simply have to ask what you're going to whine about next. No, really... first it was nanos, now it's falcons, then it'll be rooks/scorps supposing ECM itself doesn't get nerfed to hell and back.... So what's next? Logistics ships? RR gangs? Anything that can stand up to your 3 man ganksquad for more than 4 seconds? -Liang Think bout it, Would it be fair for other race players if Falcon easily overpowered the counter-part for those race ships? Arazu and Falcon screws up Locking mechanisms of ships, while Falcon FULLY disables it and can do it to multiple ships, Azazu can only do it to one and it can't even fully jam it.
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:46:00 - [5] and the point im trying to across is the fact that there's no absolute counter against Falcon, they can just jam ships from 150km, and if some nanoship happened to try to tackle it, they can perma jam the nanoship while jamming the original one. Or they can just warp away, come back, and start jamming agian.
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:50:00 - [6] yes there is an abo****e counter to the falcon 9 ships
fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Arvald yes there is an abo****e counter to the falcon 9 ships 2 falcons to counter that 9 ships :D all it takes.
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:52:00 - [8] Originally by: fightnkill Originally by: Arvald yes there is an abo****e counter to the falcon 9 ships 2 falcons to counter that 9 ships :D all it takes. bring 9 more
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:53:00 - [9] Originally by: fightnkill Think bout it, Would it be fair for other race players if Falcon easily overpowered the counter-part for those race ships? Arazu and Falcon screws up Locking mechanisms of ships, while Falcon FULLY disables it and can do it to multiple ships, Azazu can only do it to one and it can't even fully jam it. Think about it: nobody flies the Arazu not because they can fly the Falcon (though this is part of it), but because a damage ship is literally better to have in gang in virtually all situations. The situations in which an Arazu is truly useful is strictly limited to support-support, such as keeping a nano from warping off while a Rapier webs it or using lock time scripts to cover holes in a Falcon's ECM. I think you have to be exceedingly careful when nerfing "crowd control" (such as ECM, Damps, and TDs) because oftentimes balance is literally on a knife's edge. If you push too far one way, the ship becomes blindingly overpowered, but pushing too far the other provides no compelling reason to ever fly it again. I'd say that the game is richer for having ewar, so I'm (generally speaking) against any ewar nerf. Is ECM over the top right now? Yes, to a point... however, I think it's largely because there's really no compelling EFT reason to fit ECCM. The best compromise that I can come up with is to slightly increase the utility of ECCM and at the same time move it into sensor boosters as a script... however it's worth noting that ECM is not really ideal for small gang warfare - but damps really would be. It might be amusing to try boosting damp ships up to something approaching their old glory - afterall their modules have already been cut in half. But then, you have to admit what really bothers you about damps and ECM: the frustration of not being able to do anything... but this is (as far as any halfway successful crowd control system) an illusion. Any successful crowd control system will hamper your effectiveness to near the same levels... otherwise it simply wouldn't be worth it to bring. -Liang --
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:54:00 - [10] Originally by: fightnkill and the point im trying to across is the fact that there's no absolute counter against Falcon, they can just jam ships from 150km, and if some nanoship happened to try to tackle it, they can perma jam the nanoship while jamming the original one. Or they can just warp away, come back, and start jamming agian. Raven 6x Cruise II, 2x LG RR 100mn MWD I, 2x ECCM II, 2x Sensor Booster II 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, DC II 3x Missile Velocity rigs With a couple of these on the field, I'll be shocked if your falcons can stay on the field for more than a single jam cycle. -Liang --

Feng Schui Minmatar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:00:00 - [11] Edited by: Feng Schui on 30/09/2008 04:00:19 all that needs to happen is to boost ECCM, but of course, CCP won't do that. edited for phailing at spelling
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:26:00 - [12] Originally by: fightnkill 1 falcon & 2 bs vs 3 BS. The 3 BS gets slaughtered. Can ANYTHING counter falcon? ECCMs don't work. Sniper BS with even a single ECCM (contrary to popular belief, it won't be permajammed) or Stealth Bomber w/ ECCM and you would be using 1 ship to remove the Falcon.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: fightnkill 1 falcon & 2 bs vs 3 BS. The 3 BS gets slaughtered. Can ANYTHING counter falcon? ECCMs don't work. Sniper BS with even a single ECCM (contrary to popular belief, it won't be permajammed) or Stealth Bomber w/ ECCM and you would be using 1 ship to remove the Falcon. I like 2 eccm, it worked quite well, then again I was up against 2 falcons. dropped a tracking enhancer for a 1600mm plate, and they were only at 130ish km rather than 200 so I didn't hit them so well, but heh putting one into 1/2 armor makes it want to warp out fast
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:36:00 - [14] Edited by: Stuart Price on 30/09/2008 04:41:32 On the other hand, when did you last see someone soloing in a Falcon? On a serious point, I think a lot of people would be much happier if jamming was tweaked slightly: Instead of breaking/preventing target locks it disables weapon activation. This way, if you're being jammed and a cycle fails, you don't spend half the failed cycle locking only to get rejammed again on the next cycle. Instead you get the full 20 seconds to fire. It's the relocking time that truly buggers you up if a Falcon is cycle jamming your gang/fleet. Falcon's permajamming 6 ships for a whole fight just doesn't happen unless you're all in Marauders without ECCM.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Stuart Price Edited by: Stuart Price on 30/09/2008 04:41:32 On the other hand, when did you last see someone soloing in a Falcon? On a serious point, I think a lot of people would be much happier if jamming was tweaked slightly: Instead of breaking/preventing target locks it disables weapon activation. This way, if you're being jammed and a cycle fails, you don't spend half the failed cycle locking only to get rejammed again on the next cycle. Instead you get the full 20 seconds to fire. It's the relocking time that truly buggers you up if a Falcon is cycle jamming your gang/fleet. Falcon's permajamming 6 ships for a whole fight just doesn't happen unless you're all in Marauders without ECCM. but that is why I love arazus, make their lock time long enough that they can't retarget before getting jammed again. or alternately making it so they cant shoot past 10km or so. -58.57% lock range (or scan res) with all level 5 and 2 strength rigs. falcons have a 60-80% chance to jam a bs, and that is with racials, bring 2 or more apocs (or some other sniper ship) and they are likely to only have 1 jammed at a time. and to perma jam 6 marauders, I would have to have a matching racial for each one, like that's going to happen. unless you really want to send 2 golems, 1 paladin, 1 vauger, and 1 kronos
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:03:00 - [16] diverse gang vs. 1 dimensional gang 1-dimensional gang gets wiped out. Nerf - tactics?! Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Murkon Salesgirl Amarr	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:15:00 - [17] Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 30/09/2008 03:29:48 1 falcon & 2 bs vs 3 BS. The 3 BS gets slaughtered. Can ANYTHING counter falcon? ECCMs don't work. Sounds like a fine mechanic. Mixed fleet beats mass x (mass protoss carriers!! WTFPWNED!). Define "ECCMs don't work".. go on. What do you expect, that you spend 1 mid slot to nullify an entire warfare tactic? Imagine if ECCM made you invulnerable to jamming.. guess there's no reason to fly ewar anymore is there? If anything, the damp specialized ships need a huge boost so it could serve as a viable ewar platform. Everyone who wants ewar, automatically use ECM. It's not because its overpowered. It's because the alternative (Damps) was nerfed to utter badness.
Presidio Hug Nutz	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:15:00 - [18] Edited by: Presidio on 30/09/2008 05:16:19 1 - Bring your own ECM. 2 - Do what liang suggested, counter ECM raven. 3 - Use a covert op to drop a drone boat on the falcon. There are more but, learn to adapt. Asking for an ECM nerf will just dumb down the game. If you want tank and spank go play wow. And no I am not a falcon pilot. -
Herring Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:28:00 - [19] Boost the counters, don't nerf the ship. And no, I don't fly it. Nerfs, however, are the ultimate negative game experience. They suck. -ECCM could use an ever so slight boost in effectiveness. -My personal favorite, f.o.f. missiles need their range adjusted so they match the locking range of the ship that they're being fired from, including rigs, skills, mods, etc.
RoronoaZoro	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:30:00 - [20] Edited by: RoronoaZoro on 30/09/2008 05:31:45 1 curse/pilgrim & 2 bs can also kill 3 bs. The curse recon can neut/nos 1 bs while tracking disrupting the other and still have 5 bonused drones to put on the target

Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.30 05:54:00 - [21] meh 2 bs with eccm and 1 stealth bomber should do pretty good against a falcon and 2 bs. just make sure the sb has quick locking and he can usually get a volley off and cloak that will wreck the crap out of the hitpoints on a falcon. do that 3 or 4 times and the falcon will either warp off or fly away leaving the other two bs to die.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:12:00 - [22] Leik, omg! Poorly worded OP w/ no new information about falcons! Come, lets flog this horse too. It doesn't look dead enough yet.
el M Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton .... falcons have a 60-80% chance to jam a bs, and that is with racials, bring 2 or more apocs (or some other sniper ship) and they are likely to only have 1 jammed at a time. .... ECCM-ed sniper BS will have better chance of killing falcons, instant (even if lower)damage.. Liang's anti-Falcon patrol Ravens might not kill as many Falcons but will be just as effective at keeping them out of the fight and still add ~400 DPS for the rest fight, whereas the sniper BS will be almost useless due to short range tracking issues on long range turrets..
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:47:00 - [24] LIES! Snaked nanorooks are the new FOTM!
Tuncan Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's really nothing at all surprising about 1 falcon / 2 BS killing 3 BS. That said, I think the fits of those battleships is pretty suspect. ;-) In all seriousness, though, I simply have to ask what you're going to whine about next. No, really... first it was nanos, now it's falcons, then it'll be rooks/scorps supposing ECM itself doesn't get nerfed to hell and back.... So what's next? Logistics ships? RR gangs? Anything that can stand up to your 3 man ganksquad for more than 4 seconds? -Liang This. This game is about the ability of varying your gang ships. OFCOURSE 2bs+EW ship wins against 3bs Cmon guys, do not make this game "oh all ships are same its all gank & tank". You didn't have the brain to counter nanos, nanos nerfed( actually they have nerfed ships that are not meant to be nano but made nano) now you don't have the ability to vary your gang ships, EW will get nerf. I hope ccp won't listen you.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren But then, you have to admit what really bothers you about damps and ECM: the frustration of not being able to do anything... but this is (as far as any halfway successful crowd control system) an illusion. Any successful crowd control system will hamper your effectiveness to near the same levels... otherwise it simply wouldn't be worth it to bring. Tbh, covops cloak+range bothers me the most. 90% of the ships can't, simply can't engage in those ranges even when unjammed (unlike most other EW ships). On top of that, ECM is the only totally disabling EW, with damps being second to that, but only when enough are applied. Now add covops cloak to all that, and it gets absurd. There's no way of knowing you're going to get royally screwed by someone's Falcon alt until fight begins - short of spending all the 300 standing slots on Falcon pilots you regularly see flying around. In the end, the only sensible thing to do is get your own Falcon alt.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Stuart Price On a serious point, I think a lot of people would be much happier if jamming was tweaked slightly: Instead of breaking/preventing target locks it disables weapon activation. This way, if you're being jammed and a cycle fails, you don't spend half the failed cycle locking only to get rejammed again on the next cycle. Instead you get the full 20 seconds to fire. It's the relocking time that truly buggers you up if a Falcon is cycle jamming your gang/fleet. Falcon's permajamming 6 ships for a whole fight just doesn't happen unless you're all in Marauders without ECCM. Sounds good in theory, but it makes killing ECM ships way too easy. Lock the ECM ship with a sniper ship, and the moment it fails a jam cycle you insta-pop it before the ECM pilot can even react to the failed jam.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Murkon Salesgirl Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 30/09/2008 03:29:48 1 falcon & 2 bs vs 3 BS. The 3 BS gets slaughtered. Can ANYTHING counter falcon? ECCMs don't work. Sounds like a fine mechanic. Mixed fleet beats mass x (mass protoss carriers!! WTFPWNED!). Define "ECCMs don't work".. go on. What do you expect, that you spend 1 mid slot to nullify an entire warfare tactic? Imagine if ECCM made you invulnerable to jamming.. guess there's no reason to fly ewar anymore is there? If anything, the damp specialized ships need a huge boost so it could serve as a viable ewar platform. Everyone who wants ewar, automatically use ECM. It's not because its overpowered. It's because the alternative (Damps) was nerfed to utter badness. /thread
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Stuart Price On a serious point, I think a lot of people would be much happier if jamming was tweaked slightly: Instead of breaking/preventing target locks it disables weapon activation. This way, if you're being jammed and a cycle fails, you don't spend half the failed cycle locking only to get rejammed again on the next cycle. Instead you get the full 20 seconds to fire. It's the relocking time that truly buggers you up if a Falcon is cycle jamming your gang/fleet. Falcon's permajamming 6 ships for a whole fight just doesn't happen unless you're all in Marauders without ECCM. Sounds good in theory, but it makes killing ECM ships way too easy. Lock the ECM ship with a sniper ship, and the moment it fails a jam cycle you insta-pop it before the ECM pilot can even react to the failed jam. WTB Sniper doing 6500 alpha at 200+km ranges? It's a good suggestion, anyway. In a ECCM BS, even under 1 jammer you spend a preety big amount of time relocking - meaning you're not RRing your friends or firing on whatever you're trying to fire on. If anyone is interested, there's a preety detailed discussion of effects of lock time on jamming effectiveness in S&M with a bunch of suggestions. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.09.30 08:02:00 - [30] You know, just out of the blue. Could a Cerberus serve as anti-ECM? _

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