Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 18:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a pretty serious issue I keep running into where far more experienced players just keep stomping on newer ones.
Idiotic pirates are seriously getting irritating for running my noob corp.
There needs to be some kind of protection to keep more experienced players messing with newer ones.
There should be 1 month of protection from being attacked by other players from the point a character is created. Especially for new players. They can break this one month by attacking another player themselves.
Or just something.
I'll leave it for you guys at CCP to figure out, but the current system rewards experienced players attacking much newer ones way to much. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1206
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 18:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
I had a similar problem when I was new.
1) A month of protection means nothing. The first month goes quick, and then you'll just be asking for 2 or 3 or 6 months of protection when you realize 30 days is barely enough time to figure out basic game mechanics without someone to help you.
2) If you're running a noob player corp, you've opened yourself to wars without the benefit of experienced players to help you fight. I went through this and we dealt with it by not giving them anyone to shoot at. Eve does a rather poor job of warning you about the risk of wars in my opinion, but now that you know the risk you have a choice: do you continue operating that corp, or disband and join one that can help you get started without constantly being under threat of being shot?
3) I've got almost 2 years and there are plenty of people out there who could curb-stomp me due to superior skill training and deeper wallets. It's never "fair".
4) I'm not sure where you're operating or what you're doing, but there's *something* attracting these guys to you if you've had to deal with it more than a few times. We saw all of four wars in the noob corp I was in for my first year, two of which I personally provoked. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Cpt Mooney
T.E.R.R.A Shadow of Honor
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 18:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:there are plenty of people out there who could curb-stomp me due to superior skill training and deeper wallets. It's never "fair". not it isnt, and its obvious that it werent ever meant to be "fair". on the other hand there is NO area or whatsoever a newbie could resort to, wich is the main problem imo.
Quote:I'm not sure where you're operating or what you're doing, but there's *something* attracting these guys to you if you've had to deal with it more than a few times not true, theres TONS of griefers out there who search for this specific type of corp to gank. and not even concord will help you, since the empire-war fee is a blatant insult due to its price so low that its not even worth to mention.
eve is prolly the most newb unfriendly game out there, and ccp wont do crap about it since every upcoming thread regarding this issue is taken over by wannabe-pirates who enjoy the actual state and the fact that they can whoop as many folx not able to defend themself as they want, and flame away within minutes after the thread appeared.
just keep track of this thread and youll see what i mean... -.-
noob-protection is a concept unkown to ccp, and not even the fact that 6 out of 6 rl-pals of mine who started eve gave up on it again in the past 12 months will help to change this. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1209
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 18:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem with noob protection is, where do you draw the line? Like I said: if you make the "no shooting noobs" limit 30 days, then when you're 35 days old you're still going to feel like you're in an impossible fight. There's no right number for arbitrary noob protection. Also, there are some rather nasty ways to abuse this, like using invincible day-old characters to autopilot officer mods to Jita.
(edit: Also, invincible noobs in a corp at war means you can literally surround an enemy with war targets they can't shoot...UNTIL those targets shoot them. Give me a system like this and I'll find dozens of ways to make it work in my favor.)
My primary suggestion to fix the problem of noob corps being griefed via wardec is to prevent noob corps from being formed. What's at issue here is that you want to be able to step out of noobdom into the big world of Eve, set up a corp, and have all the benefits that come with it but none of the drawbacks. I would say that the solution is to raise the standards for corp creation, or at the very least make it VERY clear to players who want to create corps that they are opening themselves up to a whole new kind of aggression. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1115
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 18:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
The problem is that 30 days of protection is completely meaningless, arbitrary, and exploitable and it doesn't really help the new players in question.
First off, there's the fact that Eve is a harsh and cruel universe. That is one of the draws and why many of us play it. It isn't a fenced off little sandbox with an adult standing over you watching out for you, Eve drops you in the middle of the desert with two paperclips and two feet of rope and says have fun. There's tons of sand to play in, but it's a harsh environment (especially for newer players).
The problem with x days of protection is that it doesn't prepare you for Eve and presents you with a false impression of Eve while it gives the older and more experienced players an advantage (want to haul stuff across Eve completely safely? Simply make a new char on your alt account and train it for Indys).
30 days is both a completely arbitrary amount of time and would cause people to say "but I want to be safe for two months" and then 4 months, and then 6 months, and then a year, and then "I don't want anyone to be able to attack me unless I say it's ok". This would be the death of Eve as we know it.
From reading your post, I can see two things your corp did wrong. First off, making a newb corp and expecting it to be safe. Corps aren't meaningless like guilds are in other games and such, they do have an impact on your gameplay. Second, you gave your opponents easy targets. Easy targets encourage wardeccers to keep attacking over and over. In the years I've been playing, my corp has been attacked many times but it never lasts long. For the simple reason that we don't give them targets, so they quickly grow bored and give up (this doesn't mean never undocking, it just means playing smart and avoiding the deccers).
What Eve needs for new players isn't an arbitrary period of protection, newbies need to get in touch with vets and ask them for advice (and actually listen to advice, I know many people who die because they assume they know better than the vets and ignore advice). The learning curve of Eve can't be overcome by a temporary safety period, this would actually make it worse because newbies would get used to the protection when it's not representative of Eve. The only way to overcome the learning curve in Eve is to either do the research yourself to learn the game or find someone who does know it and ask them tons of questions and soak in all the advice you can. |
Cpt Mooney
T.E.R.R.A Shadow of Honor
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
i aggree on a 30day invincibility or something like that beeing a bad idea, what might solve the roblem is to tag certain systems as "noob" territory where players cant agress each other, or concord being effectively able to take down agressors before they can kill their chosen target. pretty much the same way as concords prevents you from launching bombs in the empire and such... |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
161
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cpt Mooney wrote:i aggree on a 30day invincibility or something like that beeing a bad idea, what might solve the roblem is to tag certain systems as "noob" territory where players cant agress each other, or concord being effectively able to take down agressors before they can kill their chosen target. pretty much the same way as concords prevents you from launching bombs in the empire and such... they already ahve noob ssytems, the systems are fairly well known, and i personally know 3 australian griefers that used to eb in a corp with me (mining corp, they were good guys, but preferred to eb dicks when they pvp'ed) that got banned repeatedly for simply can-flipping in thsoe systems.
so no, we have noob systems, and making them "unaggressable areas" woudl eb HIGHLY EXPLOITABLE because they would ebcome the new trade hubs, as every trader would sell their because he "couldnt be aggressed".
and as someone else pointed out, invincible hauling alts are not a very pleasing idea to think about.
|
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Okay, so 30 day invincibility is a bad idea.
How about an entire server for noobs? For the first 30-90 days, the noobs should all be in the same server. When they pass whatever the day limit is they'll be transferred to a regular server.
I mean, even this idea has some problems. But if it works out, it may be a good option.
|
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1115
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:Okay, so 30 day invincibility is a bad idea.
How about an entire server for noobs? For the first 30-90 days, the noobs should all be in the same server. When they pass whatever the day limit is they'll be transferred to a regular server.
I mean, even this idea has some problems. But if it works out, it may be a good option.
It has the EXACT same issues that 30d of invulnerability has (and then some), in that it: a. Doesn't prepare people for the harsh world that Eve is. b. Is an arbitrary time limit and has no meaning. c. Would end with people asking for a purely PvE server (very bad idea that has been discussed many times). d. Eve is marketed as a single server, that's part of CCP's marketing points, I don't see that changing. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1212
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 19:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
The core problem here is that people are unprepared for what Eve is really like. When they venture out of the starter systems and try to go it alone, they don't understand aggression mechanics, wars, grids, politics, roles, or any of the other things that they NEED to know about to function in Eve.
Better education is the solution here. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
|
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 20:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Okay, so that doesn't work either.
But you need to get the fact that there never will be a perfect solution. But that doesn't mean we can just leave it how it is.
It is an unbalanced system that needs to be fixed. |
Cpt Mooney
T.E.R.R.A Shadow of Honor
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 21:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:they already ahve noob ssytems, the systems are fairly well known, ... so no, we have noob systems, and making them "unaggressable areas" woudl eb HIGHLY EXPLOITABLE because they would ebcome the new trade hubs, as every trader would sell their because he "couldnt be aggressed". as folx do not use the starter systems (where you cant play anyways atm, wich would be highly desirable to make eve at least worth a look to new players) as tradehubs as it is right now, i dont see your point there.
once again ill point out my first post in this threat: "NO NOOBPROTECTION !" yelling as usual... |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1115
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 21:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:Okay, so that doesn't work either.
But you need to get the fact that there never will be a perfect solution. But that doesn't mean we can just leave it how it is.
It is an unbalanced system that needs to be fixed.
No, there can never be a perfect solution, which is something that you need to realize. We have already acknowledged that there Eve is tough for newbies, but we also realize that there is no way to make Eve more idiot-proof for newbies without much more severe consequences to the game as a whole.
However, what has happened is that you have misunderstood the core issue here. The core issue isn't newbies needing protection, it's newbies needing instruction. The solution isn't to dumb it down for newbies, it's to connect them with vets who they can ask questions of and learn from. Newbies can't learn from being protected, that just weakens them. They can only learn Eve by either researching it on their own or talking to a more experienced players and learning from them. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1216
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 21:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:But you need to get the fact that there never will be a perfect solution. But that doesn't mean we can just leave it how it is. Of course we *can* leave it how it is.
Niko DelValle wrote:It is an unbalanced system that needs to be fixed. Eve isn't particularly about balance. Older players with deeper pockets will ALWAYS have the advantage over us. We just have to learn to mitigate those advantages.
As I said, the best way to avoid having your noob corp griefed is...don't start a noob corp. I had a lot of fun in mine, but somehow we didn't attract the pummeling that others seem to. I don't know if we got lucky or just didn't look like good targets but we had maybe a total of four weeks at war, and most of that time we were able to continue operating as normal.
The solution can never be to give free passes to new players. They need to understand Eve for what it is, not have the rug yanked out from under them after a period of guaranteed safety. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Fango Mango
University of Caille Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 23:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:This is a pretty serious issue I keep running into where far more experienced players just keep stomping on newer ones.
Idiotic pirates are seriously getting irritating for running my noob corp.
There needs to be some kind of protection to keep more experienced players messing with newer ones.
There should be 1 month of protection from being attacked by other players from the point a character is created. Especially for new players. They can break this one month by attacking another player themselves.
Or just something.
I'll leave it for you guys at CCP to figure out, but the current system rewards experienced players attacking much newer ones way to much.
Here is the real solution to your problem . . .
1) Move to low sec.
2) Learn to survive (yes you will get popped and podded). Learn from every mistake.
3) 2 weeks later, move to Null sec, move back to high sec, or just stay in low sec. You will prepared for them all.
-FM |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
628
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 23:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Simple solution. CCP makes a few special systems that only new folks can go to. The catch is, you can't do anything there except listen in the help channels. No docking, no shooting, no activation of modules, no chatting.
Ok I'm slightly trolling.
Non troll: there isn't any real way to make a "safe" rookie setup that can't be abused and/or would work. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1117
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 00:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Simple solution. CCP makes a few special systems that only new folks can go to. The catch is, you can't do anything there except listen in the help channels. No docking, no shooting, no activation of modules, no chatting.
Actually, they've already done this (and thrown in chat for good measure). And they've put the darn things everywhere too. They're called "stations". From the complete and total security of a station you can go about listening to help channels and even asking questions to your heart's content. |
Emiko Luan
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
50
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 06:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
There are solutions to your issues, join a corp that can defend itself, stay in npc corp, the game doesn't change for you, you change your tactics so that you succeed. It's like real life.
Making a corp should cost more. When ccp increases the wardec cost, corp creation should go up as much to discourage the unprepared.
CCP spoke about this at fanfest, and they want to make pve a lot more like pvp so people are more prepared. +welcome to my world+ http://venomzer0.deviantart.com |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
415
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Emiko Luan wrote:they want to make pve a lot more like pvp The new and updated mission guide:
1) Warp in, engage the overseer.
2) Overseer pops cyno.
3) Get titan bridged by 300 NPC T3s.
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
510
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eve's new marketing scheme is entitled "eve is hard". You've just found out one of the reasons why.
As has been mentioned in this thread already, you are being targeted. a new corp full of new players? Your corp simply screams "fresh meat, easy kills, come get your stat-padding!".
There are three ways you can deal with this:
1. Suck it up, get better, learn to use underhanded tactics like blobbing, finding and deccing their alts and timezone warfare, beat them back, become good at PvP. Trial by fire.
2. Back down, move into either the NPC corp or an older corp, take a longer, softer run up at things, become good at PvP or PvE, as you desire. Slow but certain learning.
3. ***** on the forums, receive no sympathy, eventually leave the game and go play something easier. Pussying out.
Noob protection will get you nothing, because the time is irrelevant. SP is not what wins fights. Goonswarm carved out its own section of 0.0 using tech 1 frigates on 10 day old characters, beating back 4 year veterans in heavy assault cruisers. They did it with a combination of numbers and balls. You need to learn to PvP, to be good at PvP. That's got nothing to do with SP.
PvP is 50% skill, 30% sufficiently large *********, 15% inside information and 5% skillpoints.
We could implement a 30 spawn protection for you, pushing back the time before you have to learn PvP by 30 days.
The only thing this would do is make your clones more expensive when you first start exploding.
So no. You might not like or accept it, but exploding now will make you a better player, and save you isk in the long run. Ishtar Starfire: As a pure caldari pilot i feel that with the deployment of the new tier 3 battlecruisers you have given an unfair advantage to everyone except caldari pilots. an example would be like giving a fat kid a whole cake while the skinny kid has to watch and get nothing.
|
|
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
*rolls eyes*
Wow you people are aggressive. Talk about overreacting to a suggestion. |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
eve's setting is "you own/can do/can claim/whatever that which you have the strength to hold/do"... if a group of new players want to form a corp they are putting themselves into the position of saying "we are going to stand on our own in the larger eco system of new eden" ... which might sound like a good idea, but in that eco system is a lot of bigger, meaner and hungrier corps looking for a snack.
You are basing your idea on the assumption that players who don't know the game mechanics, who are not very strong and don't understand the eco system have some sort of right to being allowed to do what they want.
That assumption is completely contra to the setting of eve. There is no "rights" other than, "I have a gun big enough to enforce what I think".
Corps in Eve are very much not guilds per a few other mmos. Guilds are just social grouping, or a pretty colour/tabard/whatever. Eve has those, they are called chat channels... Corps put you on the food chain of the eco system. Curiosity killed the Kata...
... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count. |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:*rolls eyes*
Wow you people are aggressive. Talk about overreacting to a suggestion.
*shrugs*
you made a suggestion threatening the environment the eco system lives in... it reacted by trying to squash the threat... yet more Eve Curiosity killed the Kata...
... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count. |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
derp Curiosity killed the Kata...
... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count. |
SGT FUNYOUN
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Bringers of Death.
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
1) Life isn't fair.
2) Space is cold and harsh. Like me.
3) Quit whining like a WOW player.
4) Grow up and quit asking the world to give you the things you want and instead learn to take them.
5) Eve is cold and harsh as the OXYGENLESS VOID of SPACE it is SET IN!!! Get used to it.
6) This isn't WOW where the GM's coddle every newbie and reprogram the game to their every innane whim. Grow up and learn there is NO ONE here to coddle you and tell you you're special because guess what... you're not.
7) You are a flesh covered bag of bones and meat; a walking corpse like everyone else. And I am going to find your Character and kill it. I will pod you everytime I see your shiny baby's bottom smooth face. Why?
Because this is Sci-Fi. It is just as cold and harsh as the space it is set in. And I am even harsher.
Either sell your ship and go back to that wimps game WOW you obviously came from...
... or man up, get bigger guns, and come face me.
You'll find me in Null Sec.
But remember this one thing...
...you keep what you kill. |
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
FWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wow, I kind of feel like pulling up a bag of popcorn and watching this thread. Some of you are pretty immature.
FYI, I've never even played WOW. I'm not saying coddle us, I'm saying balance the damn system. It was a REQUEST, you do not have to CRUSH me for it.
CCP is basically hurting themselves by not doing anything about this problem. They are going to get less people being consistent subscribers because they do not know the right way to introduce a new player to the system. I have no problem with a long learning curve, what I have a problem with is experienced players abusing the fact that their experienced by hounding on newer players.
It isn't FAIR, and before you start spouting a bunch of stupid crap again, this is a game, BALANCE is IMPORTANT whether you LIKE IT OR NOT.
Just being experienced yourself pretty much invalidates your opinion in a thread about introducing new players into the system anyways, so if your not going to contribute something useful, go away and stop trolling. Why don't we go back to working together to find a solution to a serious problem? |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
510
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 12:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:CCP is basically hurting themselves by not doing anything about this problem. 8 years of persistent growth makes a liar of you.
Eve is a niche game. Apparently it's not for you. Ishtar Starfire: As a pure caldari pilot i feel that with the deployment of the new tier 3 battlecruisers you have given an unfair advantage to everyone except caldari pilots. an example would be like giving a fat kid a whole cake while the skinny kid has to watch and get nothing.
|
Niko DelValle
Promethium Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:Niko DelValle wrote:CCP is basically hurting themselves by not doing anything about this problem. 8 years of persistent growth makes a liar of you. Eve is a niche game. Apparently it's not for you.
I'm no liar, just because it's growing doesn't mean they aren't losing subscribers. Maybe you should get your postman to deliver some common sense.
Also, FYI, I like EVE. So apparently the only liar is you. |
SGT FUNYOUN
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Bringers of Death.
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote:FWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wow, I kind of feel like pulling up a bag of popcorn and watching this thread. Some of you are pretty immature.
FYI, I've never even played WOW. I'm not saying coddle us, I'm saying balance the damn system. It was a REQUEST, you do not have to CRUSH me for it.
CCP is basically hurting themselves by not doing anything about this problem. They are going to get less people being consistent subscribers because they do not know the right way to introduce a new player to the system. I have no problem with a long learning curve, what I have a problem with is experienced players abusing the fact that their experienced by hounding on newer players.
It isn't FAIR, and before you start spouting a bunch of stupid crap again, this is a game, BALANCE is IMPORTANT whether you LIKE IT OR NOT.
Just being experienced yourself pretty much invalidates your opinion in a thread about introducing new players into the system anyways, so if your not going to contribute something useful, go away and stop trolling. Why don't we go back to working together to find a solution to a serious problem?
No your wrong there..
I DO have to crush you for it. I HATE overpriveleged little whiners who think the whole world should cater to your every little whim.
I am coming for you.
Look for the Wardecs and the spies. I am making you my own personal little target.
Why?
BECAUSE I CAN!!!
And that's the beauty of it. And there is not one thing you can do to stop me except...
...play the game like everyone else.
To play in a ruthless, lawless, cold, harsh environment where your next breath is not even guaranteed...
...YOU must be as cold, heartless, and ruthless as it.
Welcome to my world. You have two options.
FIGHT for what is yours and not only EARN some respect but TAKE IT!!!
Or rage quit like every other little whiner who jumps on these threads and cries about how a game designed around the one environment that will kill you as soon as look at you, is not "fair".
You define fair as not being able to do what you want without consequences.
Well then by your logic...
I am the consequences. And I am fair. I blast everyone apart equally. In to star dust.
I lost my first ship to a gang of NPC DED Space Cosmos Rats because I ventured out into a high sec area I did not know.
I lost my first Destroyer to a band of Pirates because I was foolishly missioning in low sec.
I was pissed at them too.
Know what I did?
I got over it, and then I got better.
THEN I podded them. And now that I have my vindication...
...they are still there, in that same solar system, popping newbs like you.
Grab your hmm hmm's, man up, and go in there guns a blazing. You want others to leave you alone?
Then TAKE from them what is yours. TAKE your respect. And they will give it. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1223
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Niko DelValle wrote: I'm saying balance the damn system.
That's where you make your mistake. There *IS* no "balance" in a system like Eve. It was never intended to be balanced. If you only have the skills to fly a T1 cruiser, I'm going to melt your face with my Proteus. There's nothing CCP can do to balance that without making the long-term value of Eve disappear. I still play this game because every month or two, I can get new toys. I can do new things. I keep adding skills and finding new ways to use them. The only way to balance Eve so that a 2004 player can't stomp me, and I can't stomp you, is to make it so stupidly simple that most of us wouldn't stay, because it would stop being interesting.
What's more, any attempt at protecting new players to the extent you seem to be advocating would not end well. There are always creative bastards like me who will find every possible method of using such a mechanic to screw over my enemies. Remember how I said that we have to mitigate the advantages older and richer players have over us? Yeah. I don't always fight fair, because Eve isn't about fair fights. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |