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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 30/09/2008 16:35:02 Right now, Eve is plagued with limits on how much we can say. A forum post can't be more than 4000 characters. A bio is even shorter, and an EveMail is shorter yet. Even the notepad in game, which should specifically be for storing huge gobs of text you can't put anywhere else, is apparently having a fairly short character limit imposed upon it.
This is stupid and counterproductive. Instead of making one forum post when I have something long to say, I need to make five. Instead of sending one corp mail with intel, I need to send three. This adds overhead to the system, and makes the player experience more annoying.
Take all character limits anywhere even close to the game, and either eliminate them entirely or make them so large as to have no meaning. If you want to make us have a 100000 character limit on a forum post, I won't object too strenuously - anyone writing a novella can handle a bit of chapterization. But the limits should not interfere with the play experience of average players - someone who wants to ramble for a couple pages in their bio, or discuss a mildly complex business deal via EveMail, or post more than three dozen links in a forum post, should be allowed to do so without any restrictions.
Also, it should be noted that a thread similar to this, related to bio lengths specifically, has already been sent to CCP. However, since the problem affects more than that, I'm posting this in hopes that the solution will as well. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:30:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 30/09/2008 16:35:02 Right now, Eve is plagued with limits on how much we can say. A forum post can't be more than 4000 characters. A bio is even shorter, and an EveMail is shorter yet. Even the notepad in game, which should specifically be for storing huge gobs of text you can't put anywhere else, is apparently having a fairly short character limit imposed upon it.
This is stupid and counterproductive. Instead of making one forum post when I have something long to say, I need to make five. Instead of sending one corp mail with intel, I need to send three. This adds overhead to the system, and makes the player experience more annoying.
Take all character limits anywhere even close to the game, and either eliminate them entirely or make them so large as to have no meaning. If you want to make us have a 100000 character limit on a forum post, I won't object too strenuously - anyone writing a novella can handle a bit of chapterization. But the limits should not interfere with the play experience of average players - someone who wants to ramble for a couple pages in their bio, or discuss a mildly complex business deal via EveMail, or post more than three dozen links in a forum post, should be allowed to do so without any restrictions.
Also, it should be noted that a thread similar to this, related to bio lengths specifically, has already been sent to CCP. However, since the problem affects more than that, I'm posting this in hopes that the solution will as well. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 30/09/2008 16:50:02
I support the principle whole-heartedly.
But.
Forums won't change until they bring in more development effort and re-do the whole thing.
As you noted - we've already submitted an issue on the bio length and will be arguing about the outcome when we get our chat with the devs.
Re the other text limits - yes it needs to be sorted out for sure. But one thing you need to be sure of is that larger text limits in chat won't be exploited by cheating players in-game to gain an advantage over their enemies.
Eve is a game where people have invented can spamming, bookmark bombs, shuttle explosions, and all sorts of dodgy techniques to gain an advantage over their virtual foes - think "whats the worst thing a bunch of exploiters can do with this change" when suggesting an increase to game functionality that impacts bandwidth issues.
Sad to say that decent adult players do suffer by sharing the playground with people prepared to exploit the system to gain an advantage in virtual war.
But saying that - by all means lets construct an issue that makes sense in general terms and see if we can't thrash out a compromise that lets us type more without delivering the mechanics into the hands of people who will use it to spam their enemies with 10,000 character rude images to lag out jump in fleets.
... nothing ever burns down by itself
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:10:00 -
[4]
You raise a few good points. Bios have already been asked about, and forums are also in the works to my understanding. The mail system should likewise be fixed wholesale, and not just having a character limit increased - we need a sentbox, an address book, options on how to read it, and elimination of character limits, not just one of those. It's only really the notepad that needs to be addressed singly. I stuck them together to make a point about how the game should work as much as I did because the topics have never been addressed before.
Regarding utility as a lag bomb, the obvious solution is pagination. Every 10000 characters, have a little arrow at the bottom to go forward or back a page. Something similar should be done with Hardin's corp history - I tried loading that once, it took multiple minutes. I doubt many would use something like a bio, which gets read in a lot of contexts, few of them enemies in combat, as a lag bomb, but even if only for bandwidth reasons I can support automatically splitting it into pages.
My goal here is to allow people to carry on business without artificial and unnecessary limits. The details of that, as you say, are up for debate. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Irongut
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.10.01 02:17:00 -
[5]
Every patch seems to make the mail length shorter and I have problems with it on a regular basis. I used to have a nice bio too but then that got chopped by CCP. Longer ship names would be good too, not huge but a bit longer please.
--
The future is Black. Brace for Impact! |
Lia Gaeren
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.10.01 07:21:00 -
[6]
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.10.01 07:37:00 -
[7]
Fix this. If CCP care about disk space that much then they should upgrade, but compression could be implemented (clientside for anyone complaining about 'lol lag') This is not part of my sig. |
Jin Labarre
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Posted - 2008.10.02 01:35:00 -
[8]
Supported
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Treelox
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.02 01:44:00 -
[9]
I still cry myself to sleep at night with all the goodness and great quotes that were lost in my Bio after it had been nerfed.
Kernels of wisdom forever lost.... --
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Mihailo Great
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.02 13:14:00 -
[10]
supported!
also, when you copy a link in-game (item, character, url) please let it paste as a link and not in code
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.05 18:01:00 -
[11]
In the process of changing my signature, I've come across another text length limit - sigs are limited to like 200 characters, which effectively means you can't have more than one link in it. There should be limits on sig size, in the sense of making sure that they don't dominate a page when you're reading them, but you should be able to put in a bunch of links if you want to. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.05 19:11:00 -
[12]
It's important to make the distinction between character limits on in-game mechanisms, and out-of-game ones. Out of game, the limit could be relaxed, although as others quite rightly point out some players will ramble on and on and on...
In-game, the limit is there to prevent exploits. CCP are pretty clear about this and are looking at alternate ways of fixing it (for some future point). Mail is getting a revamp, so expect some fixing there (I'm hoping for a 'Sent items' folder option!).
It's a shame that players choose to exploit such innocuous looking areas of the game system, I'll live with the character limit rather than the consequences of exploitation any day though!
For a fuller update, read the latest CSM/CCP notes when released later in the week.
Take care, Arithron
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:29:00 -
[13]
no [hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 10:18:00 -
[14]
My understanding is that larger limits can cause strain on the database.
Whilst the in-game mail length can be a problem, the max length for forum posts should be sufficient for most purposes - if you really understand the point that you want to make, you shouldn't have any difficulty making it concisely.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rodj Blake My understanding is that larger limits can cause strain on the database.
Whilst the in-game mail length can be a problem, the max length for forum posts should be sufficient for most purposes - if you really understand the point that you want to make, you shouldn't have any difficulty making it concisely.
Bah, you just hate long posts you damned Amarrian zealot!
But seriously - the forum post issue will get resolved at the point that CCP overhaul the forum software. There's no real point us promoting or advocating "improve forumz!" issues because CCP know there is a problem, know what they have to do, have scheduled improvements in the coming year and its just a matter of waiting and seeing there.
On the issue of concise point making - well as a fan of impassioned rhetoric I'm obviously going to disagree with you but there are some kinds of posts it would be nice to have in single inputs - war diaries, stories, ic pieces, recognition threads, resource lists, etc etc. So lets not tl:dr ideological purity blind us to practical advantage there.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.06 19:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rodj Blake My understanding is that larger limits can cause strain on the database.
Whilst the in-game mail length can be a problem, the max length for forum posts should be sufficient for most purposes - if you really understand the point that you want to make, you shouldn't have any difficulty making it concisely.
It's text. Even without compression, assuming a million evemails a day are sent(which there aren't), making them all 3x as long as the current limit(which they won't be) will add about a gig of data. A gig of storage space, at current prices, costs about a quarter for the home user, and presumably a fair bit less when you buy hard drives by the hundred or thousand. The gig of bandwidth to transfer that data costs the home user about another quarter, and CCP certainly gets a better deal on that than you or I. So even for me personally to hold and serve the data will cost about $15/month, and for CCP it's probably more like $10/month. In other words, a single additional subscription, even at annual rates.
As for forum posts, while this is sort of a moot point because it's getting fixed, anyone who can say it in 4000 characters probably still will - most people don't like typing all that much. For those who do(like, say, me and Jade), they'll split it into multiple posts when needed anyways, which doesn't save space at all. All you'll do is get rid of those absurd "Reserved" posts that the current system requires. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
W3370Pi4
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:08:00 -
[17]
i ONLY support this for eve mail and bio. forum post of chat post are totally fine with me ********************************************** Vitreous Mercoxit ! What else ***************************************** |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: W3370Pi4 i ONLY support this for eve mail and bio. forum post of chat post are totally fine with me
BIG Lottery |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:22:00 -
[19]
Well, text limits turns out to be in place to prevent exploits.
CCP doesn't want to discuss exploits. So really, there's not much we can do
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.10.08 12:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Well, text limits turns out to be in place to prevent exploits.
CCP doesn't want to discuss exploits. So really, there's not much we can do
Maybe CCP should fix those exploits?
Even just increasing limits would be good, e.g. 2x the limit for bio, mail and notes.
Also, it needs some kind of indication when it is over the limit (or even preventing you from adding more), notes has one but it only gives a warning when it is a lot over the limit and not a bit, if it is only a bit over the limit then first thing you know is when you open it and see the end has been cut off. This is not part of my sig.
...Or is it? |
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 14:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Well, text limits turns out to be in place to prevent exploits.
CCP doesn't want to discuss exploits. So really, there's not much we can do
There are a couple corner cases where unlimited lengths would indeed be exploitable - for example, using your bio as a lag bomb, as mentioned above. It would be woefully indiscriminate, but it would break the game for the poor sap who looks at you. That sort of thing does need to be avoided, which is why I mentioned pagination above. But aside from that I'm really confused by what they could be referring to. If it's possible to put a virus or similar into the game by typing it in plaintext, they really need to work on their security measures. And if they're referring to players putting so much stuff in that it overflows their system, I did say that I was fine with limits that didn't interfere with most user experiences.
I know CCP won't discuss exploits(and I concur with that policy, for that matter), and so I don't suspect that we'll ever have an answer to this. But still, I really wish I knew what they were talking about.
In any case, note my edited proposal above - it's still worth bringing forward IMO, since it gives CCP room to deal with these concerns while still hopefully getting this issue at least partially addressed. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Liranan
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.10.09 13:56:00 -
[22]
I want to be able to type 4582045756674 letter walls of text in the help channel too for the lulz. Imagine that! Wouldn't it be great if you could type so many letters you could block out everyone else's chat?
I will vote for this but I would change the topic to: "I want to be able to spam at hearts content so can I have a permanent mute placed on me?" That should make OP happy, right? Farjung is my God |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liranan I want to be able to type 4582045756674 letter walls of text in the help channel too for the lulz. Imagine that! Wouldn't it be great if you could type so many letters you could block out everyone else's chat?
I will vote for this but I would change the topic to: "I want to be able to spam at hearts content so can I have a permanent mute placed on me?" That should make OP happy, right?
Anyone who wants to do that already can - shift-enter is a lolspammer's best friend. The worst part about that being that you can't mute them, because the text scrolls too fast for you to be able to get a clean right-click onto their name(which is mostly the fault of an error in how text channels work in Eve, but that's a different topic).
Anything can be abused by morons - such is the nature of morons. You might as well at least let the legitimate users use it too, so that CSM meetings(for example) don't have all this confusion of text limit vs done talking. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
GusHobbleton
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.10.09 23:19:00 -
[24]
Also increase the limit on character names, and most especially ship names (this includes starbases and anchorable cans). You can't have the -A- Fuer und Wasser III without, you know, the und Wasser III. |
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