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Raven Vs. Rokh Vs. Cerberus Vs. CNR

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Author	Topic
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Soporo on 01/10/2008 17:06:24 If you're having early difficulties with the Raven, consider using a Cap Booster and carry a bunch of 800's. It can be a great help. Also be sure to use the mission/rat specific hardeners, at least 2 or 3 of them. Oh, and t2 Drones are a must. Pain to train for them but necessary for the scram frigs you will encounter.
Maximum Overhaul	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:07:00 - [32] Edited by: Maximum Overhaul on 01/10/2008 18:11:24 You might want to try looking at Command ships, you are already on your way to it with Battlecruiser and heavy missiles, you'll just need to invest a few skill points in Leadership. The tank on a Nighthawk is just ridiculously strong. It's no slouch when it comes to DPS either. After a while when you have the LP for it, Caldari Navy launchers. I easily reach out over 70km with rate of fire of under 5 seconds. The Caldari Navy missiles are nice(don't forget the Caldari Navy Ballistic Control units). The small drone bay on the ship kinda stinks but with Drone Interfacing and T2 smalls, they take care of frigs and even cruisers with ease. Depending on the mission I usually take out the cruisers first anyway. I am an accomplished Raven pilot myself (BS V), just no T2 cruise or torp. I have run lvl 4s with corpmates - me in my Nighthawk, them in T2 cruise Raven and its fun to race to kill the BSes first :) Edit: and once you get into the Nighthawk, that Drake you've been using in lvl 3s makes a handy loot/salvage ship.
Dieyno Mieyght	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Harrent Edited by: Harrent on 01/10/2008 11:58:48 Edited by: Harrent on 01/10/2008 11:52:39 I have BS III and Spaceship Command V. I think i will throw BS up to V before i change back into the raven. I lost my last raven by going into a higher level IV with only 1 assistant. While he had to jet due to his shield doing down i sat and got hammered, scram, and webbed. Raven inevitably blew up, which brought me to my knees as i had just gotten all T2 parts fitted to it, i lost about 80M on the deal. How do you avoid this problem? Basically - agro management. Also, watch who is putting status affects on you in the overview for those pesky warp scramblers and direct your drones accordingly. Get a nighthawk :P What do you mean by "higher level IV" ? As far as I can tell, and I've been running missions for a couple years....LVL 4 is LVL 4 as far as difficulty, period. The quality level dictates your agent reward, Lp and faction standing increase. If you are going to be a long time mission runner, invest in some Social skills.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.01 19:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Dieyno Mieyght What do you mean by "higher level IV" ? As far as I can tell, and I've been running missions for a couple years....LVL 4 is LVL 4 as far as difficulty, period. The quality level dictates your agent reward, Lp and faction standing increase. If you are going to be a long time mission runner, invest in some Social skills. edit: I'm pretty sure security rating of the system where the agent is plays into the rewards as well I think he ment "harder" level 4. Like World Collides or Blockade. Which can turn into a real PITA if you shoot the wrong rats. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Dieyno Mieyght	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:28:00 - [35] Heh, how ahout Enemies Abound 5 of 5, that's a fun one
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:52:00 - [36] Golem is way more economical with 4 Launchers, compared to CNR with 7. Several Golem pilots I know, use navy missiles. Something I would never do with my CNR. Only thing I think is absolutely necessary are T2 drones. Even if your missile skills are fubar, the drones will save your ass if things go south. Cruise missiles 4 and most support skills at 3/4 will do, as long as your tanking skills are at 4-5 and you've got T2 Drohnes to kill scrambler frigs.
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:55:00 - [37] Thanks everyone who replied to this! It was a great help to figure out which direction i will take, i think in the end the Command ship "Nighthawk" seems to be the best choice as i'm sure its viable in PVP as well as PvE. Only downside is its going to take weeks to train, but in the meantime i can get most of the lower level agents up to an 8.0 rating via II's and III's in my drake. Thanks again! Semper Fi
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Harrent Thanks everyone who replied to this! It was a great help to figure out which direction i will take, i think in the end the Command ship "Nighthawk" seems to be the best choice as i'm sure its viable in PVP as well as PvE. Only downside is its going to take weeks to train, but in the meantime i can get most of the lower level agents up to an 8.0 rating via II's and III's in my drake. Thanks again! The raven is a much, much better PVP ship than the nighthawk, which has crap fitting, barely outdamages the drake, is expensive and not significantly insurable, and doesn't outtank the drake by much either. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:08:00 - [39] Edited by: Gypsio III on 02/10/2008 11:09:10 The Nighthawk isn't a particularly great mission ship either - a Raven can generally do everything that it can do, and do it better. The only area where it has an advantage is when there's a LOT of cruisers and frigs to shoot. And it's unusable in PVP.
destiny2	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:21:00 - [40] well for starters your not gonna get a CNR for 150 mill isk the rokh is designed to be a sniper vessel so some say. The raven is great for missions better than the rokh of course. The rokh id say is better for pvp than the raven if you find a sweet setup and have the skills to use them. The cerebrus is good although i havent much experiance with em

BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Harrent Thanks everyone who replied to this! It was a great help to figure out which direction i will take, i think in the end the Command ship "Nighthawk" seems to be the best choice as i'm sure its viable in PVP as well as PvE. Only downside is its going to take weeks to train, but in the meantime i can get most of the lower level agents up to an 8.0 rating via II's and III's in my drake. Thanks again! The raven is a much, much better PVP ship than the nighthawk, which has crap fitting, barely outdamages the drake, is expensive and not significantly insurable, and doesn't outtank the drake by much either. This sadly Awesome EVE history
destiny2	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:33:00 - [42] any ship is good depends how you outfit it. Weather it is shield passive active passive armour tank watever. You just gotta have the skills to make the fittings count. We can give you ideas yes. But in the end it is your decision on what you want to take on the field for PVE or PVP
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 12:55:00 - [43] Edited by: Harrent on 02/10/2008 12:56:48 Comparing nighthawk to drake... --- Well, im confused now as the nighthawk has more resists to its shield, keeping the small sig radius and adds another 25% to Kin dmg and 25% to missle precision with fully trained skills. How is it so horrible then? Semper Fi
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:13:00 - [44] So is everyone suggesting that a Raven would just be the best bet instead of sticking with a BC class ship? Semper Fi
MarcusD	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:18:00 - [45] Originally by: DubanFP I don't know why you think golem is better then the CNR. The golem doesn't even have a damage bonus. Golem 4 * 2 "the role bonus" = 8 effective launchers. CNR 7 launchers * 1.25 = 8.75 effecive launchers. Basically the CNR's superior damage will make you isk that much faster. Sure the golem's tank helps, in theory, but more damage kills enemies faster and makes you more isk. Tanking won't increase your isk flow and if you could tank them before why do you need extra tank that you won't use? Sorry man but the golem has 100% to damage and 100% to missle velocity, 7.5% bonus to shield boost per level 7 mid slots vs CNR has 6. 100% bonus to tractor beam distance (40km) and a 1225m3 cargo space. You can mission and salvage all the same time, So the golem is much more effcient at making money, no having to fly back and salvage. The Golem is superior to the CNR, and unless you can fly a golem, which you probably can't which is why you are saying the CNR is better.. but its not. The golem tank is soo much better then the CNR you don't need to run any power mods,
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Ieldan The setup isnt bad, Its your skills mate You have 1.5 mill in missile all together, u need to get that up. To be decenlty effective u need to be at about 5-6 million, all the support skills to lvl 5 and specs to lvl 4. What are your shield skills like as well? Till then stick in the drake. A drake with proper fittings can do most lvl4's. Dont make the mistake of thinking bigger is better. I call shenanigans on this. I have significantly less than 1.5M (closer to 600k) in missiles and I don't have any issues with level 4's. Basically here are some of the issues I see with this setup : 1) Invulns - as mentioned don't help as much as rat specific hardeners. 2) Shield Boost Amps - only help when you're boosting, don't help at all with general damage control. 3) Should try to find a way to put some BCU's on there. Even 1 or 2 will greatly improve your results. 4) Need to learn how to deal with missions. Namely, use eve-survival to figure out what the names of the scramming frigates are and make them your priority. Generally for me its something like this : Priority 1 - Neut towers. Priority 2 - Scram frigates. Priority 3 - Highest DPS reduction in the shortest amount of time, usually battlecruisers then cruisers then battleships since I can almost one volley most BC's/cruisers. 5) Manage aggro - don't make the whole room shoot at you if it can be avoided. 6) In level IV's its good to have nice drone skills - these will help more with scramming frigates than missile skills. 7) You should always be aligned to a planet or station that you can warp to if "stuff hits the fan".
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:36:00 - [47] Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven. CNR if you want a cool shiny ship.
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Harrent Edited by: Harrent on 02/10/2008 12:56:48 Comparing nighthawk to drake... --- Well, im confused now as the nighthawk has more resists to its shield, keeping the small sig radius and adds another 25% to Kin dmg and 25% to missle precision with fully trained skills. How is it so horrible then? Futher research leads me to find it has bigger cargo (floating off of the post above) therefore salvage would be easier if i were to do that for missioning. BOOSTS from drake (stock) Negatives: -13% less shields (same recharge rate = less hp / sec) - 1 rig slot - - 1 med and high slot (prob wont use high anyway due to energy req's) Positives: - + 1 low slot -22.2 more Kin resist natively (or about 1.5x what the drake had) -34.37 more Therm resist natively (or about 1.8x what the drake had) - about 1.8x the cargo space - 188 more cap units (1% increase) - 12% increase in cap recharge time Semper Fi
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Megan Maynard Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven. CNR if you want a cool shiny ship. Anyone know what CNR's are going for now adays? Semper Fi
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Harrent Edited by: Harrent on 02/10/2008 12:56:48 Comparing nighthawk to drake... --- Well, im confused now as the nighthawk has more resists to its shield, keeping the small sig radius and adds another 25% to Kin dmg and 25% to missle precision with fully trained skills. How is it so horrible then? It's not horrible. It's just that it doesn't really offer anything over the Raven. The extra resists of the NH are countered by its one fewer midslot. The sig radius is not hugely smaller than that of a Raven once shield rigs and LSEs are fitted to the NH. The main attraction of the NH is its capless passive tank, allowing people to go AFK and answer the phone etc. But you can setup a permaboosting XLSB Raven that will allow you to do the same, but with better DPS. The Nighthawk is certainly better against smaller targets, like frigates and cruisers. But most of the HP in a mission is in the BS and BCs, and Cruise hits these just fine, so it matters little. Urgh, I've just read that you were actually comparing the Drake with the Nighthawk. I'm not clear if you were talking about PVE or PVP though. For PVE, yes the NH is better than the Drake - but a Raven is better still. For PVP, the Nighthawk offers very little over a Drake in terms of tank and gank (and again is inferior to the Raven), while having much less flexibility because of the one fewer midslot. The sole area where the NH has a meaningful advantage over the Drake or Raven is its ability to fit a gang mod - but it can't actually fit it because of woefully inadequate PG.

Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:20:00 - [51] Final synopsis, get a raven, work toward the CNR... Semper Fi
Katabrok First Caldari Star Mandate	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Dieyno Mieyght Heh, how ahout Enemies Abound 5 of 5, that's a fun one Well, i did enemies abound 5/5 in a rokh solo, if that means anything. Kata Uma vez flamengo, sempre flamengo.
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Katabrok First Originally by: Dieyno Mieyght Heh, how ahout Enemies Abound 5 of 5, that's a fun one Well, i did enemies abound 5/5 in a rokh solo, if that means anything. Which ship would you say you like better ROKH or Raven? Semper Fi
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:34:00 - [54] Edited by: Last Wolf on 02/10/2008 15:34:44 Nighthawk is awesome. Don't passive tank it and you'll have plenty of grid Don't passive tank it and you'll have room for 3/4 BCU Don't passive tank it and you'll have a great tank, from 100% to 0% shields, not only at ~33% Don't passive tank it and you'll have more fun (Only my opinion of course) Granted I have Commandship V and BS isn't even trained. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Katabrok First Caldari Star Mandate	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Harrent Originally by: Katabrok First Originally by: Dieyno Mieyght Heh, how ahout Enemies Abound 5 of 5, that's a fun one Well, i did enemies abound 5/5 in a rokh solo, if that means anything. Which ship would you say you like better ROKH or Raven? Man, i love the rokh. I dont fly a raven anymore because I think that it is too boring. But it needs high gunnery skill levels to shine. Mine are here. Kata Uma vez flamengo, sempre flamengo.
Azeryn	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence I call shenanigans on this. I have significantly less than 1.5M (closer to 600k) in missiles and I don't have any issues with level 4's. Basically here are some of the issues I see with this setup : 1) Invulns - as mentioned don't help as much as rat specific hardeners. 2) Shield Boost Amps - only help when you're boosting, don't help at all with general damage control. 3) Should try to find a way to put some BCU's on there. Even 1 or 2 will greatly improve your results. 4) Need to learn how to deal with missions. Namely, use eve-survival to figure out what the names of the scramming frigates are and make them your priority. Generally for me its something like this : Priority 1 - Neut towers. Priority 2 - Scram frigates. Priority 3 - Highest DPS reduction in the shortest amount of time, usually battlecruisers then cruisers then battleships since I can almost one volley most BC's/cruisers. 5) Manage aggro - don't make the whole room shoot at you if it can be avoided. 6) In level IV's its good to have nice drone skills - these will help more with scramming frigates than missile skills. 7) You should always be aligned to a planet or station that you can warp to if "stuff hits the fan". Edited to add: I think I see your problem. You have missile SP but not enough in the ones that matter. And your engineering skills aren't very good. In terms of training, I recommend improving Rapid Launch and Guided Missile precision and take cruise missiles to 4 and Caldari Battleship to 4 at least. For shields you're going to want to get energy systems operations to 5, energy management to 4 or 5, shield management to 4/5, shield operation to 5, shield compensation to 4. I'll also add here that, for pure survivability, drone link augmentor is not going to help much. That's something that lets you take out battleships faster and that is all it does. Before I could fit Nosferatu's there I put 2x 150 II's small railguns to help my drones take out scramming frigates as an extra measure of safety. Finally, if you're having lots of problems tanking a DCU might at least let you survive long enough to do a warp out - but obviously its a temporary thing until your cap management and tanking skills improve. This. From what I gathered from your posts, you simply lost your raven because you tried to complete a hard level 4 in the wrong way. There are lots of sites out there with reports on every given mission, with all the tips and tricks needed to complete them with minimum hassle. Another thing, am I the only one thinking that doing level 3 missions in a Drake after 7 months is a little absurd? Level 3 pay so much less than level 4 that sticking to them for months after being able to fly lvl4 is hardly logical. And surely unprofitable... I am a 2 months caldari player, and I started flying my Raven 1 week ago. I have 600k SP in missiles, 550k SP in Engeneering, 100k in drones. With this abysmal skills (on an absolute, I think I am doing fine for a 2 months account) I can still put out 100+ more DPS with the Raven compared to my old trusty Drake, tough with a weaker tank, still ok for every single mission I tried anyway. Maybe I can not tank the bonus stage in Angels Extravaganza o Enemies Abound 5 (I don't know, have not tried yet), but I could easily skip those missions and do all the others. Sure, my 325 DPS (figure taken from my current setup in EFT) is not optimal or fast, but it sure does the job, and I can look forward to 600 dps with maxed out skills and some named equipment in the future. Imho, Drakes and level3 missions are ok, but as soon as you can fly a Raven while retaining a sufficent tank and get an higher DPS, you should switch ships and take on level4s. Just make sure you read about every mission you plan to accept: some are easy, others can be, but only if you do not shoot some ships before others, or you do not deploy drones, etc...
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:05:00 - [57] Edited by: Harrent on 02/10/2008 16:06:46 Quote: This. From what I gathered from your posts, you simply lost your raven because you tried to complete a hard level 4 in the wrong way. There are lots of sites out there with reports on every given mission, with all the tips and tricks needed to complete them with minimum hassle. Another thing, am I the only one thinking that doing level 3 missions in a Drake after 7 months is a little absurd? Level 3 pay so much less than level 4 that sticking to them for months after being able to fly lvl4 is hardly logical. And surely unprofitable... I am a 2 months caldari player, and I started flying my Raven 1 week ago. I have 600k SP in missiles, 550k SP in Engeneering, 100k in drones. With this abysmal skills (on an absolute, I think I am doing fine for a 2 months account) I can still put out 100+ more DPS with the Raven compared to my old trusty Drake, tough with a weaker tank, still ok for every single mission I tried anyway. Maybe I can not tank the bonus stage in Angels Extravaganza o Enemies Abound 5 (I don't know, have not tried yet), but I could easily skip those missions and do all the others. Sure, my 325 DPS (figure taken from my current setup in EFT) is not optimal or fast, but it sure does the job, and I can look forward to 600 dps with maxed out skills and some named equipment in the future. Imho, Drakes and level3 missions are ok, but as soon as you can fly a Raven while retaining a sufficent tank and get an higher DPS, you should switch ships and take on level4s. Just make sure you read about every mission you plan to accept: some are easy, others can be, but only if you do not shoot some ships before others, or you do not deploy drones, etc... Very true, i did not account for my partner aggroing some of the other npc's therefore i paid the price. Just wondering overall what would be the best route. I have ran IV's in a Ferox before and then in the Raven i had before blowing up, so im not a stranger to the deadly dance that you play while in a IV. I have seen other people in corp untangle the mess made by inproper strategy and was merely wondering, "What happens if i get ganked like i did with EVERYONE fireing upon me and how do i prevent it?" Beltantis answered my question with the first post about the priority and specific hardeners, however, i beg to differ that some missions use all damage types. Overall, i do have enough SP to do the mission, however, i like to be excessively careful. Afterall, whats the point of making 30 mill in the day if you blow up a ship worth 150mill and only get reimbersed for 100? Semper Fi
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Harrent Beltantis answered my question with the first post about the priority and specific hardeners, however, i beg to differ that some missions use all damage types. Overall, i do have enough SP to do the mission, however, i like to be excessively careful. Afterall, whats the point of making 30 mill in the day if you blow up a ship worth 150mill and only get reimbersed for 100? Yeah, tanking is important. Need to work on those cap skills. Regarding omni-tanking (invulns) those sorts of missions tend to be the exception rather than the rule. I'll switch to invulns for those but in the general case I stick with mission specific.
Rothgar Detris	Posted - 2008.10.03 00:04:00 - [59] I have to say.. The Drake is a bit of a spoiler. It is a LOT easier to tank than almost any other ship. The Raven is an extremely versitile ship, but needs higher skills and decent equipment, along with good planning and tactics, to decently solo lvl 4 missions. I would actually strongly advocate for Cruise Missile Specialization and higher t2 Medium Drones as a must. Long range skills can also be a big assist, allowing you to enter from farther off, and pick off ships before they can start doing any serious damage. By the time you have gotten to Raven, You SHOULD be qualified for most (if not all) T2 equipment, especially shields and engineering. And you will occasionally need to leave the field, recharge, and return. I can't stress enough the importance of good T2 equipment in a Raven, becuase it does not, and never will, have the shielding/protecting of the Drake. Therefore, you need to think more offensively than defensively eith the Raven, as that is what it is designed for.
Azeryn	Posted - 2008.10.03 12:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Harrent Just wondering overall what would be the best route. I have ran IV's in a Ferox before and then in the Raven i had before blowing up, so im not a stranger to the deadly dance that you play while in a IV. I have seen other people in corp untangle the mess made by inproper strategy and was merely wondering, "What happens if i get ganked like i did with EVERYONE fireing upon me and how do i prevent it?" NPCs need to acquire you as a target exactly as you do. Unless you charge ahead into a big group of them, you usually have all the time to detect that you fired upon the wrong target and aggroed the whole room or multiple groups (the overview lights up like a christmas tree). If you follow the number one advice in hard missions ("always be aligned and ready for warp out") you will have no trouble escaping. When you get back, aggro should be reset. Then only time I found myself in a really dire situation, was with my Drake when I foolishly fired upon the wrong frig in Worlds Collide lvl4 stage 2. I aggroed the whole room, and had about 5 frigs scramming me (since I did not follow the golden rule, and lost time to align). Thanks to the overpowered drake passive tank I survived just long enough to kill the frigates and warp out, with about 5% shields and already some armor down the drain. Originally by: Harrent Beltantis answered my question with the first post about the priority and specific hardeners, however, i beg to differ that some missions use all damage types. Mission specific hardeners cover about 80% kill missions in caldari space, giving far more protection than a couple of invuls. Sure, some missions put you against npcs that deal every single type of damage, but usually you can find a breakdown of the damage in percentage. A single invul is usually enough to cover the 2 lower dps damage types, leaving to the single dmg-type hardeners the task of keeping most of the damage out. It works really well, and only takes a few minutes to refit your ship accordingly. 2 or 3 invuls are lazy and somewhat effective, but you can always do better with focused hardeners. If in doubt (and you should be!) use EFT (Eve Fitting Tool), replicate the setup you are using in-game, then setup the damage profiles by right-clicking in the "defence" box. Guristas for example deal about 75% kin 25% therm, Serpentis 50% kin 50% therm. You can find all the percentages easily using google. By selecting the "Guristas" damage profile, you will get the idea of how much dps your fit can take from those npcs. If it is under 400 you will probably have problems. Over 600 usually means it will be a cakewalk. Originally by: Harrent Overall, i do have enough SP to do the mission, however, i like to be excessively careful. Afterall, whats the point of making 30 mill in the day if you blow up a ship worth 150mill and only get reimbersed for 100? Well sure, if you get blown up often then there is no gain in doing harder (but better paying) missions. My point is that, apart from a few dps-intensive missions, most lvl4 are easy (but long) to complete even with few SP. And net you so much more isk for the time spent. I still believe you could easily do them with little risk just by reading the mission reports and fitting you ship in EFT making sure it can whitstand the incoming dps from the enemies you will find in each time.

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