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Elirel
Alpha.Tech
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Posted - 2008.10.02 03:37:00 -
[1]
Arazu was never overpowered and there was no need to nerf it into oblivion. CCP please restore it to the pre-nerf strength and make ewar more diverse and interesting.
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Escobar Noreaga
Amarr
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.02 04:08:00 -
[2]
it was very overpowered, till they hit the damps with a freight train.
i disagree they need a boost, maybe some tweeking.
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Arvald
Caldari
Ninjas N Pirates
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Posted - 2008.10.02 04:13:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Escobar Noreaga
it was very overpowered, till they hit the damps with a freight train.
i disagree they need a boost, maybe some tweeking.
no it wasnt, damps were overpowerd on every other ship, they worked jsut fine on the ships they were made for now they barely work at all. yes the gallent recons (and the celestis and keres) need to be buffed
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jbob2000
Gallente
Pernicious Creed
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Posted - 2008.10.02 05:47:00 -
[4]
Yep, as someone who is fully specced for an arazu, I was a bit bumped to find that 3 of my jdamps couldn't do shit to anything now. The change to warp scramblers might help the ship, but really, they only put faction scrams out to 20km, which is still way too close for an ewar ship (how far do falcons sit away from the fight?)
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Esstia
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Posted - 2008.10.02 20:54:00 -
[5]
/signed
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.02 21:14:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/10/2008 21:14:57
Remote damps were getting crazy on small gangs. But the arazu wasnt too bad, if anything, a slightly less powerful version of the falcon.
But after taking away scan res and targeting range, the arazu just doesnt have the ummph it used to. I say allow the arazu/lach's RSD's to inflict both stat penalties, but with the present values.
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 Friends Forever |
Waxau
Arbitrary Freedom
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Posted - 2008.10.02 21:33:00 -
[7]
Arazu imo was SLIGHTLY (ever so slightly) overpowered. But not to any real worry. However, if the arazu was left where it was when the falcon got boosted, then there would be no whines for the falcon, or for the arazu. And it was a mistake many pointed out at the time, and all has come true.
Arazu needs a boost again. Regardless.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2008.10.02 21:45:00 -
[8]
I love these threads. Honestly we can't have enough of them.
The Arazu was perfect. It could lock down most ships 1v1 (as long as they were slower and/or lacked FoFs), but couldn't kill them unless the other pilot was a complete idiot. But once you got to more than one opponent, things got really hairy. Powerful at what it was intended for, but very fragile and vulnerable. Forced to operate at realtively close range, but without the tank, dps, or overwhelming speed to last there. It's ewar disabled opponents, but never completely shut them down. It was so incredibly well balanced for a recon. Ability to disable, but lacking the ability to kill a competent pilot and easily killed itself.
Then CCP went and made changes. It's funny how they talk about all the amount of testing that they want to do for patches. It takes soooo long because they need to address so many factors. And yet when it came to the damp nerf, they said they never even bothered to look at the Celestis line (check the archived dev blog/interviews if you don't believe me). WTF?!! After the fact when the ships were made completely f-ing useless, they proudly proclaimed that they were "working as intended". Great.
And (as always when this topic comes up) I'd like to once again reccommend that CCP go fornicate themselves for what they did to a great ship.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2008.10.02 23:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Waxau
Arazu imo was SLIGHTLY (ever so slightly) overpowered. But not to any real worry. However, if the arazu was left where it was when the falcon got boosted, then there would be no whines for the falcon, or for the arazu. And it was a mistake many pointed out at the time, and all has come true.
Arazu needs a boost again. Regardless.
What are you talking about? The problem was the RSD not the recons of the Gallente. The change that threw Arazu out the window was the change on the RSD without tweaking the bonuses on the Gallente ewar ships.
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Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Rellik B00n
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.03 00:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
The change that threw Arazu out the window was the change on the RSD without tweaking the bonuses on the Gallente ewar ships.
we have a winner.
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LadyLubU2
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.03 00:14:00 -
[11]
Boost Arazu/Lachesis! Nerf Falcon!
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Noelle Fay
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.03 06:03:00 -
[12]
and another /sign
Wake up CCP, give some love to the 'razu.
-- -- -- -- -- -- --
The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.03 06:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Waxau
Arazu imo was SLIGHTLY (ever so slightly) overpowered. But not to any real worry. However, if the arazu was left where it was when the falcon got boosted, then there would be no whines for the falcon, or for the arazu. And it was a mistake many pointed out at the time, and all has come true.
Arazu needs a boost again. Regardless.
Agreed.
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Kesper North
Caldari
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration
Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.10.03 07:00:00 -
[14]
Are you the pilot of the Arazu I just popped? :)
(giving belt-gankers a nasty ewar suprise is fun!)
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Asuka SoryuLangley
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Posted - 2008.10.03 07:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
I love these threads. Honestly we can't have enough of them.
The Arazu was perfect. It could lock down most ships 1v1 (as long as they were slower and/or lacked FoFs), but couldn't kill them unless the other pilot was a complete idiot. But once you got to more than one opponent, things got really hairy. Powerful at what it was intended for, but very fragile and vulnerable. Forced to operate at realtively close range, but without the tank, dps, or overwhelming speed to last there. It's ewar disabled opponents, but never completely shut them down. It was so incredibly well balanced for a recon. Ability to disable, but lacking the ability to kill a competent pilot and easily killed itself.
Then CCP went and made changes. It's funny how they talk about all the amount of testing that they want to do for patches. It takes soooo long because they need to address so many factors. And yet when it came to the damp nerf, they said they never even bothered to look at the Celestis line (check the archived dev blog/interviews if you don't believe me). WTF?!! After the fact when the ships were made completely f-ing useless, they proudly proclaimed that they were "working as intended". Great.
And (as always when this topic comes up) I'd like to once again reccommend that CCP go fornicate themselves for what they did to a great ship.
True! Every single word deserves to be read and everyone should read it.
CCP too!
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Endo Dy
Gallente
Enrave
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.03 07:29:00 -
[16]
/me votes rename topic to Fix Celestis/Lachesis/Arazu RSD issues 
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Elirel
Alpha.Tech
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Posted - 2008.10.03 14:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Endo Dy
/me votes rename topic to Fix Celestis/Lachesis/Arazu RSD issues
;)
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Zombie27
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:04:00 -
[18]
Make RSD chance-based then u can start to talk about bostin it till then stfu. Remember kids ecm is CHANCE-BASED!!!!!!
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zombie27
Make RSD chance-based then u can start to talk about bostin it till then stfu. Remember kids ecm is CHANCE-BASED!!!!!!
stealth ECM whine detected.
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mentalmonkey
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:18:00 -
[20]
/signed
I REALLY want to fly recon ships and as I'm primarily gallente that means the lachesis / Arazu and ATM I just keep putting it off as they look fairly ineffective. I don't want FOTM, they just need to be viable, most of the time I'm more useful in almost anything else from my hangar than I would be in a Gal recon so not a lot of incentive to train them right now.
I'm not sure about the fix, obvious choice is greater % bonus to SD effectiveness, but A new script with similar stats to the SD of old would be nice (both range and lock time with a 50-60% effectiveness for both) |
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:32:00 -
[21]
I loved my 'zu, but they definitely destroyed her. She was fine by herself - but I will grant that damps were extremely powerful on unbonused ships. Of course, now they're entirely useless on unbonused ships....
I wish CCP would decide whether they want crowd control in the game or not. :-/
-Liang |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I wish CCP would decide whether they want crowd control in the game or not. :-/
-Liang
Crowd control should be a flavor, not the main course. |
Psorion
Black Nova Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: mentalmonkey
/signed
I REALLY want to fly recon ships and as I'm primarily gallente that means the lachesis / Arazu and ATM I just keep putting it off as they look fairly ineffective. I don't want FOTM, they just need to be viable, most of the time I'm more useful in almost anything else from my hangar than I would be in a Gal recon so not a lot of incentive to train them right now.
I'm not sure about the fix, obvious choice is greater % bonus to SD effectiveness, but A new script with similar stats to the SD of old would be nice (both range and lock time with a 50-60% effectiveness for both)
Better to train for the Rapier or Falcon TBH. Even the Curse is better than the Razu atm. Razu needs its role bonus boosted or scan res/recalibration delay reduced ala Stealth Bomber. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Crowd control should be a flavor, not the main course.
If CC is merely a flavor, it's essentially ineffective, and you would serve yourself and your gang better by being in a damage ship.
Should *everyone* be flying around in CC ships? No, they shouldn't - but nor should it be almost braindead easy to determine that you shouldn't fly one except on the third phase of the moon when it's blue, the sky is pink, it's storming without rain, and lightening strikes a white tree 25.26663 meters from you.
Most of your rhetoric is geared towards making CC as above.
-Liang |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Most of your rhetoric is geared towards making CC as above.
-Liang
Not really, I'd much rather like a rock, paper, scissors system. Problem right now is that ECM is a joker that works all the time and everywhere. As defense, offense and scouting even. You'll never go wrong by bringing falcons. Same with dps. Never can have too much. I'd rather have balance go towards giving most power to mixed fleets. Mixed fleet will have rocks, papers and scissors and when they face a monotone gang of papers or alike they will kill them. Right now low sec win button is BS+ECM and in 0.0 its nano+ECM. How do you counter these ships? By using the same fleet composition. A start would be to make a new shipclass that has a pure anti EW role. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.03 22:03:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/10/2008 22:04:18
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Not really, I'd much rather like a rock, paper, scissors system. Problem right now is that ECM is a joker that works all the time and everywhere. As defense, offense and scouting even. You'll never go wrong by bringing falcons. Same with dps. Never can have too much. I'd rather have balance go towards giving most power to mixed fleets. Mixed fleet will have rocks, papers and scissors and when they face a monotone gang of papers or alike they will kill them. Right now low sec win button is BS+ECM and in 0.0 its nano+ECM. How do you counter these ships? By using the same fleet composition. A start would be to make a new shipclass that has a pure anti EW role.
Making a new shipclass probably isn't the right answer - but the right answer could be AOE "gang mods" for fitting on battlecruisers. You could have sensor strength, scan res, targeting range, sig radius, and many other things applied.
-Liang
Ed: And related to the subject at hand - Boost the Celestis family, because damps simply *suck*... and like was said earlier in the thread: boosting the falcon at the same time as nerfing damps was a classic example of a knee-jerk reaction to the last tournament.
--
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2008.10.03 22:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
A start would be to make a new shipclass that has a pure anti EW role.
An interesting idea. And one that would perhaps be better suited to it's own thread, since this one is discussing the ineffectiveness of the Celestis shipline. Good luck on it.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.03 22:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Psorion
Originally by: mentalmonkey
/signed
I REALLY want to fly recon ships and as I'm primarily gallente that means the lachesis / Arazu and ATM I just keep putting it off as they look fairly ineffective. I don't want FOTM, they just need to be viable, most of the time I'm more useful in almost anything else from my hangar than I would be in a Gal recon so not a lot of incentive to train them right now.
I'm not sure about the fix, obvious choice is greater % bonus to SD effectiveness, but A new script with similar stats to the SD of old would be nice (both range and lock time with a 50-60% effectiveness for both)
Better to train for the Rapier or Falcon TBH. Even the Curse is better than the Razu atm. Razu needs its role bonus boosted or scan res/recalibration delay reduced ala Stealth Bomber.
"Even" the Curse? Damb, I'm all in favour of the Arazu getting an EW boost, but trying to justify it by saying that it's not as good as the most pwnsauce T2 cruiser there is kind of grates...
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