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Thabiso
Merchants of the Golden Goose
4
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:so ive tested its
it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita).
just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it)
Is this working as intended?
What kind of slow ass mission running are you up to? A good farmer with noctis support should pull 60-100m depending on how "lucky" he is - back in the day when I did mission running (well yesterday, we just moved to WH space; YAY!) I was running on 6 agents, usually farming on 4 of them - peak would be around the 100m mark and on bad days around 50m mark per hour.
A good mining op should max around 20m; in other words, I'd expected mission running to pull in 3-5 times more than your mining. And yes, it does make sense - a totally pimped out mission runner can easily cost 3-4 billion isk (think officer and faction modules) and running at risk; a mining op is only in for about a billion and the risk is almost zero. |
Abim Starkiller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:Abim Starkiller wrote:so ive tested its
it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita).
just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it)
Is this working as intended? What kind of slow ass mission running are you up to? A good farmer with noctis support should pull 60-100m depending on how "lucky" he is - back in the day when I did mission running (well yesterday, we just moved to WH space; YAY!) I was running on 6 agents, usually farming on 4 of them - peak would be around the 100m mark and on bad days around 50m mark per hour. A good mining op should max around 20m; in other words, I'd expected mission running to pull in 3-5 times more than your mining. And yes, it does make sense - a totally pimped out mission runner can easily cost 3-4 billion isk (think officer and faction modules) and running at risk; a mining op is only in for about a billion and the risk is almost zero.
You sir are a idiot. THERE IS NO RISK RUNNING LEVEL 4s none at ALL you cant die in a level 4 mission, thier is more chance of geting your hulk ganked in a high sec belt than dieing in a level 4 mission. Thier is zero risk and you dont need those faction mods you just need to know what your doing. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
584
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Some things in EVE make more money than other things. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
388
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant.
So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is:
- move L4 missions to lowsec - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low - nerf module drops from missions - nerf reprossing yield severely, like 50% (this not only makes mining more lucrative, but also forces null industrials to rethink their processes - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec - revamp mission/anom/plex NPC AI, remove their damage type restrictions and make all spawns random and with huge variance - multiply faction NPC numbers in hisec, add them to low as well and give them the ability to pod outlaws - give NPCs cap and other normal player ship properties - introduce ninja mining ships - increase jump freighter fuel costs (a lot) - buff black ops battleships
Then to counter mining bots:
- apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes
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Abim Starkiller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
Roime wrote:Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant.
So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is:
- move L4 missions to lowsec - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low - nerf module drops from missions - nerf reprossing yield severely, like 50% (this not only makes mining more lucrative, but also forces null industrials to rethink their processes - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec - revamp mission/anom/plex NPC AI, remove their damage type restrictions and make all spawns random and with huge variance - multiply faction NPC numbers in hisec, add them to low as well and give them the ability to pod outlaws - give NPCs cap and other normal player ship properties - introduce ninja mining ships - increase jump freighter fuel costs (a lot) - buff black ops battleships
Then to counter mining bots:
- apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes
sounds good to me... run for csm ill vote for you. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
389
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
Thanks, but unfortunately those changes are way too big to through... but one can dream.
I personally think hisec in it's current state was a huge mistake, that is now a burden for development of the game. We have too many people who are stuck with the idea of separate "PVE" and "PVP", grasp on false ideas of "opting out" and "consensual". That line of thinking comes mostly from other games I guess, where different servers have different rules.
Another part of the problem is the stupid NPC AI and properties, which results in people fitting differently for shooting red crosses, and thus becoming weak against human opponents. Transition to lowsec would be much easier if you would fly a real combat ship in to NPCing as well.
We have only one server. There needs to be a starter zone where you can accommodate to the harsh universe, skill up and make contacts, but after that people should be encouraged to dive into the deep end. |
BeforetheStorm90
The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis
15
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance.
Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS.
how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking.
An activity that requires a very small amount of attention receives a small amount of isk. An activity that requires a more moderate amount of attention receives a more moderate amount of isk. Seems like it's balanced to me. |
Kalathia Eginald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance.
Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS.
how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking.
That's right as IPs never change. Oh sorry they do that is why IP bans are useless. The only thing that could possibly work, and that's at a stretch, would be IP range bans which then becomes collective punishment which is a disgusting way to act. Even then there are proxies.
The majority of domestic customers have dynamic IPs, it's cheaper I can have a static IP if I want for an extra -ú5 a month. If I was banned by IP I just turn of my router wait 15 minutes turn it back on a hey presto new IP. Even if I don't turn of the router my ISP reesets it every couple of weeks automatically.
Even with a "static" IP all I would have to do is pay my provider for a new one. Then whoever gets my old one is banned for doing nothing. Now how would you feel if that person was you?
Can you just see the threads of people who can't log on because the IP they got was banned?
As to how there an be so many it's easy. Lazy cheating scum. They are the bane of every game with an economy, yes even Runescape has them and that is a basic entry level MMO.
Different things make different amounts of currency, it is just the way it is. |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
112
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Posted - 2012.03.30 07:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
If everyone did more stuff that'll involve losing ships then mining would make more money.
I've watched this since incursions started and there's been a worrying rate of inflation because people get into their pimped out incursion ship and never lose it and the watch their wallets get fatter and fatter.
If you're sitting on more than a billion and you're not saving for something specific, you're doing eve wrong. |
Chokichi Ozuwara
Lucky Dragon Convenience
57
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Posted - 2012.03.30 08:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Somehow this must all be Chribba's fault. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
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Shadowsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2012.03.30 08:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Roime wrote:Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant.
The mission bots would just switch to lv3 missions. Or even more mining bots.
Quote: So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is:
- move L4 missions to lowsec
Because making CCP lose a large number of subs when they have financing problems is a good idea.
Quote: - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low
Yeah, let's nerf logistics, they're not enough of a chore already. I'm not even sure it's possible to go from Amarr to Jita without going throught a 0.5.
Quote: - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec
Which will help the shortage of R&D slots a ton.
Overall, your suggestions look like you want ot catter only to YOUR vision of what Eve should be, while not thinking a second about the after-effects they would cause. This is a child's approach to balancing.
Quote: Then to counter mining bots:
- apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes
That might counter them a whole week. Then they'd find a way. Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players. |
Marduk Nibiru
Physical Chaos
138
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 08:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:so ive tested its
it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita).
just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it)
Is this working as intended?
I think you can make more blitzing. |
BeforetheStorm90
The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis
15
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Posted - 2012.03.30 08:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote: Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players.
I'm going to say that that sounds very much like a discredit to the game's pvp then a credit to the bot makers. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2939
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Posted - 2012.03.30 08:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:Somehow this must all be Chribba's fault. I'm so fat I affect the gravity of solar systems making your ships navigation system go weird in turn making you lost in space.
/c
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
59
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
lol lvl4 missions |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
I still think there's a total imballance to the isk I can make from spinning my ship |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
390
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 09:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote: Overall, your suggestions look like you want ot catter only to YOUR vision of what Eve should be, while not thinking a second about the after-effects they would cause.
I completely agree with the first part, if it wouldn't be MY vision, why would I speak for it? But of course I have thought about the consequences, they obviously are the reason to make these changes. Whether or not you you like them is purely subjective. However, I think my vision is very close to the basic concept of EVE:
Quote:The Sandbox is the game world of EVE combined with the persistent actions of thousands upon thousands of players who interact with one another in a single-server environment.
Your actions in the Sandbox can lead to the destruction of starships, the creation of a thriving corporation or the doom of an empire. Every action taken by every player affects the state of the Sandbox, and through it those actions affect every other player.
The web of action and reaction in EVE leads to emergent gameplay where a single shot, business deal or even just a word can determine the destiny of thousands.
Do you notice how badly mission-running conflicts with the idea of sandbox? Completing missions does not have persistent effects on the universe, or any other player. It only changes the state of the mission runner in relation to NPC entities via standings, and if you don't sell the mission loot or LP store items, but keep them or reprocess and manufacture ammunition or ships for your own use out of them, you never ever fleetingly touch the sandbox. It's sad that this is possible.
You can run the same missions over and over and over and over again and behold! Worlds Collide again! What's wrong with the Damsel, she never learns? And thousands of others saved the same damn Damsel already tonight. This is not part of a persistent world.
Quote:This is a child's approach to balancing.
Where did I mention balancing?
Quote:That might counter them a whole week. Then they'd find a way. Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players.
There are no absolute preventive measures against the human mind, that is why we dominate other species- we innovate, adapt and create without the need to wait for natural selection happening over generations. My suggestion could only make screen-scraping bots more complicated to get running optimally, why not make them work for it? Code-injected bots it obviously can't counter, but most importantly it would make mining more fun and interesting to human players- maybe this decreases the incentive to bot?
My view is that the greatest reward that a sandbox can offer is sense of achievement of creating something out of nothing, by yourself. This includes a huge variety of both direct game-mechanic related things, but also the social aspects, and innovation- winning the mechanics with your brain... and the destruction of things other people create.
I don't feel that EVE needs to cater to people unwilling to step into the sandbox. These people seem to be reliant on devs to continuously provide them with new, shiny content, while they should be 100% protected from whole open-world universe. While those who embrace the sandbox create content for themselves and others, and only wish for the devs to finetune the existing mechanics. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
471
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:so ive tested its
it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita).
just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it)
Is this working as intended?
I agree 100% Drop hisec mission running rewards by 45%. While we are at it, drop hisec incursions by at least the same amount.
Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
675
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:24:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ban all bot ant the prices will go up, like they are now. |
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
35
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
Roime wrote:I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec. And I know that this statement is wrong!
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
390
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 10:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
Arrs Grazznic wrote:Roime wrote:I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec. And I know that this statement is wrong!
Well, you are correct, but wouldn't you agree that it is more provocative than "there is some controversy regarding the current location of level 4 missions" |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
512
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Posted - 2012.03.30 11:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mining needs love, but what it doesn't need is: a) higher income in highsec - that's the 'noob starting area' and trade-/logistic zone, or b) better mining vessels - they're already really powerful.
The silly part is that people can do 'endgame' isk in a 'safe' environment. Make it appealing to mine in null, and let the highsec income be a small portion of similar level NPCing in null, that's it. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
390
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
I seem to have left these unanswered:
Shadowsword wrote: The mission bots would just switch to lv3 missions. Or even more mining bots.
Level 3s should be balanced so that it's impossible to generate enough isk for a PLEX in a month then. Suicide gankers can keep the mining bot issue from getting out of hand :)
Quote: Because making CCP lose a large number of subs when they have financing problems is a good idea.
I doubt it would cause mass unsubs. Those who love EVE would adapt, don't worry. And CCP is doing fine financially according to the latest publication on that matter: http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/
Quote: Yeah, let's nerf logistics, they're not enough of a chore already. I'm not even sure it's possible to go from Amarr to Jita without going throught a 0.5.
Why is going through 0.4 a problem for you? We get only random direct access to hisec, and handle everyday logistics via lowsec.
Quote:Which will help the shortage of R&D slots a ton.
What shortage? There are free slots in lowsec stations all the time. That's where I did my research before we anchored a lab in our pos.
Attitude, that could be your problem. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
457
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 11:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Those who loved EvE before hi sec and its facilities were all of 5k concurrent players. I am sure CCP will definitely want to revert back there.
Roime wrote: Why is going through 0.4 a problem for you? We get only random direct access to hisec, and handle everyday logistics via lowsec.
Why is missioning a problem for you?
Roime wrote: What shortage? There are free slots in lowsec stations all the time. That's where I did my research before we anchored a lab in our pos.
I live across high and low sec and both have from 10 (low sec) to 30+ days queue in their stations. Not everybody live in the butth0le of the universe, low sec included. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
DonHel
Aliastra Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:so ive tested its
it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita).
just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it)
Is this working as intended?
sounds like it is working to me. Rats and missions have a set amount of isk on them, minerals rise and fall to the players demand. Also sounds to me like you were probably clearing a hi sec belt, of course it's going to suck... get a mining fleet in a wormhole or hook up wih a 0.0 corp wih mining ops... you will see a major jump in that. Back when I used to mine null for a ship builder with one of my alts I was making a killing hitting the abc ores |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
Bots are bad.... and clearly spending 120mil for a megathron is good -¼-¼ |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
391
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 13:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Why so aggressive?
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Those who loved EvE before hi sec and its facilities were all of 5k concurrent players. I am sure CCP will definitely want to revert back there.
You are implying that hisec has caused the popularity, which I don't think you can prove in any way.
Quote:Why is missioning a problem for you?
I tried to make my view very clear in the previous post- it's the only part of EVE completely detached from the rest of the sandbox. It's not a major personal problem for me. Missions and the culture born around them seem to create tensions among the player base.
Quote: I live across high and low sec and both have from 10 (low sec) to 30+ days queue in their stations. Not everybody live in the butth0le of the universe, low sec included.
That would imply that most people don't care for the queues, and can plan their operations around the limitations of the environment. Or just build a POS and behold, free slots.
But thanks for your input, very valuable indeed.
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Keen Fallsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hmm. You are able to mine in this game ? I didn't know...
But seriously CCP broke this game so badly that it is as it is - won't be better.. So yeah OP. In some point in history CCP started to be PVP based coz its cheaper to make few ships for few Euros then add PVE content.. |
Anthemius Heb
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Abim Starkiller wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. Thier is no chance of loseing a ship none at all. Im fine with low sec missions making isk as thier is reel risk. And trust me you have more chance of having your hulk ganked by players in high sec, than a few rats killing your mission runner unless your ******** and newb.
Sorry, we all pay the same price to play the game. Your style of play is not more important than anybody elses. You are not superior. Low sec mission running is nonsensical as missions have to be run in a PvE fit ship and the gankers will no doubt be using PvP fit ships so you're giving yourself a death sentence.
Unless of course you think people are going to pay for an escort of PvP ships to watch over them as they run missions, therefore reducing the income made from said missions to pay for protection.
It just isn't going to happen. Sorry. People like to play the game running missions, occasional mining and hauling and maybe a little PvP thrown in sometimes. Not everybody wants to PvP all the time. If you don't like that then I'm afraid you're gonna have to just suck it up and carry on playing or find another game. |
Josefius
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
58
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
Level V Mining missions unbalanced? I never ran those. You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Winston Churchill |
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